'Birdcage' help

[spikelunch]

Hello all,

My first post here and I'm very new to the piano so go easy on me.

I've recently bought a piano that is in need of a fair bit of work which I intend to do myself - the catch is the piano in question is a 'birdcage' overdamped type.

Perhaps a bit about myself and what I'm looking for from the piano may be useful - I'm a self taught, play by ear musician with my main interest being in traditional rock instruments (guitar, bass and drums) and the analogue modular synthesizer. I'm not looking to learn the piano in the traditional sense and don't expect to be doing anything too complicated on it musically speaking but I would like it tuned to A 440Hz and I'm also interested in experimenting with prepared piano. In the past, I've always maintained and modified my instruments myself and I have also built a few things from scratch such as amplifiers and electric guitar effects pedals.

So, my piano has a couple of issues but the most troublesome that I can see is down to some straight wire springs that have either lost there springiness or snapped all together (see picture) which means that the offending hammers do not return once the key has been depressed. I guess one solution would be to have all the action parts with the damaged springs lumped together at one end of the keyboard so that I have a broken section towards the treble end however, I ideally would like all keys to play.



(Click here to see the full image => http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p189 ... 050056.jpg )

I've had a good online search for spares but as yet, I have had no luck. Can anyone help or point me in the right direction here?

I think the other options would be to try and fashion my own replacement springs or work out another way to get the hammers to return.

I appreciate this may be a lot of effort for a junk shop piano but I really like the tone of the instrument and feel it would sit well in my compositions.

I look forward to your replies.
Mike

[Colin Nicholson]

Hi Mike

Firstly, whereabouts do you live?

This is a 'spring & loop' mechanism (as opposed to the more modern 'tape' mechanism), and depending on the length & diameter of the wire, they may still be available, but some parts are now obsolete and have to be made by hand.

The coil part of the spring rests on a small piece of felt, then the end is threaded through a tiny hole into the hammer butt, then either twisted around & back on itself to form a loop, or just pressed & glued into the wood.

Sometimes the loops break aswell, and these are more tricky to replace, as you need to remove the hammer notch leather, then drill (or ease) out the tiny wooden wedges at either side of the hole. If the loop has broken, they can easily be replaced. You have to take care removing the leather, as it sometimes crumbles away, and if you fit new leather, you need to punch a small hole in it to poke the loop through.

If you can tell me the length of the spring - from the centre of the coil to the 'hook' part (in cm or mm), I'll see if I have any spare ones. I also have a supply of loop cord if needed - and sometimes with new springs fitted, these break off the old loops coz of the new tension.

Whatever repairs you do, always try to make a small jig of some sort to measure the length of the loop (piece of wood with a pin in it) - if the loop is too short or too long, the spring might not work correctly.

If you need more info on the repairs, I have detailed notes on how to do the loops - so just send me an email: aatuners@hotmail.com

There would be a small charge for the springs - not much.
Let me know how many springs/ loops are broken.
You may be best to replace the whole lot, as at a later date, others will break.

Another thing, you say the hammer doesn't return? This may also be the small centre pin inside the hammer flange (the hinge part). Hold the hammer by the flange only (the small square bit), then swing the hammer - it should swing freely around 3 - 5 times, then stop. If it doesn't swing at all, or only once - the flange needs repinning, and you'll need to call out a tuner to do that, as it requires special tools. If the note does not work at all, then the spring may have broken somewhere inside the coils, and the jack will collapse and not make contact with the leather notch.

Hope that helps......

CN

[Johnkie]

Hi Mike,
You look as thought you have a real challenge here, but nevertheless you should (with great care) be able to manage with the correct parts. If you contact Fletcher & Newman (01322 226441) and ask if you can purchase a set of "Jack or loop springs" item number 677 in their catalogue, and I would also suggest getting some "loop cord" at the same time .... just in case the loops get broken when you try to hook them up.

You could of course fashion your own spring making jig and buy only the brass wire as most of us professionals would do, but it's not worth the time and effort for just a few replacements. Good luck ... let us know how you get on.

[Colin Nicholson]

If F&N have any in stock, they do 2 sizes of "Jack or loop" springs:-

677A = 48mm
677B = 51mm

Thats measuring from the coil to the hook

Priced around £10 for a full set of 90
Loop cord - 22 metres - item number 645 (bobbin) priced around £4

Prices are trade/ ex VAT & pp.
Loop cord is either black or white & very strong!

[Johnkie]

Looking at the picture I wouldn't think there would be any problem with having to remove the notch leather to get at the loop - I generally find that the leather remains clear of the loop hole - but by 'eck I hate having the fiddle of replacing springs, and/or loops, and then the joy of trying to get the spring to engage into the loop .... holding torches, springing tools, and having to wear glasses to see the damn things jumping all over the place. Thank the Lord that I don't come across this very often these days.

[Johnkie]

There you go Mark ............. Collin & Johnkie have you sorted in a flash .... what nice people we are. Please send all donations to

[spikelunch]

Thank you both very much.

I have approximately 6 that have broken but they're all very brittle so I'd rather replace them all. I think the loops are all ok but I will have a thorough inspection later on today.

From the centre of the spring coil to where the loop attaches, they are 51mm long. I will give F&N a call and take it from there. Fingers crossed!

I'm in Swansea by the way.

Cheers,
Mike

[Colin Nicholson]

Johnkie.... don't speak too soon!!

I had to replace some loops on an old Rubinstein about 2 yrs ago, and the loops poked right through the middle of the leathers! and yes, they just crumbled into bits. I suppose you could cut a small slit for the loop, but like you & me - I used my punch wadding kit - handy bit of kit!!

When you assemble these damn things, you have to connect the spring first to the loop with the lever loose in your hand, then offer the jack up, then tighten up the flange - but yeh, a fiddly little tw**t of a job!

Best way to remove the tiny wedges I found was to impact them out with the back of a centre pin in a pin vice - then can use the again, but Mike may already be popping into Tescos for some kebab/ cocktail sticks!!

[Colin Nicholson]

Mike,

You'll never be able to tell the condition or 'breaking point' of the loops just by looking at them - just the ones that have broken. Over 80 - 100 years of humidity & temp changes, these will be very weak & easily break with new springs on. As a test, grab a hammer from the top end (a note you don't use as much), and with some nose pliers, just tug the loop gently - not too much. If its OK, they may last, but usually where the spring hook has been against the loop for many years, this causes an indentation in the loop, along with bits of corrosion from the spring, and when it 'breaks free' from the spring, fitting a new spring usually snaps them.

But try them with the old loops first. Any bother, just give us a shout.

Colin

[spikelunch]

I've spoken to F&N and they do have 677B (51mm) in stock but they're strictly trade only.

Colin, do you have a set of 51mm springs I could buy of you or would you be prepared to order a set on my behalf?

Thanks,
Mike

[Colin Nicholson]

Mike, please send me your details on an email, and I'll see what I can do.

(Pls dont post it here on the forum)

Full name
Address & post code
email address
Mobile/ landline number

to:

aatuners@hotmail.com