Pianos placed on underfloor heating

[MarkGoodwinPianos]

I've been approach by a school who are looking for 1 or 2 U3 pianos that are to go into a music hall that is being refurbished. Part of the refurbishment includes underfloor heating throughout. They have asked my advice about this and I've said I'd ask around my technician friends to see if anyone has direct experience with this.

Will a piano lifesaver system help in this situation?
I wondered about supplying some sort of foil-coated matt that the piano could be placed on so that the heat is dispersed sideways and not allowed to go up through the piano.

I also wondered about suggesting that they leave a gap in their new underfloor heating in the area where the piano would be placed. That could help but the surrounding flooring would probably still share some heat with the flooring that is unheated.

Any further information and suggestions very welcome.
Thanks in advance
Mark

[NewAge]

I've been approach by a school who are looking for 1 or 2 U3 pianos that are to go into a music hall that is being refurbished. Part of the refurbishment includes underfloor heating throughout. They have asked my advice about this and I've said I'd ask around my technician friends to see if anyone has direct experience with this.

Will a piano lifesaver system help in this situation?
I wondered about supplying some sort of foil-coated matt that the piano could be placed on so that the heat is dispersed sideways and not allowed to go up through the piano.

I also wondered about suggesting that they leave a gap in their new underfloor heating in the area where the piano would be placed. That could help but the surrounding flooring would probably still share some heat with the flooring that is unheated.

Any further information and suggestions very welcome.
Thanks in advance
Mark

Mark,
I'll leave it to your fellow tech/experts to provide detailed comments. But briefly, these are mine.

We have underfloor heating in all rooms. Piano was placed on a fairly thick rug in an attempt to provide some 'insulation'.
In the winter months I noted that the relative humidity (RH) was going as low as 23% in the room the piano is located. This concerned me, and the piano's built-in hygrometer dropped to all-time lows of 33% (compared to 55-70% in spring/summer months). Also the tuning would drift-off a short while after each yearly two tunings). This prompted me to get a DamppChaser installed.

This winter which has been exceptionally cold and dry, I've frequently recorded 21% in the piano room, whilst the piano's built-in hygrometer has never dropped below 49% RH. I have compared and calibrated both the room and the piano hygrometers against a third (borrowed from the wine cellar) and they are within +- 1% so I'm reassured that the readings are correct.
So my layman's experience would say that a DC can only but help the RH to remain as constant as possible - even in a music hall.
One thing to note. You'd be advised to remind your client that a DC is not quite a fit&forget device. It requires regular topping -up, and also periodic changes of the absorbent pads - with mineral free water in my experience (more of this in a detailed later post).
As I intend to keep my piano (an upright) for many years, I feel the DC was a wise 'investment'.
Be interesting now to hear specialist comments.

[Colin Nicholson]

Some sound advice there, and not much to add in terms of "expertise" - pretty much summed things up. A hygrometer of course inside the piano will help to monitor (possibly screwed down depending on the school!)

I think in general Mark, anywhere where there is an "absorbant" amount of heat, and enough to put your slippers on with a drink of Horlicks, then I would advise the client that the piano will need to be tuned more frequently. If the Yams are new, even these need around 3-4 tunings a year under normal conditions. I tune a U3 every 6 months (about 10 years old), and the customer has underfloor heating - but he assures me it doesn't affect the piano, as its switched off most of the time.... (thats a way of saying I don't want to have to pay for extra tunings - so be done with.) However, its always a 'good' 6 beats down every time, and the bass is affected aswell. So perhaps in your warranty agreement, mention that it will need to be tuned & serviced around 3 times a year - though you probably are aware of that.

It could also depend on the size of the hall? if large, the heating may not have a dramatic effect on the piano than a smallish hall.

[Barrie Heaton]

I've been approach by a school who are looking for 1 or 2 U3 pianos that are to go into a music hall that is being refurbished. Part of the refurbishment includes underfloor heating throughout. They have asked my advice about this and I've said I'd ask around my technician friends to see if anyone has direct experience with this.

Will a piano lifesaver system help in this situation?
I wondered about supplying some sort of foil-coated matt that the piano could be placed on so that the heat is dispersed sideways and not allowed to go up through the piano.

Fletchers are doing a mat which is designed f to help with underfloor heating and pianos he was meant to send me one so I can put it up on the site. But ....the padded tin foil helps on upright

life savers are very good for uprights but the problem with schools is getting a person to monitor it, you will get some colt who will unplug it, then there is the problem of the annual electric test, most school will not pay the extra and don't want the agro

Barrie,

[mdw]

This has been gone over a number of times on the site however, Ive seen 3 pianos wrecked by UFCh but have fitted it at home and have no probs at all. All 3 pianos were in church/hall situations, new builds where the pipes are in massive concrete slabs. This type takes a day or so to put the heat in the slab but once heated the heat will keep coming through ( like it or not) for ages. Our home has the pipes running in heat spreader plates and heat up quicker and loose heat quicker. The 3 wrecked pianos were older but fully restored, our one at home is a new Kawai and i had a new Kemble before with no probs.
Just make the guarantee vauge enough ( like kemble and yamaha) that you can wriggle out if they wreck them . Plus remember in a school nobody cares about the pianos and they all treat them like c**p. You are kidding yourself if you think they will keep up filling a damp chaser. You would probably be better and more honest telling them to buy digitals and look on them as a 2 year disposable item.

[Colin Nicholson]

Unless its a reputable school with a music department (who preferably have a separate music room & piano booths), most pianos in a school hall will not be personally looked after & tuned regularly. After about 2 years, even if the warranty still exists, some schools have an 'external' pianist who either teaches on it, or just used for casual rehearsals - so when the piano needs tuning, the pianist rarely books the tuning, but they refer to the secretary/ admin dept. The piano is probably in desperate need of a tuning, but the school don't care! The 'office' then flick through the Yellow Pages and just pick a tuner at random; I have seen so many times going to a piano with another company's tuning sticker inside - but sometimes the last date was about 4 years ago!! - so we are all faced with this problem. Similar to buying a new car, after the warranty has expired, the customer might then find another more local garage to service their car. Also so many warranty agreements are never kept up to date, they elapse (even when I discovered vermin in a piano!) - and due to school fundings, the piano is last thing on their agenda - but of course during the summer hols, having extensive building & paintwork done....

[Gill the Piano]

No, they don't pick a tuner at random, they pick the cheapest! Or the one who happens to be in sitting on their hands rather than one who has plenty of work and is in demand! How often have you rung back following an answerphone enquiry only to be told accusingly that they found a tuner who was In...?:lol:

[vernon]

I can only offer anecdotal input.
We are often asked about the consequences of underfloor heating and honestly,despite all the postings here, can only offer suck -it- and see advice.
However, we have many clients with it and so far(last ten years) have had no problems at all with any.
Hence
I feel quite confident in advising customers that a new piano will be fine. And they all have so far.
Not scientific but pragmatic advice.

[Barrie Heaton]

No, they don't pick a tuner at random, they pick the cheapest! Or the one who happens to be in sitting on their hands rather than one who has plenty of work and is in demand! How often have you rung back following an answerphone enquiry only to be told accusingly that they found a tuner who was In...?:lol:

The secret is get in the good books of God in primary they tend to be there for years also helps if the Head is musically inclined. Get the mobile or email of the person who is head of music in secondary schools. IF the head of music is leaving find out who the new one is and make yourself known to them and tell the history of the piano If the new head of music is not a piano player and you don't have many grumpy visiting teachers then you will find that the pianos get neglected

When I take over a secondary school the first item on the agenda is get the tuning of the piano put on the maintenance budget not the music budget that way the teacher will say "Oh yes please do come !"

Barrie

God is the school sec. she who is all seeing and all knowing

[Gill the Piano]

[quote="Barrie Heaton]When I take over a secondary school the first item on the agenda is get the tuning of the piano put on the maintenance budget not the music budget that way the teacher will say "Oh yes please do come !"

Barrie

God is the school sec. she who is all seeing and all knowing[/quote]
...and the caretaker! Secretary and caretaker together know more about the school and have more power than the head ever will..
The maintenance budget thing is a brainwave, Barrie; I might push that one! Better than doing resuscitation every three years...

[Barrie Heaton]

...and the caretaker! Secretary and caretaker together know more about the school and have more power than the head ever will..
The maintenance budget thing is a brainwave, Barrie; I might push that one! Better than doing resuscitation every three years...

The augment goes... the guys who cut the grass, that is not put on the PE budget, the servicing of the computers in the schools is not put on the IT budget.

You need to work on the Head as well you may have to embellish it with a 3 year con at a fixed price... but if a school has 7 pianos and you are doing them twice a year after the second year........

Sadly a lot of school are dumping their pianos and not for Digital a CD


Barrie

[mdw]

You would probably be better and more honest telling them to buy digitals and look on them as a 2 year disposable item.

Makes hugely more sense for schools to get a digital as it needs virtually no maintance and will last for years.

Have you been in a secondary school in the last 15 years? I advise buy the lowest price digitals they can get and assume they will replace them every 2 years. Primay schools they might get a few more years out of but not in a secondary school.

[sussexpianos]

Ok, I have some experiance with schools and underfloor heating. The main thing is to see what floor it is, stone is the worst as it also stores it after the thing has switched off. Also if its on a themostat, and also if thats for the biluding or just that room. Is it on all the time? A dampchaser is required but I only recommend modern new pianos for underfloor heating. Get a hygrometre and leave it there for a week. I have a shool with readings of 19-89% RH with a twin tank system fitted !! They are filling them up every two days!!
If you are selling a piano to them, make sure you are covering yourself as to warranty, Large rug will disperse the heat slightly if its stone.

Im also with MDW, digitals last 1-2 years in most schools, I sold 3 Kawai CN2's and they lasted 2 years, its was my old school and its not rough!

I now get digital hygrometres off ebay and stick them under the pianos. That way you can show the people that you are not talking shhiiittt and even though they feel fine, it is dry! For £4, its worth it. I would also go on to say that all pianos should be fitted with them, then people would take more notice.
The other problem nowadays is wood burning stoves, they are getting more popular and us tuners are getting moaned about because the piano didnt stay long in tune! Thing everyone dosn't understand is that a piano is moving all the time and the average piano will go out after a few months without playing.