Metzler

[Chat]

Help

I have a Metzler baby grand in black mahogany.I am keen to date it but not sure if the number I have found is the correct one.

I found it on the underside - lying on the floor at the end of the keyboard etched in the wood. It is 124238

There is a sticker at the back on the inside which says Specially selected for Kent & Cooper Nottingham.

It looks quite generic, as in I have seen many look a likes. Tapered cabriolet legs art deco style.

I would very much appreciate any help at all which would convince my husband that we should keep it!

[Colin Nicholson]

Your piano is probably ebonised in black. Some veneers used were mahogany, but this was more expensive to produce, whereas a black ebonies casework was often used on less expensive woods.

The numbers you give under the keyboard are not a serial number, but a cabinet/ stock number, and there are no records of these kinds of numbers.

It sounds like it could be a London piano, but some were exported from Berlin, Germany. No dates or serial numbers are given as many old piano companies didn't keep records, or they were lost during the war(s).

The sticker Kent and Cooper will be the retailers/ shop who sold the piano - not the makers name.

Sounds early 1900's - a couple of photos may help, but impossible to tell without seeing the piano.
Does the piano have ivory keys? and does the name same "Metzler" alone, or "Metzler & Co." ? If the latter - it is more than likely an English make.

[Bill Kibby]

In the 1920s, Cramers took over the Metzler piano name, but the numbers don't seem to be in the Cramer sequence. Grands of the 1900s are notoriously difficult to date by appearance. If the action bears the name Herrburger Brooks, that puts it after 1919. Cabriolet legs don't quite line up in my brain with art deco. Kent & Cooper became limited in the late 1890s, so perhaps your piano is earlier? Have a look at pianogen.org

[Chat]

Thanks Bill

Here is a photo.

Sorry not so much cabriolet legs they are more deco.

It says just Metzler, inside and out. The keys are ivory but a few are broken off. We think 1920s-1930s. Here is a photo

[Colin Nicholson]

These are just square tapered legs - not cabriolet, and doesn't look Art Decor. With having ivory keys (or missing ivories) suggests before 1914, as around that period ivory was replaced.
If the fallboard lifts off easily (lid that covers the keys), you may see the action maker's name on the front of the hammer rest rail - but difficult to date in any case. Send a photo - it may be a spring & loop action, but there are lots of wooden capstans, it'll be a roller action. Bill may be able to throw some more light on the date. I would say though - not 1930's.

[Bill Kibby]

These square tapered legs (even if they are original) do not help with dates. I can see nothing in this picture that tells me if it is 1920 or 1950. I don't understand why Colin imagines that ivory was abandoned in 1914. Plastics were introduced in the 1860s, but ivory has never stopped abruptly. If you know how to remove the action safely (the working parts of the notes) it may be marked with the action makers' name and number, and I may be able to date this.

[Chat]

Thanks

I managed to lift off the lid. There is a mark which says Herrburger Brooks Ltd.

Does this help at all?

Many thx for taking the time to reply

[Bill Kibby]

As I said before, that indicates only that the piano was made after 1919. Herrburger & Brooks came together in 1920. I don't know if they were Ltdfrom the beginning, but they certainly were by 1926.

[Chat]

Hi

I just checked back. It appears to be after 1919 as per your earlier comment. The guy who pre owned it said his grandfather bought it. I thought he said in the 1930s but my husband thinks he said 1920s. I am investigating key removal to see if I can find more info.

I have re examined the keys. I am certain they are ivory as they are in 2 parts and there is a faint grain.

[Bill Kibby]

Ivory doesn't help us with a date, and it is very difficult to remove keys on a grand to look at them. There is also a serious risk of damage when you pull the action out. I wish there were ways to date grands of the 1900s, but they are almost always difficult.

[Chat]

We found some more numbers at the back of the top 2 keys on the top side.

They are 80619.