Richard Lipp & Sohn

[Antz]

I've acquired an old Richard Lipp upright. It stands 144cm tall (nearly 57 inches), and is overstrung & under-dampered.

There's a number on the top of the block of wood into which the top of the left hand side of the action sits: "10764". If this is the serial no. some websites suggest an 1880-85 manufacture date.

But I'm not sure if it's that old. The casework is very un-ornate, which is not what I expect of that era. In fact, some elements of the case design remind me more of art deco themes.

There's also a no. stamped into the soundboard: "459"

And finally, on the back of the action, there's another no. and (presumably) the maker's name: "9616 J.Keller Stuttgart"

I've put some photos of the piano on the web, including close-ups of the nos. and manufacturer's name, logo etc, and would welcome any advice as to its likely age and/or from where I might be able to source further information.

http://picasaweb.google.com/RealWorldDr ... LippPiano#

Regards,

[Gill the Piano]

The casework has been 'modernised'; in the days when the piano was THE status symbol of the home (like yer 98" plasmA screen doobrey now) it was a cheap way of keeping up with the Joneses without actually buying a new piano. So if you look at the back of the top door, you may well see the ghost of panelling; sometimes the original panelling is still there, just with a bit of wood put across it to produce the deco streamlined look. They took the mouldings off and sometimes changed the legs which 'support' the keyboard. So yes, the dates are probably correct(ish) - Bill will be more au fait with that - it's the box that's 'wrong'!

[Antz]

That makes a lot of sense, Gill the Piano.

I thought before I bought it that at least the top front panel, the knee panel and the legs had been changed - to me they look more 1930s than 1880s. What I'm still surprised by is the curves on the edge of the top lid, for example, and the rounded edges of the sides - but, I suppose they could have just removed the whole lid (which I presume would have originally been one that overhung the sides of the piano - i.e., like eaves on a house), and replaced it with the art deco, rounded edge one it has now.

The all wooden, relatively non-adjustable construction of the dampers would indicate an early construction date, I presume?

I'd still be keen to nail down a date, if anyone can help. I'd hoped that the serial number on the piano itself, combined with with the one on the action by J.Keller, might help date the piano a little more precisely.

Thanks in advance for any help anyone can give,

[Antz]

I've begun cleaning out the innards of this piano, and discovered some pencil markings under the bass keys. More photos here:

http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/RealWorld ... SCleanOut#

These markings include 13/8 written as a vertical fraction, followed by the numeral 81. See these two specific photos:

http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/RealWorld ... 0273943506
http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/RealWorld ... 1451043074

I've never seen an actual date written on a piano, but could this signify 13th Aug 1881 - which fits with what some have said the serial no. indicates for the piano's date of manufacture? Or is there an alternative explanation for that 13/8 81?

There is also what looks like an initial (perhaps), followed by a name, maybe "Brandt"(?) on the right hand side of the same piece of wood, but this is much harder to decipher than the numerals on the left. Was there any convention about somebody 'signing off' on a piano's construction, or what else might this be?

[Pianomate]

Looks like you at least need a new set of rail punchings (or retrieve the old ones from your vac bag!)

[Antz]

Old ones have all been carefully removed & set aside safely!

[vernon]

This was an old piano " modernised" in the 40s-50s by people like me who used to do them in sweat shops in Pianoland (Kentish Town London) after our day in one of the nearby piano factories.
The reason why they were done is two fold-
a) to make them look younger than they were and
b) because there was a 100% purchase tax on new pianos(to encourage foreign exchange) but none on secondhand so a "modern" looking ancient banger was half the price of a new piano.
There's a bit of social history for you.
I'm afraid the Lipp is not worth anything commercially, tho' maybe sentimentally

[doctorbaz]

Hi there! Congratulations on acquiring your Lipp! I've been a fan of this make for many years, but have never come across a 57" upright before. Must be fairly rare now, as probably very few of these very tall uprights were ever made. I know that many Lipps were sold to NZ and Australia when new.

I have a 1906 49" Lipp upright, serial number 26708. The number appears on the frame and als othe action assembly, in the same place as on yours. I suppose that means 10764 is consistent with your serial number and a manufacture date between 20-25 years earlier than mine, suggesting Lipp made around 15,000 pianos in that period.

A couple of other items that support a pre-1900 manufacture are very likely to have survived your Lipp's modernisation process. The fallboard transfer is a very ornate scripted font, which I've only ever seen on pre-or-circa-1900 Lipps.

An 1880 Lipp upright with the same logo as yours.
http://img1.classistatic.com/cps/kj/090 ... 79_20.jpeg

Here's a similar fallboard transfer on a c.1870 grand.
http://real.uwaterloo.ca/~sbirkett/lipp%201870.jpg

From the early 1900s on, Lipps had a much simpler, Deco-style capital font on their fallboards. This upright is from 1906.
http://uk.jreidpianos.com/welcome/lipp_upright_3.jpg

Also, look at the pedals on the 1870 grand - an unusual, fancy design very like on your upright. Later Lipps like the c.1900 one below always had plain ones.
http://www.collaroypianoco.com.au/image ... id=16&db=3

This one is a 140cm upright which, although probably several years younger than yours, might give you some idea what it might have looked like before modernisation.

Hope that helps! Lastly, and with all due respect to Vernon, your Lipp might have some significant value if you ever thought to sell. They are recognised as amongst the best uprights ever made, and as I said above yours is potentially a stunner due to its size and rarity. Against that is the modernisation which will dent its value a fair bit. However you should know that 'standard' 48-52" restored Lipp uprights with original casework can sell for a significant sum. I've seen them advertised for between £3000 and £7500 here in the UK.

[DanOz1973]

I also have a Richard Lipp Piano , but its a player Grand and its dated at 1914 (6'4).The unsual thing about this model is , it has a dual trackerbar so can play the normal 88 note rolls (solophonola) but also the Hupfeld 73 note rolls as well.
Daniel

[Bill Kibby]

The original posting must have sneaked by when I was on holiday, so I thought I'd just say that although the interior, pedals and number are consistent with it being 1882, the case certainly has been modernised- horribly! Thanks for the opportunity to date one of Keller's early action numbers 9616 as being 1882.

[Alastair]

Hi,
I'm in Auckland New Zealand. I've just bought a Richard Lipp piano identical with the one discussed here, but slightly older (1876 or 1877) and never modernized. My intention is to restore it. Here are a few of the items I'm thinking through.
The case has a brittle ebony covering (about 2mm think) engraved with the same ornate scroll-work, but this layer is damaged and in several places flaking off. I think I will have to remove this, strip back to the bare wood and stain etc. Maybe I could just do this on the worst pannels and keep what I can of the original?

The hammers (original I am sure) are surprisingly small, but little worn. Should I just clean these up or replace them with larger modern hammers? I will re-string of course.

I gather it's always best to replace the dampers on these old Lipp's.

Any suggestions welcome.

Alastair

[Bill Kibby]

It's not something we can really answer from here. Ask your tuner to advise on the spot. If the original hammers are alright, why change them? Altering the weight of hammers will interfere with the efficiency of the action, and the feel of the keyboard, and this may need further remedial work.

[Alastair]

Thanks, Bill.
That is helpful. Nice of you to reply so late at night.
Alastair

[MarkGoodwinPianos]

Thanks, Bill.
That is helpful. Nice of you to reply so late at night.
Alastair

His best replies come after midnight

[Alastair]

Hi Bill and whoever else is on line,
I'm pretty well advanced now with my restoration of the 1877 Lipp (tall upright). New strings and dampers etc hammers just reshaped (following your excellent advice, Bill), heaps of regulating and hours on the case (which is very much original). It is starting to sound marvelous. A very distinctive tone and exciting to play.
Anyway, can you help me on another matter, please? I've just bought a Bechstein model 9 upright to restore. There is a number stamped into the wood on the top of the left side just under the lid. It begins with the number 1 imprinted in a criss-cross manner. Does this have any significance? Does this signify the following number is the serial number? If so, the piano dates 1928. This piano came out of Germany after WW2 (brought back by an English soldier in the occupying force). Now it's ended up in New Zealand.
Thanks, and kind regards,
Alastair

[Bill Kibby]

Yes, in the same way that Americans use a hash sign # before a significant number, some old pianos have numbers imprinted in the woodwork that are preceded by two of the figure one, superimposed at right-aangles to form a sort of cross. I can't remember if Bechsteins particularly use it though.

[Alastair]

Thanks, Bill.
That is very helpful. Much appreciated.
Alastair