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As a child I started learning piano but didn't get very far; not reaching grade 1. I was taught from the John Thompson and Lina Ng piano books. 10 years on I would like to start picking up piano again.

I found a piano teacher and have had a couple of lessons. I was expecting to be taught in the same structured way as before, working through the theory and technique but my teacher gave me a book of Grade 1&2 music and just listened to me play.

I felt that this was not the right way for me to learn so I booked a lesson with another teacher for comparison. This lesson was much the same as before and I was told that teachers don't teach in the traditional way any more.

This seems odd to me, is it correct?

The teachers are possibly trying to assess your ability and skills that you already possess. It's very hard taking on a pupil that has been taught by another teacher. Obviously, if that is all they are going to do in your lesson, you do have reason to be concerned! It may be useful to have a chat with the teachers you have tried and ask them about their specialism and what you are hoping to achieve out of the lessons. Private piano teachers have been abused to an extent by parents of pupils who literally instruct the teachers to go through the grades. Obviously, that is not the answer in the long run but this has been the norm.

Perhaps in this light, you should at least talk to the last teacher you went to and see if they can accomodate before trying to track down another one. I do know of teachers that will sit down and talk to you before your first lesson, and this allows for discussions of this nature to take place.

I use beginners books (be it with or without pictures of monsters depending on the age of the pupil) and try to get the pupil off them as soon as possible. It may take two terms, it may take 3 years depending on the pupil.

If someone has had lessons before, I always hear some playing first, to gauge where to start from. There seems to be an epidemic of terrible teaching around and most of the pupils that come from someone else have had to be completely re taught

A great deal of teachers dont teach anything about hand position, touch, even the rudiments of music, the importance of rhythm etc. Sad really. Don't get me wrong, there are some good teachers in Dundee, but honestly, not many.

It's that teaching to piano grade music only that gets me going... Geelan opened those flood gates last week... Deep breath!

you tend to find crap teachers do that because its easy, these teachers know nothing of the repertoire, so they rely on the grade books. passing exams and learning to play music are not the same thing.

I imagine most people have no idea how to distinguish a good teacher from a bad teacher - until it's too late.
Perhaps the aspiring student or his/her parent should first ensure they have a comprehensive overview of all that is involved in learning to play the piano - everything from the anatomical principles of position and movement to the structure of music. So much is also dependant on the student - not to mention interfering parents. The exam-centered approach can easily blunt, even kill, the creative motive which prompted the learning of the piano in the first place.

Yes you are right about interfering parents!!!!!!!

Exams are very useful benchmarks when used correctly. They can give the pupils great goals to work for, a focus for learning and can be a jump off point repertoire wise.

Playing the same piece over and over for weeks on end however is useless!!!

I had had lessons forty-five years ago and I decided to start playing again last year. I worked on my own for a few months doing a lot of very slow sight-reading, some scales, etc. until I felt I could not progress on my own. I then went to a teacher. The first two or three lessons she did the same as yours, she asked me to play grade 1 and 2 pieces and said very little. She also refused to teach me for more than half an hour at a time. After a few lessons, she started picking up some of my mistakes and started setting me pieces to work on. I started getting over my nerves and trying to meet her standards. Four months later we have 45 minutes lessons, are tackling serious theory and I am so enthusiastic about playing I am buying a new piano as some of you will know.
Looking back I am full of admiration for my teacher. I am a fairly ancient adult restarter and I was so nervous I could not string two bars together if somebody was listening to me. She has been patient and encouraging without ever compromising her standards. Like you I had doubts at first but I am very glad I persevered long enough to find out whether she could help me. I would say, give your teacher a chance.

That's why this forum is so good; you get ALL the perspectives!

While on the topic of teachers and teaching - which are the essential principles for mastering legato. I think I'm getting there - but it comes and goes - more going than coming, though!

for my two pence it comes down to tone. Legato of course means that the notes are bound together: Lets say you need to play CDEFG with fingers 1 to 5 in the RH

Play C mezzo piano, and hold for 2 beats (at about 70 per beat). Then, play the D but don't release the C until the very moment the D sounds. Of course the D will be mezzo piano too etc etc etc.

Try to make every note the same dynamic level, its an exercise in ear training. After a while you will be able to play about with crescendi and diminuendi, different tempi etc. Simply apply this kind of practice to your pieces. At first it will be difficult but after 10 minutes you'll be used to it

I had a chat with my piano teacher today and she thinks those pinao teaching books (e.g John Thompson books, A dozen a day series) are too mechanical and boring for a learner nowadays. Therefore she wouldn't recommend to use and she thinks I would learn scales/theory as I go along with music books. She said she used those books 40 years ago and they nearly put her off piano.

Perhaps I was taught in an old fashioned way in the past and I still think this is normal. (I learned originally in Hong Kong)

Does anyone on this forum still teach that way?

well you can dress it up however you like, but at the end of the day you need to know about music notation (theory etc), learn rhythmics, and of course, technique. The John Thompson books are as good as any for children.

Its not so much the book that matters as the relationship between the pupil and the teacher. If that is right, then real magic can happen. If it isn't working, then it can't. I've had some pupils change from me to a different teacher because it hasn't worked out, and I've had some come to me from a different teacher and it has. I've even recommended a private pupil of mine go to a different teacher as I think they would benefit more from the teacher I recommended than myself.

joseph wrote:well you can dress it up however you like, but at the end of the day you need to know about music notation (theory etc), learn rhythmics, and of course, technique. The John Thompson books are as good as any for children.

Its not so much the book that matters as the relationship between the pupil and the teacher. If that is right, then real magic can happen. If it isn't working, then it can't. I've had some pupils change from me to a different teacher because it hasn't worked out, and I've had some come to me from a different teacher and it has. I've even recommended a private pupil of mine go to a different teacher as I think they would benefit more from the teacher I recommended than myself.

You know anyone good in Essex?

not really because i'm hardly ever down that way. There is a long list of teachers on this site though!

Try to go for someone who has already graduated rather than a music student, or a postgraduate level student. Undergrads tend to be disorganized and often not able to communicate very well through lack of experience. That said, there are exceptions to every rule.

You should really get somebody with an honours degree who was a piano first study (the amount of singers etc that teach piano is amazing and absurd!) and preferably someone who performs as well - they are more likely to know how to teach technique.

Even someone who has completed a LTCL in instrument teaching (or equivalent) would be fine, as opposed to someone with a performance certificate alone. The assessment and training that is provided by these are comparable with the ethos and practice used by classroom teachers in terms of planning, subject knowledge training as well as developing awareness of repertoire and essential skills for teaching.

well, true, but it is very important that teachers know how to play their instruments, and I see time and again that lots of teachers don't really know how to play - even with LTCL or LRSM teachers certificates.

Its true that a number of amazing performers don't know how to teach, but this is usually because they can't be bothered, see it as a chore and have little in the way of interpersonal skill.

I have a performance related BA, Postgrad Diploma and Masters Degree and I have a number of pupils who do very well in their exams, can play other music, are well grounded in theory etc. I mean, I have a number of right thickets too of course. . .

One point though, I go for lessons with a guy in Perth, who is an amazing performer and teacher and yet he doesn't have a music degree. He is retired now but studied French and German, and he was a modern languages teacher. He was always a keen pianist and studied privately in his adult life with Aube Tzerko (who taught Leon Fleischer and Misha Dichter) and Karl Ulrich Schnabel (son of Artur). He produces the most beautiful sound at the piano and has a stunning technique - musically and digitally speaking. He's kind of the exception that proves the rule. Mind you, what do you need a music college for if you study with Schnabel! Oh, and he was also mates with Jorge Bolet!

joseph wrote: Its true that a number of amazing performers don't know how to teach, but this is usually because they can't be bothered, see it as a chore and have little in the way of interpersonal skill.

I would probably extend you point a little further and say that most performers don't teach because they can't. Teaching is a natural skill which you either have or don't; you're either born with the nac or not. You only need to look at the teaching crisis in the public sector in England and Wales to see what happens to teachers who are trained but don't have the vocational calling so-to-speak. The ability to explain and structure lessons precisely in order to gain a target at the end is not gained from your experience as a performer alone although it can inform your teaching. I think that high level performers are of particular value to students working within grades 5-8 but performer experts often can't cope with the early phases, particularly with younger children, unless they have that mentoring nac. Performance experience with someone who does not have 'the nac' is about as much use as an ash tray on a motorbike when it comes to teaching piano.

I suppose on reflection, I'm taking the flipside view to your teacher in Perth.

I found my teacher by browsing through musicteachers.co.uk. She has a BA in Music and Drama and a PGCE in music and drama.

I feel that if you can teach at any level, you should be able to teach child beginners. Perhaps you agree. The reason I say this is because that is where you have to be a real communicator. You have to explain everything in terms that they will understand, they probably wont be able to read words all that well so the work is really cut out.

There aren't many teachers who can teach young children well. The balance between encouragement and correction is always difficult. I lavish my young kids with praise, they love it and it motivates them to go on. Its not always a bed of roses, but I love teaching the tiny tots and I find it rewarding as they learn each new note.

joseph wrote:The balance between encouragement and correction is always difficult. I lavish my young kids with praise, they love it and it motivates them to go on.

Even from the perspective of a class teacher currently teaching Year 2/Primary 3, this is the key to success. Balancing that with discipline is a delicate balance.

joseph wrote:I feel that if you can teach at any level, you should be able to teach child beginners. Perhaps you agree. The reason I say this is because that is where you have to be a real communicator. You have to explain everything in terms that they will understand, they probably wont be able to read words all that well so the work is really cut out.

There aren't many teachers who can teach young children well. The balance between encouragement and correction is always difficult. I lavish my young kids with praise, they love it and it motivates them to go on. Its not always a bed of roses, but I love teaching the tiny tots and I find it rewarding as they learn each new note.

I agree completely with everything joseph has written above. I always prefer teaching those I've had from the beginning; then if there are any dreadful defects or misconceptions I only have myself to blame. Mostly I teach those who have come from somebody else, with all the problems that entails. I recently inherited someone who was convinced that the treble clef spaces were FACE, starting form the top!! So the bottom space was E. My initial (inward) reaction was "Stupid child". Seconds later I corrected myself: it was the previous teacher who had failed to explain it properly. Sadly people waste pounds on sending children to this sort of teacher.