H. Kohl

lfp · Post by **lfp** » 27 Sep 2008, 01:03

If somebody knows about the brand H. Kohl or this upright piano 53" tall, series #5183. age, etc. thanx
http://www.flickr.com/photos/luisfernan ... 891336318/

Post by **Bill Kibby** » 27 Sep 2008, 09:11

I have received enquiries about Kohl before, and was unable to find any information.

lfp · Post by **lfp** » 27 Sep 2008, 20:45

thanx, maybe someone may know about the date of manufacture.

Post by **Bill Kibby** » 27 Sep 2008, 22:05

No dates are published for Kohl's numbers, have a look at the Datemarks page at www.pianogen.org

If you know how to remove the action safely, it may be marked with the action makers' name and number, and I may be able to date this.

lfp · Post by **lfp** » 28 Sep 2008, 04:44

that piece is where the hammers are?
if so, i sent this part for rectification.

Post by **Bill Kibby** » 28 Sep 2008, 19:33

Good, perhaps your technician can have a look for any marks.

lfp · Post by **lfp** » 29 Sep 2008, 02:41

ok, thanks, when they arrive with it, i will look
for any marks and back to you.

lfp · Post by **lfp** » 30 Sep 2008, 00:16

in the meantime i found this marks in the first key and the company seal.
regards.
lfp
http://www.flickr.com/photos/luisfernan ... 900437740/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/luisfernan ... 899595839/

Post by **Bill Kibby** » 30 Sep 2008, 14:27

The label is interesting, but the only useful information I can see is that Kohl was established ("gegrundet") in 1855. If you could get a magnifying glass on the exhibition medals and give more information this might help to narrow down the date. Have a look at the Medals page at www.PianoGen.org

The name on the key (ending ttele?) would be the Stuttgart key maker, his number won't help, but again, it would be interesting if you could manage to read the whole name. I suppose the piano may be from around 1910, but that's a guess.

lfp · Post by **lfp** » 30 Sep 2008, 15:53

ok, i will take a closer picture, but in the meantime i found this pic in flickr, is the same logo as the one in my piano.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/buratto/392004308/
i found fascinating this kind of investigations

lfp · Post by **lfp** » 30 Sep 2008, 19:25

here a couple of macro pics of the medals
http://www.flickr.com/photos/luisfernan ... 901817793/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/luisfernan ... 902644632/

lfp · Post by **lfp** » 30 Sep 2008, 19:59

perhaps the key say CHANTTELE or CHAETTELE

lfp · Post by **lfp** » 01 Oct 2008, 21:33

http://www.flickr.com/photos/luisfernan ... 905747206/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/luisfernan ... 904901845/

these engraves were found in the action

joseph · Post by **joseph** » 01 Oct 2008, 22:08

it is certainly a large upright! Does it have the sound to match its size?

Post by **Bill Kibby** » 01 Oct 2008, 23:41

As you can probably see, De Rohden was a Parisian maker of piano actions. It is interesting to know that Kohl used Paris actions, but it doesn't give us a date.

husky · Post by **husky** » 18 Mar 2009, 01:12

Hi lfp
I`m a german from Hamburg and also the owner of a H.Kohl upright.
Unfortunately I can`t tell you the exact date because I just started to make inquiries about this brand.What I know so far is : the company was founded in 1855 and business stopped in 1909, my piano has a s/n 6000 something? (so little younger than yours) the best guess of a local expert was around 1890 to 1905, forget about the medals (ok can't be made before the date) but this was more for building up trust in a brand,some piano maker were usings those medals for almost 100 years

. there are still plenty H.Kohl around here in Germany. I know two owners and one is right now for sale at our local piano dealer see: http://piano-dilger.de/Herzl_Willk_/Geb ... gebr_.html (sorry its german says all new very good condition price is in euros) an old pianomaster from Steinway&Sons told me he fixed some and the quality of H.Kohl was very good.I don't know about yours but after now more than 100 years my piano needs a complete overhaul or I've to scrap it

(. Hope these few infomation could help you a little.
Best regard from germany
Mario

lfp · Post by **lfp** » 21 Mar 2009, 19:58

Mario: thank you very much for your kind post. I already got my piano restored (not professional but enough for the price i paid), i will post photos next week. I also began to take lessons but somethig i noted is that the piano lost its afination quickly, i will consult to another technician to verify wich is the cause, in the meantime i practice almost daily. Best regards,
Luis Fernando

lfp · Post by **lfp** » 23 Mar 2009, 21:54

Here is the link of some new photos of my H. Kohl piano after a modest restoration.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/luisfernan ... otostream/

Post by **Bill Kibby** » 26 Mar 2009, 11:44

I don't know what "afination" means but the piano looks smart.

husky · Post by **husky** » 27 Mar 2009, 00:07

Bill Kibby :`afination` as far as I know people from spain or spanish as mother tongue use this word for ' tune ' .

Luis Fernando:It looks very nice , I love those old pianos !!! But I'm afraid that you have to spend even more money if I got you right it was tuned but after a short time it was out of tune again. This is a common problem and means most likely death sentence to very old pianos because the pinblock is broken.The pinblock is in the upper part where the pins to tune the piano are fitted in.
If you have cracks in the holes of the pinblock the pins become loose and the string will loose its tension .To fix a pinblock in a proper way you have to disassemble the whole piano including strings,pins,frame,soundboard.... and once stripped down that much it would make sense to replace the strings, fix the soundboard(has most likely also cracks) a hell lot of work even for an expert.Here we can easily spend 7000-8000$ for that.I have the same problem with my piano plus almost every bushing in the action is worn out.

There is a tempoary solution for the pinblock : don't tell it to a professional technican he might call me insane

maybe a skilled handyman will do it for you : Tune the piano, use a hammer and hit the affected pins deeper in the pinblock, hopefully they'll have now more friction and maintain the tune for a longer time(worked for almost 8 years in my piano).
Be aware that there is a risk to make it worse if the cracks 'll grow.
Best regards

Mario

Post by **Bill Kibby** » 27 Mar 2009, 00:16

There's no secret about resetting pins with a hammer, but it won't work on a large scale. What you have to understand is that without being there and torque-testing every pin, nobody has the right to make assumptions about how good or bad it may be, or how widespread the problem is. If there are only a few loose pins making it sound bad, any capable tuner would have reset them deeper. The tuner is on the spot, and is the only one qualified to tell you what the state of the piano is. Excessive hammering will encourage strain on the surrounding wood, and may cause splitting, and resetting is a very gentle, controlled job.

lfp · Post by **lfp** » 27 Mar 2009, 03:02

Thank you Mario and Bill for your kind advice, yes afination (a word that does not exist) means tune (in Spanish you would say afinación). Since i bought the piano i just tuned it once but is suspicious that it became out of tune in a short period of time, i will try again with another technician and then i will see what happens. I spent in this piano $750 buying it and $550 restoring it, a tuner maybe charge me another $100 so i don't expect to waste to much on repairs. In the worst scenario it looks pretty cool at my office

where i also have my drum kit. I will tell you when i got the technician. Regards. lfp
http://www.flickr.com/photos/luisfernan ... 388246875/

Pianomate · Post by **Pianomate** » 27 Mar 2009, 18:58

You need to allow a few tuning sessions to enable it to settle down if it has been out of tune for a while. Also, is it in a steady environment?

husky · Post by **husky** » 27 Mar 2009, 21:57

Sorry gentlemen,
it was not my intention to discourage somebody and for sure only a local expert can give a good statement about the condition.
As I'm not a piano technician I consulted an expert for my old H.Kohl and he told me exactly what I posted here in the forum.
I feel a really sorry if this is not 100% true.

The statement that no pinblock will last a 100 years or even more, considering the huge tension and how close the pins are located to each other sounds quite logical to me .

Am I wrong in this ? I really like to know if there are still old pianos around, in good shape with no major repair in between.

husky · Post by **husky** » 27 Mar 2009, 22:07

Luis Fernando: Nice drum set lucky you if you can play this in your office

the condition of your action looks much better then those in my piano as far as I can judge this from the picture

lfp · Post by **lfp** » 28 Mar 2009, 01:56

Thank you Pianomate, i think and i hope the same, yes it is in a very steady environment. Mario, down here there are no much pianos like this, you may find kawais, yamahas, baldwins but not professionals, more like studio ones, also Guatemala have a humid environment with no air conditioned houses or buildings. I only play my drums at night for my own and my neighbours sanity.

Pianomate · Post by **Pianomate** » 28 Mar 2009, 10:35

Problems with splittin and warping are usually connected with cycling of environments - i.e. extremes or sudden changes of humidity to dryness and back again, centrally heated houses, proximity to radiators, stoves, heaters and windows, damp stone floors etc. There are many much older pianos in the UK with no problems, especially those of better quality manufacture such as yours. It does of course depend on how it has been kept by its previous owners. The old late 19th and early 20th Century onwards German uprights such as yours were generally of a high build quality and have a good reputation for durability.

lfp · Post by **lfp** » 28 Mar 2009, 16:26

As far as i know mine was hosting a mouse inside

, and have many mots little holes

in large and big economies like your country i think is easier find well kept old pianos than in small and low income countries like mine. lucky you! i will try to fix the sound next month in the meantime i will practice my hanon lessons. regards, lfp

Pianomate · Post by **Pianomate** » 29 Mar 2009, 01:20

It is quite common to find evidence of mice in pianos here too. You find all sorts of things in them. One piano I helped move had the pianist's stash of whisky behind the bottom panel. A tech I know once found a small amount of cannabis which had been hidden under the keys by a previous owner.

Do you mean furniture beetle in the timber or moths in the hammers and dampers when you mention holes?

lfp · Post by **lfp** » 29 Mar 2009, 02:20

Moths, sorry for my english, hundreds of holes, the technician cured them but i still see a little excrement of them,

but not in the hammers nor dampers, just in the cabinet.

Pianomate · Post by **Pianomate** » 29 Mar 2009, 08:32

Sounds like furnture beetle (woodworm). Over here a piano would be scrapped if badly infested.

Post by **Bill Kibby** » 29 Mar 2009, 13:12

There seems to be some confusion here. Moths don't eat wood, and you won't see their excrement, but they will attack felt and baize. Holes in the wood usually indicate the timber beetle (anobius punctatum) and when she flies or crawls into the piano to lay her eggs, she usually takes a right turn and heads for the soft wood of the keys in the treble end of the keyboard. The larvae then munch away for three to five years, sometimes removing as much as 60% of the wood. The dust is easy to see, but remember that after you find holes, they may still be feeding for a couple of years more. It's useful to mark the holes so that you can tell if more appear.

Pianomate · Post by **Pianomate** » 29 Mar 2009, 21:43

If I ever discover holes, even old ones, I blitz the furniture with woodworm killer (The industrial sort not available to the general public, not the DIY version).

Furniture beetle likes damp environments and hates central heating. A recognised way to get rid of them for fine, valuable antiques is to send them to a frozen storage for a month to kill the larvae, but I hate to think what this would do to a piano.

lfp · Post by **lfp** » 30 Mar 2009, 17:58

That's the name WOODWORM! the past technician injected some poison in the holes with a syringe and i review daily the furniture looking for the sawdust like excrement to appear

. This piano have some wood replacements at the bottom, where the rods are attached, i think (and hope) there are very few woodworms still alive. Thank you again for the advice.

Pianomate · Post by **Pianomate** » 30 Mar 2009, 18:34

Woodworm - the very mention if it strikes fear into householders and antiques enthusiasts alike.

Wipe over the areas with the holes with a wood stain or dye or even a cloth soaked in diluted gravy browning to darken the holes. New holes will then be obvious and you can check for activity.

As a rule, the holes on the outside indicate about 10% of what is going on in the inside. Badly affected timbers lose their structural integrity.

If you don't mind the smell Place a paradichlorobenzene (PDCB) block on a saucer in the base of the piano (these are the blocks used in gents' urinals - you can buy them in hardware stores over here) and are poisonous to and often used to deter instects. They will prevent any re-infestations. Alternatively napthalene mothballs are also effective. Both forms discourage moths in wardrobes etc.

If you have one, an insect zapper will help remove any beetles flying about,

Unfortunately the holes (known as "flight holes") are where the beetle has emerged and left the timber so injecting fluid down them has limited use, however these must always be done in case further beetles remain inside. The places to concentrate on are the corners and joints where the beetle lays its eggs.

A note to DIY enthusiasts - beware when working on old timbers containing woodworm holes. They may have been treated many years ago with hazardous substances such as arsenic and organophosphates. Observe hygiene precautions and avoid breathing dust. I know an old joiner who used to reckon the best thing to kill them with is by brushing the timber in neat sheep dip!

For outdoors, the best thing to kill them with is Creosote - the proper stuff, not the creosote substitute.

lfp · Post by **lfp** » 31 Mar 2009, 00:03

Thank you very much Pianomate.

lfp · Post by **lfp** » 19 Sep 2009, 23:14

ok, finally I got the piano tuned and with other minor repairs (hammers, chords and sustain pedal).
it sounds better, although the keys require a little bit more force than before, but it seams that time bit at bit will settle everything down right.

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