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Abslootly. I'll go and fetch me knitting and a cuppa...

Excellent Idea Dave!

Now we can resume our conversation about The Young Ones and hand cream...

Oooooh Dave this is a fab idea I love a bit of chit-chat in case you hadn't already guessed!

I've just done my daily piano practice I can now play a chromatic scale (so much fun!) and C maj, G maj, D maj, A maj, E maj, B maj and F# maj! Hurrah! I have a very challenging piece I'm learning at the moment though and I'm getting a bit frustrated! I'm trying to stay positive and break it down into tiny bits!

I'm off to open my tub of Ben and Jerry's now....yummy

Hi Sparkley,

Chromatic sales are fun aren't they? If you choose to do the grade 1 exams then choose ' Never Vex a Tyrannosaurs Rex' Its got loads of chromatic stuff going on in it.

Mmmmmm what flavour Ben & Jerrys have you got? My favourite is Cookie Dough.

Haven't done pratice yet ( naughty naughty! ) I'm off to do some, then some more at 11 or 12.

White black white black white black....! Every note, basically. One octave up & down I think, for Grade 1. If you look at the very beginning of your exam book it'll tell you the scale requirements. It's one of the easiest scales to learn as long as you remember where you're going to/from! Have you got a grade 1 scale book, Dave? It sets them all out in detail for you.

handy fingering for chromatic scale (starting on C but works from any note) It means of course that D is the symmetrical note (as it is normally in chromatics) but this fingering works so much better when you have to play fast chromatic scales.


Right Hand
C C# D D# E F F# G G# A A# B C
2 3 1 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 4 1 2


Left Hand

C C# D D# E F F# G G# A A# B C
1 3 1 3 2 1 4 3 2 1 3 2 1


you need to loose 5 stone dave? Good luck, and it sounds like you're on track with loosing 1 and a half already! Well Done you!

ok, so i can play the piano but i can't line up the numbers to the letters - sorry!

That's an interesting fingering, Joseph, when I was taught many years ago (and I haven't had lessons for a while), it was to use 1 on the white notes, 3 on the black notes and 2 for C and F (for the right hand).

I'll have a go at your suggestion later when I can get off this computer.

No, the fingering's adrift...I think there's a 1 missing near the beginning (before the first 2) which will throw the rest out of whack. Do as Grenache says, and you'll be all right. Or do as Joseph says but stuff a 1 before the first 2...

Hi Dave,

Theres a good book you can get called ' The complete book of scales, chords, arpeggios & cadences' Its got all kinds off scales in there and all the fingerings for them. Its really useful, I think I got it for about 5 or 6 quid in Chappell.

RH (same fingering makes more sense if i start it on D though, so you can see why C has a 2) HONEST IT WORKS!

D-1 D#-3(or 2) E-1 F-2 F#-3 G-1 G#-2 A-3 A#-4 B-1 C-2 C#-3 D-1 etc


LH

D-1 D#- 3 E-2 F-1 F#-4 G-3 G#-2 A-1 A#-3 B-2 C-1 C#-3(or 2) D-1

This is what I meant. Also it facilitates contrary motion scales in a way that the AB fingering doesn't, and its faster.

Grenache wrote:That's an interesting fingering, Joseph, when I was taught many years ago (and I haven't had lessons for a while), it was to use 1 on the white notes, 3 on the black notes and 2 for C and F (for the right hand).

That's what I was taught. It works fine

Moonlight, i have the complete scale book. It's really good and much cheaper than buying all the individual scale books for each grade.

well, just have a go at the fingering a couple of times, see what you think

yes buy a complete scale book, its so much better than buying lots of individual ones!

Hi guys,

Joseph, I tried out your tip, it does feel a lot more comfortable especially when doing them in contrary motion. Need to pick up more speed though as I'm still more familiar with doing it the conventional way.

Do you have any more tips for chromatic scales or any other scales? How about tips for doing chromatic scales in 3rds or 10ths?
I ask you because if anyone knows the fastest way to navigate the keyboard it would be concert pianist

thirds you have to use a slide fingering, slide off the black keys on to the white ones. I think that the ABRSM are now publishing this type of fingering in their scale book, if not, Chopin certainly does in his 3rds study!

Tenths i'm not sure about, I hardly (honestly) ever play pieces with 10ths in thirds, but I'll go to my trusty steed and have a look!

PS- a tip about speed. Speed depends on how fast you can get your finger on to each key, so the first thing you have to practise very slowly is getting your finger on to the key (never mind pressing it down) in the most efficient way - with the least movement. The physical act of playing the piano can seem mind boggling in itself even to the greatest of players but it all ends up being quite logical and feeling very free in the end (i wish I understood all the logic and felt completely free. . . .)

Dave, did you try it the conventional way? ie:

RH C 1 C#3 D 1 D#3 E 1 F 2 F#3 G 1 G#3 A 1 A#3 B 1 C 2

LH C 1 C#3 D 1 D#3 E 2 F 1 F#3 G 1 G#3 A 1 A#3 B 2 C 1


Like anything it needs pratice! Try doing it slowly at first later picking up speed when it becomes more familar. It took me a while about 2 weeks to get fast(ish) and of course I'm still clumsy ( then again I haven't been doing it long)

I'm getting faster with my chromatics now, I love them!! You having any more luck with them Dave?

Yes Dave, once you get used to doing them the T-Rex tune becomes a lot easier to do.

I find them realy fun too, 3 weeks ago I was doing a chromatic scale decending and as I did it I said WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE E E E E E E!
Does any one else do that when playing them or is it JUST me?

I can't see how its weird... that flute playing boy on young musican of the year shouted YOW! down his flute! Maybe it adds to the performace.

Moonlight,

My boyfriend's a flutist and he plays that piece with the YOW!! Did it for his end of year exam this summer! I'm all excited to hear it's been on tele I've seen the composer play it too - rather funny!!

Chromatic scales are indeed the most fun! Until you have to play them in 3rds, or contrary motion. Yucky Yuck Yuck! Although, my boyfriend has just told me there's a Rachmaninov piece in which you have to play chromatic scales in 6ths with one hand, so I think I'll just count myself lucky with the old 3rds with 2 hands!

moonlight i've just re-read your post re chromatic scales in thirds and tenths - you meant with two hands didn't you! In that case you just use the same fingering as you normally use except a third apart.

Incidentally in the traditional chromatic scale fingering the pattern changes after the first octave - you play the first C with the thumb in the RH but by the time you get to the second octave, its played with the 2nd finger.

Hi Joseph,

Yes I did mean with both hands, I'm hardly not that much of an accomplished pianist to be able to do 3rds or whatever with one hand!
( bliming ek! ) Thanks for the tips!

Hi PianoAngel,

Yeah that flute piece is called 'Zoom Tube' ( I think ) Its an amusing thing to hear! ( I do like it though ) I don't know the name of the composer, but he was on young musican too, he watched the boy play it.

I find doing Chromatics in contrary motion ok to do, but I am having difficulty trying to will my fingers to work together to do them in 3rds. Its a shame because they sound really cool in 3rds. I woudn't be surpised about the Rachmaninov piece... after all it is Rachmaninov.

I suppose you will be happy to hear I can now play that Kummer tune and the other exam pieces now , I do wish I had a teacher to play them to!

Hi Dave !

Yes please do tell me what you will do when you have managed to get your head round chromatic scales. Do you think you can top my weirdness Dave?

Thats realy nice about playing in front of your wife, have you done it before? or were you too shy?

The T-Rex tune isn't that much of a depressing tune, Its more like a comical scary sounding tune. Play her that Kummer one, NOW that IS depressing sounding. Its a bit like sad background music to some BBC drama or something.

Yeah I would love to see that clip of that camp boy playing Zoom Tube I really liked him, I wanted him to win! or the pianist boy ( I'm so biased )
Maybe I will see if there is a clip of it online somewhere.

Moonlight wrote:Yes Dave, once you get used to doing them the T-Rex tune becomes a lot easier to do.

I find them realy fun too, 3 weeks ago I was doing a chromatic scale decending and as I did it I said WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE E E E E E E!
Does any one else do that when playing them or is it JUST me?

I can't see how its weird... that flute playing boy on young musican of the year shouted YOW! down his flute! Maybe it adds to the performace.

Anna you are so funny! That made me smile so much!! I find chromatics great fun, but have never said WEEEEEEE on the way down! Whenever I play a chromatic now I will think of you though!!!

Oh my gosh I never saw the 'YOW' thing!! That's so bizarre!! I'm gonna look on YouTube for a clip of it!!! I've played pieces on my sax or clarinet in bands where you all have to shout in the middle of the piece and that's great fun!

Dave, well done for playing in front of your wife!! I'm not too bad playing in front of my family, as they've heard me practising music for years and listened to endless amounts of clarinet squeaks! But when I'm at my boyfriend's house I get very nervous playing in front of him. I'll be happily playing a piece, then hear him come into the room to ask me if I want a cuppa or something. He won't disturb me mid-way through the piece so just waits there until I'm finished but I instantly get nervous and make loads of mistakes, and have to stop!!

Ooooh Stroganoff would have been lovely last night! I had a casserole which was rather yummy, with homemade bread to mop up the juice! I don't work evenings, just during the day. I'm a scientist so spend lots of my time in the lab playing with test tubes!

Hi people!

Thats fine Sparkley if you remember my oddness when doing chromatics just try not to think of me saying WEEE! when you need to do them for grade 2 or you might burst out laughing in the middle of the test!

Wow Sparkley your a scientist, what area are you woking in chemistry?

Dave,

That Kummer tune does sound a bit weird at first, its got a lot of dissonace in it; I found that off puting a bit but it really adds to the sadness of the piece.

Thanks for the dinner Dave, its a shame theres not a Star Trek style teleporting device people could connect to their computer! Then I could try your cooking!

I'm not into Stricly Come Dancing, but I'm watching Maestro, I want Sue Perkins to win. Do you watch that Dave? I never bothered to watch Classical Idol, if it comes on again I will watch it this time.

dave brum wrote:Hey, I can do 'T-Rex' with the nome on 65 now!

Hrrrmph. No-one likes a swot.

OK, OK, OK, I'm jealous.

Jan
xx

dave brum wrote:...but I betcha I can't play half the stuff a certain 'Moony' can play!

Are you refuring to me Dave? I'm not that good I'm sure! If you want to know a secret my sight reading is Sh## I mostly memorise a piece after a long few painful hours of tying to decipher what it all means! Then I only glance at the notes to jog my memory so I know were I am. I can't read a piece and play it at sight, straight off!

I'm really dreading the sight reading part of the AB tests! ( I printed out the syllabus the other day, I'm well scared! )

That Maestro program is on, on Tuesdays BBC2. I think for the last one they need to conduct Beethovens 5th symphony 1st movement or a bit of it anyway.

I saw 'The Choir, Boys don't sing' ( it was that that reminded me to learn the piano! ) It was really good! I hope I get a really enthusiastic piano teacher with as much enthusiam as that Gareth Malone guy! I wish my music teacher was like him then maby I would of paid more attention
to music lessons at school .

It would be geat if we could hear eachother play!

Moonlight wrote:
Are you refuring to me Dave? I'm not that good I'm sure! If you want to know a secret my sight reading is Sh## I mostly memorise a piece after a long few painful hours of tying to decipher what it all means! Then I only glance at the notes to jog my memory so I know were I am. I can't read a piece and play it at sight, straight off!

Oh my gosh that's exactly what I do!! I start playing and realise I'm barely even look at the music, and then when I get stuck I look up and don't even know what bar I'm on!!

I did Biochemistry at Uni and am now employed as a 'research Biochemist' in Salisbury Its good fun and I love it!

I've not watched that Maestro programme. I saw the ads and just thought 'oh no, not another celebrities trying to learn something' programme. It's probably really interesting though as I imagine you get to find out a lot of stuff. I must admit to watching The X Factor recently though - I just love the auditions rounds!!

sparkley wrote:Oh my gosh that's exactly what I do!! I start playing and realise I'm barely even look at the music, and then when I get stuck I look up and don't even know what bar I'm on!!

HA HA HA Thats what I do too! I sometimes look at the bars but don't concentrate and loose what bar I'm on.

I love watching the X Factor auditions! I don't bother watching the rest off the show just that bit. Did you see that really rude goth style girl on it last week?! Oh my God! at least she showed the judges!

Dave, Yeah I watched 'Make Me Musical' ( I think thats what it was called ) With the MP lady learning the piano, and Joe Brand playing the organ . I can't remember much of the tips Diane Abbott recived from her teachers! I wish I could watch it again. Lang Lang gave her a lesson too! I remember.
Shes so lucky!

Thats nice of you to email her Dave! I'm not sure if she keeps it up I saw her on the TV recently and she had really long nails ( maybe they were stick on ones? )

I haven't seen that Gareth's My Space page, maybe I'll check it out.

No, Dave, I'm a very good sight reader. Which makes me TERRIBLE at learning by heart and also makes me v. lazy. Naughty giirl.
And you must be insane not to love the X Factor auditions; they're so bad they're wonderful! I don't watch it after the mass auditions though.

Maybe Its only us girls that like the X Factor!? We just love to watch the poor so an so's dreams shatter before their very eyes!

i've been practising the emperor concerto today, which, after a days teaching piano is a bit of a brain-fryer. Actually its a brain fryer without the teaching. . . . So many notes, so many awkward turns - never mind brahms 1 or rachmaninoff 3, beethoven 5 is a behemoth of a work.

'As fast as you can, as slow as you must', as the Board says. Just select a comfortable speed and stick to it; the nome isn't a stopwatch, it just keeps you regular...better than Branflakes! Try 120 per note to start with, and concentrate on getting it even. Speed can come later once you're 100% secure on which finger goes on which note.

Hey Dave!

I don't use the nome on my Clav much I find it annoying a bit, ( thankfully you can adjust the volume of it ). When doing scales I just find a comfortable speed to do them at and try to keep an even rhythm.

I really like to do chromatics as fast as I can because there fun, sometimes really slowly. Its fun to do a combination of speeds, touches and dynamics when doing any scales; it keeps them fresh and not boring.

Been having A few bad sessions on my piano lately I think its because its geting cold and my hands are always freezing! I always feel cold. I could hardly play that Vivaldi piece the other day .

Dave, that method of doing chromatics is not MY method its just the standard way of doing them. Its the way of doing them from my scale book.

Hi Dave,

I'm full of envy for the kind of pieces you tackle! I can't wait to get a bit better advanced so I can talk tactics with you too. I'm sure Mozart will be putty in your hands.

Jan
x

2am? Joys of the menopause, poppet. Nothing like a hot flush to get you up and pootering...

Hi Dave!

I wasn't having ago at you! not at all, just don't want any piano novices on this site to think I'm some kind of piano guru or something! .
( I'm far from it! )

Is that Mozart piece you have to learn fast,? because the actual symphony of it is played quite slowly(ish) . I don't have the theme to that I wouldn't mind to learn it though.

Had about 2 hours on my piano today, Its going ok better then yesterday. I had a go at learning the Moonlight Sonata 1st movement, I'm up to
bar 5 at the mo. But I'm not so used to having to stretch my hand so much.

I'm wondering is it wise for someone at my ablity ( 7 months pratice so far ) to tackle it yet? Or should I wait when my touch has developed better? Its quite difficult to play it at pp consistenly. I don't mind how long it takes me to learn this piece, Ill do a bit everyday...but I will continue with my beginner books too.

Any comments? anyone who is a lot more experienced????

I don't suppose it'll hurt you; I spent my pianohood trying stuff that was far too hard for me. Just don't expect to sound like the CDs!
But as a poet says (can't remember who) 'a man's reach must exceed his grasp, or what's a heaven for?'
Sorry...put it down to insomnia. Or insanity, whichever!

As Dave knows, I'm Mrs Grumpy Drawers tonight. What didn't help my mood is my 3-year-old trying to put the keyboard cover down over my fingers while I was playing. Poor dot got shouted at, she got upset, I got upset for shouting. Heyyyyyy. I'm usually more patient than this, but the bs factor at work made it worse, so really it's not her fault.

Anyone got any tips on how to gently encourage a small child at this age? I don't want her to think it's a No Go area, but it's not a toy and I need practice myself yet I want her to love it too *sigh*

I'm off now to try and learn how to be reasonable again!

Love to all,
Jan
x

Jan, there's a kid's picture book called 'Octave and his Piano' by Gerard/Gerald Moncomble. Translated from French, top half tells the story of Octave the mouse who lives in an old piano when one day his life is turned upside down because the piano is to be restored. I shan't tell you the end, it'll spoil it! At the bottom half of the page, you get a sprog-friendly history of the piano.

Gill the Piano wrote:Just don't expect to sound like the CDs!

Na... I don't expect to, I'm not Daniel Bareboim!! At least it will get me used to those evil looking leger lines in the bass clef grrrr .I suffer form insomnia too sometimes, mostly every month.

Hi Dave!

Yeah sorry I will PM you to mo with my email, bit bussy at the moment.

See you to mo! bye!

See Dave? Just starting Grade 1 and already showing off at the first chance! What'll you be like by the time you get to Grade 8?

Wow Dave, look at you entertaining guests with your piano playing!!! That's fantastic though, its brilliant how much your confidence has increased since your first piano lesson.

Aww bless you Gill, my Mum went through all the hot flushes recently and it was a very difficult time! Did you watch The X-Factor on Saturday?? Some very funny people on there this week - such as the Scottish lady confused over Whitney Houston songs!!!

dave brum wrote:Thought you'd left us, Marky! How are you? Have you been sunning yourself in exotic parts like Bodrum, Negril or Colwyn Bay?

I'm doing fine thanks. As for sunning myself - hardly. Not unless flourescent classroom lights can give you a tan! I started back to work two weeks ago and have been up-to-my-eyes in paperwork and admin. For teachers, September, December and June are the three main blackspots for work overload!

hi Jan

My daughter is 4, and she isn't sure about me practising on the piano either...! I've bought a book called something like 'the Princess piano book' and it's got music in it from Beauty and the Beast, Sleeping Beauty, Snow White etc. All pre-grade 1 arrangements, and perfect if she ever wants to start learning, but also good for me to warm up with if she's there - as she knows the songs and can sing along. That way we're both happy!

Linzy

But your breaking bad habits when you encounter those fingerings. Don't give up on them so quickly. Practising pieces slowly is actually a good method for refining fingering, hand position, note accuracy and so on.

Besides, you don't want to end up coming home on the bus from your next music lesson with your fingers in plaster-of-paris!

As I said in reply to your e-mail, that piece is a little tricky for someone tackling Grade 1 so don't get too discouraged!

joseph wrote:RH (same fingering makes more sense if i start it on D though, so you can see why C has a 2) HONEST IT WORKS!

D-1 D#-3(or 2) E-1 F-2 F#-3 G-1 G#-2 A-3 A#-4 B-1 C-2 C#-3 D-1 etc


LH

D-1 D#- 3 E-2 F-1 F#-4 G-3 G#-2 A-1 A#-3 B-2 C-1 C#-3(or 2) D-1

This is what I meant. Also it facilitates contrary motion scales in a way that the AB fingering doesn't, and its faster.

Yes, yes, yes! At last someone else is advocating the fingering I was taught as a child! It takes a smidgeon longer to learn, but boy, is it faster once you've got the hang of it and there's so much less tension in your hands when you're using four fingers instead of three. Trust me guys, I'm a teacher!!

Yes Celestite,

I find that the ABRSM fingering of 131312 etc only works to get the child over the notes in the first instance. Using that fingering in a piece sounds clumsy - imagine doing it in a Chopin study or a Mozart concerto - you'd quickly come a cropper!. Let's have a campaign for good fingering......