Last September I bought a Kemble piano (around 5000 pounds) from a shop I don't want to name at this stage. After a very short time, I noticed that the piano was bubbling, called my expert technician who wasn't able to repair it, then contacted Kemble who sent its technicians, but again they were not able to solve the problem. They took the piano to the factory, and it came back yesterday, after about 2 weeks. The bubbling problem was sorted, but unfortunately now I have another problem. What happens is that when I do a piano or even worse pianissimo pressure on many keys (particularly from the middle to the low tones) the sound produced is completely "deaf" and somewhat metallic, due to the fact that the string hit by the hammer is not released by the "thing" (sorry I don't know the technical term, and am not English) that normally holds it.
On top of it, the feel and touch of the piano is not the same as it used to be before it was brought to the factory. Basically I cannot play soft pieces, not only because of the problem mentioned above, but also because the hammers seem to hit the strings too hard anyway. I suspect that what Kemble technicians have done is exactly what my trusted technician didn't want to do, which is "reduce the set off distance to over 6mm" (copy and paste of his email).
Now, I would need somebody's advice about what I should do considering that:
1) When the piano arrived at home the first time, it was not tuned to concert pitch. I had to pay for the 1st tuning.
2) the communication with the dealer during the months was very poor and in too many cases, they didn't reply to my emails
3) Although their service was fairly good and prompt, the communication with Kemble was poor from the moment they took the piano to the factory. I sent them 3 email and they replied only to my last one as I was pretty upset. However, I still haven't received an answer to my questions (I need a descriptive report of the job they have done to my piano, plus info about who should tune it now), and the piano is already at home.
4) I feel disheartened and disappointed. This piano, which is supposed to be one of the best of its category, and is also a present of my girlfriend, has become a nightmare and I have enough of it. Surely, I can't play it happily, and when I do my performance is very much jeopardised.
For these reasons, I intend to ask for a full refund and buy another piano somewhere else. How does it work here in England? Do you think I would be entitled to ask for a refund? Please note that I am paying it monthly over 2 years. Would I be able to ask for a refund of the interests I am paying (10% of the total amount?). Any lawyers out there? Thanks for all your suggestions.
Below you find the report of my piano technician when he looked at it:
Just to confirm what I found when I saw your piano today. I was fully
expecting to perform the usual remedy of increasing the depth of touch
to allow more 'after touch', the absence of which may have been causing
your hammers to bubble on the strings when played pp. I quickly
discovered that this was not the cause and fully covered all the obvious
faults of regulation (negative rake on hammer shanks, jack slap rail too
close, damper slap rail too close, stiff tapes, etc) which may have been
responsible. I could increase the set off distance to over 6mm but as I
demonstrated to you, this has an adverse effect on the touch. I have
replaced one of the butt cushions with felt which is twice the thickness
of the original with partial success - I feel that this, coupled with
the jack springs being too strong, may be the solution. However, this is
more than just a simple repair as it involves stripping down the action.
I also noticed something else which concerns me - when I removed the
action from the piano I found it to be under a considerable twisting
strain rather than slotting into the action bolts easily.
As this piano is almost new and still under guarantee I believe that
Kemble should be made aware of these problems and suggest that the piano
is returned to the factory. I would be grateful if you could keep me
informed of the progress and final outcome so that I am prepared when I
meet other pianos of the same model.[/i]
legal issues - please advise
Moderators: Feg, Gill the Piano, Melodytune
I wouldn't trust the answers you get here, since while most of us think we know the law, we probably don't know it properly.
My advice would be to ask for a free half-hour consultation with a solicitor, who will be able to tell you what should be done. If you're not happy with the advice, just go to another solicitor for another free half-hour session.
Once you understand your legal position, you will be much clearer in your head as to what you need to do.
My advice would be to ask for a free half-hour consultation with a solicitor, who will be able to tell you what should be done. If you're not happy with the advice, just go to another solicitor for another free half-hour session.
Once you understand your legal position, you will be much clearer in your head as to what you need to do.
Otto
The " free "1st tuning should have been carried out by the dealer but some wont so they can keep the retail price low. Is the dealer local to you?
I would try Kemble again. Write them a letter detailing clearly the problems and register its posting to the MD if nessesary. Ive always found Kembles to be a ok company ( not that ive had many problems with their pianos).
I guess you have to go back to the dealer for a refund as thats who you have the contract with. But as advised in other posts seek legal advice if you are not sure. Does your house contents insurance have a legal help line. As youve got finance on it you can get them involved as well. In fact they might be worth contacting first as it may take time.
Probably better to try the nicely nicely route for a bit longer as once the legal side gets involved people dig in and the only winners are the shiney suits.
I would try Kemble again. Write them a letter detailing clearly the problems and register its posting to the MD if nessesary. Ive always found Kembles to be a ok company ( not that ive had many problems with their pianos).
I guess you have to go back to the dealer for a refund as thats who you have the contract with. But as advised in other posts seek legal advice if you are not sure. Does your house contents insurance have a legal help line. As youve got finance on it you can get them involved as well. In fact they might be worth contacting first as it may take time.
Probably better to try the nicely nicely route for a bit longer as once the legal side gets involved people dig in and the only winners are the shiney suits.
Re: legal issues - please advise
Just on an aside to the information you've been given here, in order to protect the credibility of your 'case', should your complaint go any further than it has already and end up in court, I would not mention the name of the local retailer from whom you bought the piano at any stage on this forum. The last thing you want is someone trying to accuse you of defamation or slander!ermy73 wrote:Last September I bought a Kemble piano (around 5000 pounds) from a shop I don't want to name at this stage. I
meet other pianos of the same model.
Just be careful for your own benefit. The situation may be resolved very amicably by contacting Kembles directly as the others have advised.
Last edited by markymark on 22 Jan 2008, 19:16, edited 1 time in total.
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Barrie Heaton
- Site Admin
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- Location: Lanc's
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The twisted beam rail should have been spotted by Kembles QC However, it could havwe been caused by the tuner at the shop not supporting the action when voicing
the problem you have now sound like the depth of touch is too deep this may have been done by your tuner but again Kembles QC should have spotted it when it was in the factory
I would get back to Kembles see what they before going down the Trading Standards road
Barrie,
the problem you have now sound like the depth of touch is too deep this may have been done by your tuner but again Kembles QC should have spotted it when it was in the factory
I would get back to Kembles see what they before going down the Trading Standards road
Barrie,
Barrie Heaton
Web Master UK Piano Page
Web Master UK Piano Page
Thanks everybody for all your precious advices so far.
Unless either Kemble or the unnamable
retailer will do a decent and satisfactory offer, my intention is to return the piano ASAP and ask for a full refund. The thing is that every time I play this piano my performance is very much jeopardised by the negative memories which are linked to its purchase, not to mention the unpleasant sound it still makes, and the feel and touch which have changed after the repair process. The worst is that it is my partner's present, very unpleasant indeed to have bad memories of this event!!!
I have already written the letter I would like to send to the shop, I still don't know if I'll go to a solicitor at this stage. If any of you bothers to read it and give me any suggestions (also because I am not English), your help would be more than appreciated. Here is the copy/paste. Really thanks for your help
Dear Mr XXXXXXXX,
I contact you to inform you about the progresses with the Kemble K121CLM that I have received yesterday, after 2 weeks that it was at the factory for repairs. The bubbling problem has been solved, but unfortunately now another new problem has occurred. What happens is that when I do a piano or even worse pianissimo pressure on many keys (particularly from the middle to the low tones) the sound produced is completely "deaf" and somewhat metallic, due to the fact that the string hit by the hammer is not released by the "thing" (sorry I don't know the technical term) that normally holds it.
On top of it, the feel and touch of the piano is not the same as it used to be before it was brought to the factory. Basically, I cannot play soft pieces, not only because of the problem mentioned above, but also because the hammers seem to hit the strings too hard anyway. I suspect that what Kemble technicians have done is exactly what my tuner didn't want to do, which is (I quote from his email) "reduce the set off distance to over 6mm”. However, I am not a technician and this is just an assumption.
Please note that at this stage it is my intention to return the piano and ask for a full refund as this item does not meet the requirements of satisfactory quality expressed in The Sale of Goods Act 1979 (as amended). In dealing with this issue, I would like you to take into account the following factors that have further contributed to my choice of returning this faulty item.
1) The piano arrived at home after 2 weeks of signing the agreement on Wednesday 12th of September 2007. I would like to stress that you had verbally promised to deliver the piano within the Monday following the purchase (which means17th of September). I would also like to emphasise that an earlier delivery was promised as a result of the purchase of the Kemble K121CLM instead of the Yamaha P121 which would have cost me a difference of about £2200.
2) When I received the piano on 26/09/2007, it was not ready as one would expect from a more than £5000 worth purchase. As a matter of fact, the piano had not been properly tuned and what’s worst it was not at concert pitch. This cost me extra money to pay to the tuner. Please note that in that occasion I preferred not to complain as I should have done. Although verbally, we had agreed that you would have been responsible for the first tuning, which I understand it’s a common practice in this field.
3) During these months, the communication with XXXXX has been unacceptably poor, something nobody would expect after spending more than £5000. I have a list of unreplied emails sent well before Christmas. In most occasions, I had to call the shop in order to be taken into consideration. Please also note that I still haven’t received the refund of £48 for XXXXX’s work, of which I sent copy of the receipt by fax before Christmas.
4) In spite of having seen the same piano at a lower price in other shops (some hundreds pounds), and having spoken with you about this over the phone the day after I signed the agreement, (which means I could have easily withdrawn from the contract) I still decided to carry on the deal with you, not only because you gave me a nice piano stool as a present, but also because you had gained my trust. Had I known the consequences of my choice I would have certainly tried somewhere else.
5) I feel disheartened and disappointed. This piano, which you described as to be one of the best of its category, and which is also a present of my girlfriend, has caused more grief than joy, and I cannot hide that I have had enough of it and of the lack of attention and care demonstrated by your company. Every time I play this piano my performance is very much jeopardised by the negative memories that are linked to its purchase, not to mention the unpleasant sound it still makes, and the feel and touch which have changed after the repair process. A piano like this should be a purchase for life, how sad this is.
As a result of all this, plus the fact that the piano is still faulty despite it was in Kemble’s hands for 2 weeks, I feel I have all the moral reasons and certainly the legal rights to return the piano to you and ask for a full refund.
Please also note that I intend to involve XXXX (the finance company) and enquire about all the financial aspects (what and whose rights, duties and responsibilities) involved with the agreement I have signed with them through you.
I look forward to receiving your written response as soon as possible, hoping that this matter will find a satisfactory solution.
Unless either Kemble or the unnamable
retailer will do a decent and satisfactory offer, my intention is to return the piano ASAP and ask for a full refund. The thing is that every time I play this piano my performance is very much jeopardised by the negative memories which are linked to its purchase, not to mention the unpleasant sound it still makes, and the feel and touch which have changed after the repair process. The worst is that it is my partner's present, very unpleasant indeed to have bad memories of this event!!! I have already written the letter I would like to send to the shop, I still don't know if I'll go to a solicitor at this stage. If any of you bothers to read it and give me any suggestions (also because I am not English), your help would be more than appreciated. Here is the copy/paste. Really thanks for your help
Dear Mr XXXXXXXX,
I contact you to inform you about the progresses with the Kemble K121CLM that I have received yesterday, after 2 weeks that it was at the factory for repairs. The bubbling problem has been solved, but unfortunately now another new problem has occurred. What happens is that when I do a piano or even worse pianissimo pressure on many keys (particularly from the middle to the low tones) the sound produced is completely "deaf" and somewhat metallic, due to the fact that the string hit by the hammer is not released by the "thing" (sorry I don't know the technical term) that normally holds it.
On top of it, the feel and touch of the piano is not the same as it used to be before it was brought to the factory. Basically, I cannot play soft pieces, not only because of the problem mentioned above, but also because the hammers seem to hit the strings too hard anyway. I suspect that what Kemble technicians have done is exactly what my tuner didn't want to do, which is (I quote from his email) "reduce the set off distance to over 6mm”. However, I am not a technician and this is just an assumption.
Please note that at this stage it is my intention to return the piano and ask for a full refund as this item does not meet the requirements of satisfactory quality expressed in The Sale of Goods Act 1979 (as amended). In dealing with this issue, I would like you to take into account the following factors that have further contributed to my choice of returning this faulty item.
1) The piano arrived at home after 2 weeks of signing the agreement on Wednesday 12th of September 2007. I would like to stress that you had verbally promised to deliver the piano within the Monday following the purchase (which means17th of September). I would also like to emphasise that an earlier delivery was promised as a result of the purchase of the Kemble K121CLM instead of the Yamaha P121 which would have cost me a difference of about £2200.
2) When I received the piano on 26/09/2007, it was not ready as one would expect from a more than £5000 worth purchase. As a matter of fact, the piano had not been properly tuned and what’s worst it was not at concert pitch. This cost me extra money to pay to the tuner. Please note that in that occasion I preferred not to complain as I should have done. Although verbally, we had agreed that you would have been responsible for the first tuning, which I understand it’s a common practice in this field.
3) During these months, the communication with XXXXX has been unacceptably poor, something nobody would expect after spending more than £5000. I have a list of unreplied emails sent well before Christmas. In most occasions, I had to call the shop in order to be taken into consideration. Please also note that I still haven’t received the refund of £48 for XXXXX’s work, of which I sent copy of the receipt by fax before Christmas.
4) In spite of having seen the same piano at a lower price in other shops (some hundreds pounds), and having spoken with you about this over the phone the day after I signed the agreement, (which means I could have easily withdrawn from the contract) I still decided to carry on the deal with you, not only because you gave me a nice piano stool as a present, but also because you had gained my trust. Had I known the consequences of my choice I would have certainly tried somewhere else.
5) I feel disheartened and disappointed. This piano, which you described as to be one of the best of its category, and which is also a present of my girlfriend, has caused more grief than joy, and I cannot hide that I have had enough of it and of the lack of attention and care demonstrated by your company. Every time I play this piano my performance is very much jeopardised by the negative memories that are linked to its purchase, not to mention the unpleasant sound it still makes, and the feel and touch which have changed after the repair process. A piano like this should be a purchase for life, how sad this is.
As a result of all this, plus the fact that the piano is still faulty despite it was in Kemble’s hands for 2 weeks, I feel I have all the moral reasons and certainly the legal rights to return the piano to you and ask for a full refund.
Please also note that I intend to involve XXXX (the finance company) and enquire about all the financial aspects (what and whose rights, duties and responsibilities) involved with the agreement I have signed with them through you.
I look forward to receiving your written response as soon as possible, hoping that this matter will find a satisfactory solution.
Please don't send the letter. See a solicitor - it won't cost you anything other than your time, initially.
You are too close to the problem to be as objective as you need to be and I note that you mention technical deficiencies. If it gets into a technical argument you will lose, because they know much more than you do.
If you get into a losing position and then have to get help to turn the argument round, winning gets much harder. As you point out, English is not your first language and I'm afraid though it's very good, it does show.
A solicitor may suggest that he writes a letter to the MD of Kemble along the lines of:
"My client is so upset with the way he has been treated by XXXXX and yourselves, he has lost all confidence in you and seeks a full refund. May I suggest that this would be a very wise course of action, since we all want to avoid any further expense and complications over this matter"
If that does the trick (and I bet it will) then even if it costs you £25 it has to be worth it.
The finance company will almost certainly kick up a fuss, and someone needs to sort them out too.
You are too close to the problem to be as objective as you need to be and I note that you mention technical deficiencies. If it gets into a technical argument you will lose, because they know much more than you do.
If you get into a losing position and then have to get help to turn the argument round, winning gets much harder. As you point out, English is not your first language and I'm afraid though it's very good, it does show.
A solicitor may suggest that he writes a letter to the MD of Kemble along the lines of:
"My client is so upset with the way he has been treated by XXXXX and yourselves, he has lost all confidence in you and seeks a full refund. May I suggest that this would be a very wise course of action, since we all want to avoid any further expense and complications over this matter"
If that does the trick (and I bet it will) then even if it costs you £25 it has to be worth it.
The finance company will almost certainly kick up a fuss, and someone needs to sort them out too.
Otto
Thanks for your suggestion Otto, I perfectly see your point, although I'd like to avoid the solicitor at this stage. I'll write a softer and less polemic letter, without mentioning the technical issues as you said. First of all I'll contact Kemble though, let's see their feedback. I'll post something as soon as there are news. Thanks again everybody.
ER
ER
As the piano is "not fit for it's intended use", you have every right to ask for a refund, esp. as the manufacturer has attempted to rectify the original fault and sent back a piano which still can't be played. I would have a word with your local Trading Standards officer. If the dealer is reluctant to give you a refund, just mentioning Trading Standards is often enough to persuade them.