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So my needs are pretty simple . I want to buy a piano for my flat that doesn't take up much space and can be easily dismantled from stand and put away when necessary. Also it must have built in speakers and the facility to plug in headphones so as not to bother room mates. Sound quality of course if vital - I'd like it sound so as much as possible to a grand piano without being too grand a price i.e. I don't want to spend over £1K.

The piano is intended for home playing as opposed to performance and I'm not too bothered about having extra sound features e.g. harpsichord etc. I am getting good feedback on Yamaha and Roland but don't know which to go for.

All tips appreicated!

without a shadow of a doubt i would recommend the yamaha p120, it has built in speakers, 4 layer sampling (basically - as near to a piano sound as you will get) and also features half pedalling; it has 4 different piano sounds (classical piano, jazz piano etc) also has harpsichord... the hammer effect is superb and the keys are even slightly heavier to press on the low notes - just like a grand.

what yamaha did here was do away with all the effects, bells and whistles and just create a digital piano as close to a yamaha grand piano as possible - i dont think i have ever read a bad review... classical pianists come into the music shop and are stunned by its sound and touch...

it is very portable as well, i think it only weighs around 18kg...

the only drawback is the price... on ebay you'll probably be looking at around £400... brand new £700... but hey, its the best of the bunch

The P series really stands for “Personal Piano” range and so, as honeyfunk says, Yamaha designed this keyboard with the mindset that it will be first and foremostly a piano without all the gadgets, rhythms, tacky, pre-recorded songs, etc! The P series also offer the hammer action keyboard which knocks the pants off ANY weighted action keyboard out there. The key mechanisms in the P series beautifully and accurately reproduce the hammer action on a real acoustic. My CP300 is a top-of-the-range stage piano, but has the same board as its P series relatives. The P120 is good but I think it’s one of the older models. The P140 and P70 are the more popular models but I’m by no means brushing aside the P120! The fact that this model has been around for a bit longer than the others means that you’ll probably get a better bargain! Again, the “bigger bucks” are only paying for other extras and a more powerful set of speakers that you could be probably do without anyway.

At the end of the day, it really depends on how much you want to spend.... In any case, as I’ve said to other people in the past, try before you buy. Never buy anything without seeing what it’s like. The good thing about digital instruments is that once you try it in a shop, you can order them online at a good price and the quality will be the same. This is not the case with acoustic instruments by-the-way.

Hope this helps!

Thanks for the info. Apparently P120 was disontinued last year and replaced by P140. I can't find anyone who is selling the P120 . Any thoughts on the P140? I've heard it played and sounds pretty good.
Ruth

The main difference I can see is that the P120 seems to have had more powerful speakers than the P140 which is rather strange. As the P140 is supposed to be an upgraded model, you’ll get extra features like voice variations and extra reverb effects. As mentioned earlier, the GHS keyboard will be installed on this model too. In fact, ALL Yamaha P-series models have the same GHS keyboard.

Try out the P140 for yourself – did you try the P120? When you’ve compared, make your choice. As both instruments are so similar, the little extras I mentioned earlier may be the deciding factor. Having a few extra voice variations can be quite refreshing when you get used to a particular tone of piano. Touch will be the same given that they use the same keyboard hardware.

The good thing about digital instruments is that once you try it in a shop, you can order them online at a good price and the quality will be the same.

I had a quick look around and found a couple of websites selling brand new P120 around the 700+ GBP mark which isn’t a good price for what is now technically an obsolete model. I did a quick check for P140 and found a good deal (click on the link below to see for yourself).

http://www.rockingrooster.co.uk/product ... 6-120.html 640.00GBP (not including 25GBP p&p)

Many dealers seem to be pricing this anywhere from 670 - 930GBP. This seems to be a special offer. If you like the keyboard (which you’ll decide when you try it of course!!!) you could use this to barter with your local retailer. Many dealers will try to match genuinely quoted prices.

Make sure you try the instrument, though, just to be sure it’s definitely what you want.
Let me know how you get on.

markymark wrote:

The good thing about digital instruments is that once you try it in a shop, you can order them online at a good price and the quality will be the same.

Interesting moral point of view!!!! Never mind keep it up because it will soon be like Yamaha accoustics. In some areas of the country if you want to try one in the flesh you have to travel 70-80 miles because no dealer will touch them for the reason quoted above. Plus when those owners want to sell them the residuals are appalling and the original suppling discount dealer isnt interested. But then its a digital so its almost worthless the moment youve bought it so that argument doesnt count.

yes you're right about the p120... sorry... have you tried ebay? i've never played the p140 but going by the p120, i'm sure it's very good

mdw wrote: But then its a digital so its almost worthless the moment youve bought it so that argument doesnt count.

So that's why we're ignoring it!

Why pay more when, by your own admission, digital instruments lose their value over a period of time. That is no newsflash! Getting the most for your money is hardly immoral! Most people call it "common sense". However, as mentioned in my last message, should the local retailer be willing to match the genuinely quoted price, then buy direct and save the wait!

As for the reference to Yamaha acoustic pianos, I think Vanergan would find it hard to squeeze a Model D Steinway undetected into her flat without upsetting the neighbours.

Somethings just have to be put on hold until another time! Sigh!

The way I read it was that you should go to the local bricks and morter retailer. You should spend time playing his stock in his showroom and then ask him to match the price of a bedroom discounter. I have a showroom with £75Ks worth of acoustic stock. I just love it when someone comes in and asks me to match a price where I would make £200 on a £4k Piano . Now if im a bedroom internet dealer then £200 for half an hours work is nice money. BUT from my point of view asking me to match that deal after playing my stock is outright rude and bloody bad manners , its about time more retailers stood up and said NO rather than jumping on the bandwagon. Pianos are not baked beans. The customer is not going to be back for another one next week. If you sell the item and make zip on it that profit is gone for ever. There are too many gutless sheep in this industry who just want to copy the latest idea. I dont mind compeating on a fair basis with any one, but bedroom internet and garage dealers are not paying the rates costs etc I have to pay. Im in this for the long haul. Left school at 16 , 3 years training and doing this for the last 25 years and to be quite honest I resent what has happened in the last 5 years to this trade.

Rant over but I would be happy for some one else in the trade to stand up and be counted as well.

mdw wrote: Now if im a bedroom internet dealer then £200 for half an hours work is nice money. BUT from my point of view asking me to match that deal after playing my stock is outright rude and bloody bad manners , its about time more retailers stood up and said NO rather than jumping on the bandwagon. .

But the biggest discounters are not back bedroom and never have been. They are some of the biggest retailers and have seen the power of the web and moved with it

Its a bit like the old corner shop when the supermarket moved in they died and the Net will kill the small retailer as a trade we don't like it but we will not stop it.

As to asking a retailer to match a price that's not rude its just good practise. Have you never asked is that the best price you can do when making a big purchase

There are retailers out there who have stock on their shop floor which cost more for them to buy, that what it is been sold for on the net. But that is not the discounters fault its the manufactures fault for putting in a price structure that allowed it to happen

Barrie,

Barrie Heaton wrote:

mdw wrote:
As to asking a retailer to match a price that's not rude its just good practise. Have you never asked is that the best price you can do when making a big purchase

There are retailers out there who have stock on their shop floor which cost more for them to buy, that what it is been sold for on the net. But that is not the discounters fault its the manufactures fault for putting in a price structure that allowed it to happen

Barrie,

My argument is that I am being used as a free showroom by people who have no intention of buying from me at a price that reflect the costs of holding the stock. Simple solution is I stop holding the stock and go back to 2nd hand stock and forget the new. As ive stated on the digital page if you want to buy Yam acoustic in areas of the country you have to travel huge distances as no retailer will hold it. Is that realy good for the customer.
I agree re the manufacturers being at fault but also the retailers who cant control themselves. I am praying for a realy hard recesion to cull out all those who think you can run a business on a tiny profit.
Look at ebay at the moment youve either got people who think ohh I play the piano therefore I can be a piano expert or they are balling out stock what looks like most of their stock at rock bottom prices in desperation as I guess they are finding it hard. ( and I didnt have to look too far to find find these 2 examples).

I also think a bit of self control and unity among dealers would help. We are not selling baked beans here. Once you have given the profit away on a good acoustic its gone for ever as your not going to sell another one to the same customer next week as well.

We can all jump on the band wagon or stand for what we think is right.

Well if you know of anyone who can beat me on the price of £700 for the P140 let me know!

mdw wrote: My argument is that I am being used as a free showroom by people who have no intention of buying from me at a price that reflect the costs of holding the stock.

Yes you are providing a free display particularly if you live down south I have witnessed phone calls at 2 retailers telling buyers to go in to Chappels of Bond street and play X piano if you like we will sell it you X pound cheaper and that is not just your B1s I seen S6 go that way and it even more so with digitalis

mdw wrote:
Simple solution is I stop holding the stock and go back to 2nd hand stock and forget the new.

That is what made Yamaha change their T&Cs they were losing retailers but it is too late as the discounting is still there just a bit more expensive for the GP and evon less mark up on the low end product of both D and A pianos

mdw wrote: I agree re the manufacturers being at fault but also the retailers who cant control themselves. I am praying for a realy hard recesion to cull out all those who think you can run a business on a tiny profit.

It will kill at lot off a lot of small shops first I know 4 of the big discounters 2 in D and 2 in A and they have money behind them just like the supermarkets

Barrie,

Vanergan wrote:Well if you know of anyone who can beat me on the price of £700 for the P140 let me know!

I thought I had! Scoot up a bit and see my, well now, third last posting on Mon Jan 07, 2008.


As for this point:

mdw wrote:We are not selling baked beans here. Once you have given the profit away on a good acoustic its gone for ever as your not going to sell another one to the same customer next week as well.

We can all jump on the band wagon or stand for what we think is right.

If you're referring to acoustic pianostock, I don't know of anyone in their right mind that would buy an acoustic piano online - I daresay that there are a few folks out there that are a few slices short of the full pan and do that but that could be to their own loss! As you will know, mdw, every acoustic piano is unique and has its own identity. To play a piano in a showroom and then order one boxed online is highly risky. If anyone is foolish enough to risk that kind of transaction, then they deserve what they get in the end - a disappointment compared to the one they liked in the showroom. I completely agree with you on that point.

However, as this is the digital piano forum, I will be talking about digital instruments from this point onwards. Unlike acoustic instruments, digital equipment, whether musical or not, depreciates the longer it sits in your house or studio and I make no apology for advising people, on the digital piano forum, to save money at the beginning of their ownership of their digital instrument. Obviously, that advice does not hold up when looking to by acoustics for the reasons already stated.

You would never walk into a car showroom, and buy the car (which has one of the highest rates of depreciation from a consumer's perspective) you want at the first price they quote you. You always shop around and do a bit of homework before getting to the purchasing stage. At the end of the day, consumers and traders always have the same question brewing at the back of their minds: "How much money will this transaction cost me?" The end result is usually bitter-sweet; for both parties involved, to greater or lesser extents, the deal will either be to the benefit of one and to the loss of the other, but rarely to the complete satisfaction of the two.

Barrie is absolutely right about price-searching being good practice and I appreciate his support of my view. I have been taken advantage of in the purchase of my first digital instrument nine year's ago, lulled into a state of false security by my local dealer. That comment by no means tars all local dealers with the one brush, but I wish someone told me about the dangers and exploitation that can take place in your local music store. From a consumer's point of view, we are not exactly buying baked beans here anymore than music stores are selling them; and most likely will not be buying again for a few years, if at all. In this day of high property prices, home mortgages, loans, reclamations, etc., how could you possibly, credibly criticise any consumer for wanting to save money? By saying that you are "praying for a really hard recession to cull out all those who think you can run a business on a tiny profit", it sounds like you are hoping for a situation where consumers will be forced to pay more on an instrument, to their loss, but to the benefit of the retailer.

There is no end to this kind of argument while a dealer and consumer try to argue what is fair and unfair in modern trade. While all your points about insurance and shop running costs are very true, very real and very unfortunate, your arguments about making money are no more important or valid than the consumer who wants or, more likely these days, needs to save money.

I am by no means trying to be controversial in this post, but in-keeping with the directness of the previous posts, I am merely adding balance to the discussion. The bottom line, then? The consumer can also be, and often is still, a victim in the world of modern trade.

Here endeth the lesson....

Just because they will sound exactly the same ( being digital ) doesnt make it any more moraly defensible to try in a shop and then buy online at a cheaper price. No wonder the online dealer can be cheaper hes not had to pay the higher town centre rates, the staff wages to demo the stock even the floor space cost having it setup with room to sit at it rather than 5 stacked in boxes on top of each other.

Trust me even in the "good times" very few of us were making lots of money in this trade digital or acoustic. My point is that if you dont support your local shop you will lose it. This is partly the fault of the manufacturers in that we are not all playing from the same start point. We stock Kemble as one of our brands and there are some dealers on the net retailing Yam acoustic ( similar but no the same ) for less than I have to pay Kemble for the same size piano. How does that work!!!

When I sell a piano I want a long term relationship with that piano/ customer. The box shifters dont want to see you if you have a problem. They cannot afford to on the margins they make. I have recently changed a piano for a customer in his late 80s who told me 9 months after he bought a piano from us that his hearing had deteriated and he needed a piano with a brighter tone. I gave him the full amount he paid for the first piano against the replacement one. How many box shifters do that.

Each month I get people ringing up wanting to sell pianos and when I suggest they should get the best price from the original supplier they all tell me the discounters are not interested at ANY price.

You can already buy Yam keyboards in LIDEl!!!! How much longer before its digitals pianos they stock as well because lets face it it only a few pounds more and a few keys more. Then your local music shop wont stock the stuff and guess what, you cant try the out in lidel cos they are boxed.

Your coment that "the deal will either be to the benefit of one and to the loss of the other, but rarely to the complete satisfaction of the two" is rather sad to hear. If a customer tries to push me too far on price I have tended to say I would rather not sell to them at that price as I DO wish to see them again and would not like to have the relationship tainted by thinking I was pushed beyond where I felt I could sensibly go.

A good deal is where both partys are happy.

mdw wrote:Just because they will sound exactly the same ( being digital ) doesnt make it any more moraly defensible to try in a shop and then buy online at a cheaper price.

I very much resent how you have taken select, out-of-context comments from my whole posting and misrepresent what I am really saying. You will find that all my postings have made mention of trying in a shop and pricing online prior to the visit so that you can barter with your local dealer. I've already talked about my experience with the purchase of my first digital piano at the hand of a local dealer. Basically you give him/her the chance to make a deal and then make the decision and see if you can cope with the final price - the ball is entirely in the dealer's court at that point.

If the dealer is unwilling to match or at least make some attempt to reduce the keyboard in price, and I have come across them in the past when dealing with digital instruments, then the responsibilty of a lost sale is on their own head and no one else's. Then, there is no reason to fault anyone buying online and that is my argument summed up in one sentence. I am by no means encouraging people to exploit the local trader by using it as a drop-in centre. If you're going to visit the shop and try the instrument(s), at least give the dealer a chance to sell the keyboard to you but not at the first price they quote you (in most cases anyway)!

Just for the record, I have bought ALL my digital instruments from local dealers but not before doing my homework after the first mishap. When you get bitten on the butt by a shark, you soon learn to look before getting back in the water... On my second purchase, the dealer entirely matched the price and on my latest purchase, the CP300, the dealer was upfront and said that he couldn't match the price because it was eating into his profits, but did say that he would reduce the price in order to make a sale. I paid £200 more for the stage piano than my best online price but agreed anyway out of consideration for the dealer. So, in light of that information, I'd thank you to leave personal digs at my morals out of the equation if it's all the same to you! Would I have liked to keep the money on an online purchases - of course! Was I therefore completely satisfied - not completely, but I still got a good deal, one that wouldn't have come my way unless I asked for it. Music shops can be a valuable asset when directed by a good dealer but unfortunately, there are a few Dick Turpins running music shops too and I feel they have played a part in discrediting the image of the genuine music dealer. You just have to scan through these forums over the past 3 or 4 years to see that they are out there.

On a different slant altogether: As for your customer relations, you must be one in a dying bread of traders as far as your impeccable follow-up service is concerned. I bought my new acoustic piano seven months ago. Besides the dealer trying to send a ready-paid visit from a tuner, just a week after the piano moved in, hardly giving it any settling time, I have not heard from them since! Your's are certainly foreign professional, yet essential, qualities of a local music trader. You wouldn't consider relocating further north?

We are seeing this problem from different sides of the same coin. You have obviously had a bad expereance with a piano dealer which is a shame.
I look at this from my side, I left school at 16 spent 3 years training and set up in business 25 years ago. My familys future is tied up in this trade as it is what I do and I dont really want to retrain to do something else as I enjoy my job. However, those customers who do come into our shop with internet print outs dont want us to drop a bit , they want us to match or beat the internet price but give the full service as well and be grateful to be offered the oppertunity .
Because we are a small piano shop we dont sell the amount of stock that the discounters do. So how am I supposed to compete when they retail stock at what it costs me or less than that. Part of this is that people are used to seeing MFI 75% off sales and think all trades are on that sort of false margin.

I worked out that last year I would have made almost as much profit had I emptied the showroom and rented the premesis out rather that run a business from it ( for a lot less effort).

I do belive that "up north" people put a greater value on music etc. Down here they know the price of everything and the value of nothing. That is a generalisation but seems like it some times.

Lots of general music shops dont employ a tuner which I guess is why there is no follow on back up. On the other hand most piano only specialists want a long term relationship as from cold hearted business point of view we probably make more profit over 15 years regular tuning etc than we would at the moment on a sale.

I do agree that prices need to be sensible but sensible to both sides other wise all that will be left is the web.

mdw wrote:I am praying for a realy hard recesion to cull out all those who think you can run a business on a tiny profit.

Looks like your prayers have been answered mdw...

A key point: "they know the price of everything and the value of nothing"

So ... evaluate the value of buying locally with support, advice, ability to try, maintenance, repairs, future upgrades, trade-ins etc etc and decide how much you are willing to pay for this. If you choose the internet your local dealer may not be around in the future for your convenience. Yet the local dealer must be competitive (after taking value into account) and must adapt with current and future trading trends or risk loss of loyalty.

It's a tough environment for both sellers and buyers especially now. Its not "fair" to use you local dealer to try stock with full expectation of buying over the internet, but then again many people do ... so dealers have to make the most of an opportunity that they otherwise might not have, to influence the sale and articulate their value.

You can also use the internet for value. Many sites host customer reviews alerting you to practicalities of ownership, advantages, shortcomings, reliability issues etc so it can work both ways!

Who said Cynic?

What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. Oscar Wilde (1854 - 1900), Lady Windermere's Fan, 1892, Act III

I think you'll find that mdw's comment about value of musical instruments comes from his generalisation of peoples' attitudes in the south of the nation and not "up north" as he puts it. I don't think it's fair assume that everyone has the same attitude, particularly sbout those who use these forums, however you did touch on a point over which mdw and I debated at length on this thread:

ennjaydee wrote:... evaluate the value of buying locally with support, advice, ability to try, maintenance, repairs, future upgrades, trade-ins etc etc and decide how much you are willing to pay for this.

First of all, most music shop owners I've worked with send their instruments off to the brand company (e.g. Yamaha, Korg, etc.) and consequently hardly ever do their own repairs or maintenance. Bear in mind we're talking about digital instruments! Upgrades? Which piano showroom would want to sell or part trade on a secondhand digital after one month never mind anything else unless it was faulty? Given that digital equipment devalues so quickly, no dealer wants the hassle of trying to shift old, used digital pianos and I don't blame them either!

Granted, if something goes wrong with the instrument, it is much easier to get the local dealer to sort it rather than having to send the instrument back to the dispatcher of the online dealer.

So.....

ennjaydee wrote:... how much you are willing to pay for this.

What is the value of being able to try before you buy, sometimes receive good advice about the instrument and the ability to hold a local retailer accountable for your faulty or unsuitable digital or stage piano? They won't do much else for you when it comes to digital instruments. I totally agree with you in that local dealers need to be competitive but not many of them are talking this way nor are they prepared to be competitive. There is no huge loss in paying an extra 200GBP for a keyboard from your local dealer to be honest - I've certainly done it in the past. But is it worth spending 400GBP..... 500GBP.... 600GBP... 700GBP more than the best online quote out there? I've seen these variations in price many times.

If you hold legally to Oscar Wilde's view of a cynic as being someone who "knows the price of everything and the value of nothing", then someone "who knows when they're being exploited and does nothing about it" must be naive, going by the opposite meaning!

Personally, I encourage people to try their instruments before they buy and that in itself is a good reason to support your local supplier. However, not everyone can afford to be "naive" in Wilde's sense of the word or in the literal sense for that matter. Many dealers - I'll not tar them all with the one brush - need to think about their prices that are fair, as mdw and I have already stated on this thread.

We're in full agreement markymark, and mdw.

Value for money is what's key, not lowest price. Agreed, for digital instruments there is limited value that can be added. But convenience and the mere existence of a local dealer has some value. So decide what it's worth to you, then make a choice.

Perhaps an Optimist is "Someone who expects their local dealer to remain in business to provide value while they order on-line", while "Someone who knows when they're being exploited and does nothing about it" must be an Idiot!

There are truly some sharks out there , both on-line and in the High Street, so don't get bitten either way!

Anyway back on topic - yep Yam P140 sounds like it'll fit the job! Or P85 if you want a lower price!

ennjaydee wrote:Anyway back on topic - yep Yam P140 sounds like it'll fit the job! Or P85 if you want a lower price!

Not to steal your thunder or anything, but this part applies to a different thread. But thanks for agreeing with me anyway!

markymark wrote "Not to steal your thunder or anything, but this part applies to a different thread"

Admittedly this thread's strayed to value v volume rants, but the last two posts by the author (and more) do refer P140. I chucked in P85 as a jest, to lower the price just in case value has been surpassed. It's the same GHS keyboard after all! Ha Ha.

Interesting debate though with valid points both ways. Do let us know Vanergan what you decide to buy.

One thing no-one has mentioned yet is operational support. This may not apply so much to straight digital pianos, but on more complex keyboards, it is a lot easier to pop into your local shop, where you originally bought the keyboard, ask any questions you might have about the operation of your keyboard and get someone to actually show you on an instrument in the shop. The only other option is to ring a manufacturer's helpline which, no matter how good the actual support may be, can be awkward and time consuming and is never as easy to understand as a hands-on demonstration.
Sadly, this facility is also being eroded by the fact that reduced margins make the cost of having trained staff, rather than plain sales assistants, ever more uneconomical, as has happened with dealer repair facilities.

In our part of the country, it has gone - very few sales assistants can hardly tell you how to operate the equipment never mind repair it.

ennjaydee wrote:markymark wrote "Not to steal your thunder or anything, but this part applies to a different thread"

Admittedly this thread's strayed to value v volume rants, but the last two posts by the author (and more) do refer P140. I chucked in P85 as a jest, to lower the price just in case value has been surpassed. It's the same GHS keyboard after all! Ha Ha.

Interesting debate though with valid points both ways. Do let us know Vanergan what you decide to buy.

Oh! I forgot that it was you who was asking about the P140 and the P85. I thought you were trying to advise Vanergan!

Altanner's thread subject Yamaha CLP 240 -> 340 illustrates local dealer support value. Unusual for digital instrument quality to vary but it does happen ...

Yes it does..... but at 40% more than the internet price?

CLP340s are not being sold at hugely discounted prices to start with but that price difference also reflects the fault of the local dealer in chasing away potential business.

Disgraceful! Or 'optimistic' perhaps?