Best new upright money can buy
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Ben Wimpenny
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Best new upright money can buy
What are members' opinions on the best new upright money can buy - assuming money is no object (and I am definitely not saying that is the case with me!) - Steinway Model K?
Ben Wimpenny
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Gill the Piano
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Where can you try a new Bosendorfer 130 in the UK?
The Steingraeber 138 I tried had a huge bass/tenor, but on that particular instrument I felt the treble lacking compared to other top quality uprights and wasn't happy with balance across the keyboard. However it is an excellent piano.
I just heard this week that 138's are now like 130's (probably after encouragement from Richard Dain who since Novemeber has become a Steingraeber agent) being fitted with the new DFM action.
When I looked seriously to buy last Spring, this is how I rated full size uprights available in the UK:
The best sounding, one of these four:
Bluthner model B
Ibach (at Peter Salisbury-but who stocks them now?)
Bechstein concert 8
Steingraeber 138
next:
Steinway K, Grotrian, Pleyel,
and Yamaha SU7
I prefer the Bluthner for sound(and bought one), and Bechstein, Steinway and Yamaha for actions.
We are fortunate in having such a choice. The K is by far the most expensive at nearly Ł22k, the cheapest is the SU7 at Ł10k.
Andy
The Steingraeber 138 I tried had a huge bass/tenor, but on that particular instrument I felt the treble lacking compared to other top quality uprights and wasn't happy with balance across the keyboard. However it is an excellent piano.
I just heard this week that 138's are now like 130's (probably after encouragement from Richard Dain who since Novemeber has become a Steingraeber agent) being fitted with the new DFM action.
When I looked seriously to buy last Spring, this is how I rated full size uprights available in the UK:
The best sounding, one of these four:
Bluthner model B
Ibach (at Peter Salisbury-but who stocks them now?)
Bechstein concert 8
Steingraeber 138
next:
Steinway K, Grotrian, Pleyel,
and Yamaha SU7
I prefer the Bluthner for sound(and bought one), and Bechstein, Steinway and Yamaha for actions.
We are fortunate in having such a choice. The K is by far the most expensive at nearly Ł22k, the cheapest is the SU7 at Ł10k.
Andy
There are a few 130s about, in spite of Bosendorfer's constant claim that they're going to stop production of it!
Not seen a Steingraeber 138, but I rate the 130 as OK if you like that sort of thing. I would hazard a guess that the Yamaha-engined PS model (note that they obviously rate the Yam action over the Renner) is the best of the bunch, and the DFM is an over-complicated curiosity just waiting for the first poorly trained tuner to louse up. Note that few repetition arrangements tried in upright actions have been successful.
As for Mr. Dain's involvement with Steingraeber, I feel that he's a very well intentioned, keen and enthusiastic ambassador for the company now that he's lost Bosendorfer who were his previous agency (and I suspect, his real true love in spite of having lost it) and in Steingraeber he's also found a willing and malleable partner to help build his Phoenix design . He evidently has a huge amount of disposable cash to toy with; something that few people in the Industry have these days. Most piano dealers just have debts, so fair play to him and his Cob-nuts! Having said that, I also believe that arsing about with brass studs on bridges is not all it's cracked up to be, as proved with great efficacy by the disaster that was the Collen-Broadwood some time ago now.
I too am a fan of the recent crop of Bluthner Bs, and I rather like the A too for it's classic styling and tonal balance, although the A's not the 'best upright that money can buy' by any stretch, and the Concert 8 sounds better from a distance than sitting at it, which is not what most people want from an upright.
That Yamaha SU7 at 10k takes a lot of beating in my book.
Not seen a Steingraeber 138, but I rate the 130 as OK if you like that sort of thing. I would hazard a guess that the Yamaha-engined PS model (note that they obviously rate the Yam action over the Renner) is the best of the bunch, and the DFM is an over-complicated curiosity just waiting for the first poorly trained tuner to louse up. Note that few repetition arrangements tried in upright actions have been successful.
As for Mr. Dain's involvement with Steingraeber, I feel that he's a very well intentioned, keen and enthusiastic ambassador for the company now that he's lost Bosendorfer who were his previous agency (and I suspect, his real true love in spite of having lost it) and in Steingraeber he's also found a willing and malleable partner to help build his Phoenix design . He evidently has a huge amount of disposable cash to toy with; something that few people in the Industry have these days. Most piano dealers just have debts, so fair play to him and his Cob-nuts! Having said that, I also believe that arsing about with brass studs on bridges is not all it's cracked up to be, as proved with great efficacy by the disaster that was the Collen-Broadwood some time ago now.
I too am a fan of the recent crop of Bluthner Bs, and I rather like the A too for it's classic styling and tonal balance, although the A's not the 'best upright that money can buy' by any stretch, and the Concert 8 sounds better from a distance than sitting at it, which is not what most people want from an upright.
That Yamaha SU7 at 10k takes a lot of beating in my book.
Interesting post Pianoguy. I hope to play a 138 with DFM in May when Dain next gets one in. I also have misgivings about wizz-bang technology (bit like heated electric wing mirrors on a car...)
One point though. Dain did not lose his Bosendorfer agency status. He was quite upfront about this. He got rid of them:
From what I remember of my visit, the story went like this...he told me he found them doing something not very nice behind his back.
He has a recording Stanke Bosendorfer Imperial with the latest "digital interface" (these are my words not his) connected to a computer. This allows recording, printing out, input of music, and playback naturally. Wow what a toy.
He, as an ex-engineer and piano-nut, together with an engineer friend devolped this new digital interface.
Now I can't remember all the details, but as I understand, a short time after they had completed the project, Bosendorfer asked his friend to help them put together a recording-player...Imperial. The friend went over to the continent only to find the set up/components pretty much identical.
Dain fired Bosendorfer, who remain agent-less in the UK I believe. You need a lot of capital to stock their pianos (anyone please tell me where I can try a new Bosie 130 upright). Nevertheless Dain remains a big fan of Bosendorfer pianos and has another Imperial in his house.
He is a very ethical chap from the little I have seen of him, being in his late 70's and not like a dealer at all, very much a retired enthusiast with knowledge, contacts, time and a millionaire obviously. Profits I believe are ploughed back into helping artists and financing the small concert venue on Site. He has also told me recently that he will never post very much on the net because dealers are...well..dealers and can so easily spoil things. T
At Hurstwood Farm there is no sales pressure. The setting is so unlike a shop, situated on a walnut farm in Kent.
As a piano enthusiast and ex-engineer he has developed his Pheonix-Steingraeber, which no doubt will be of fantastic Steingraeber build quality - a reason he chose them. He has advanced the Stuart design, in that I saw the strings go over a sharp ridge agraffe so that they vibrate vertically. The downbearing is individually adjustable to almost 0 for each string.
Perhaps someone can explain exactly this downbearing thing? Is it a scale design sound thing or does it also affect the action?
Incidentally, the Stuart 290 concert grand is the most extraordinary piano I've ever played. Fantastic action, a warm, rich and clear sound.
Dain's website has some interesting articles:
http://www.hurstwoodfarmpianos.co.uk/news.php?news_id=6
The first Phoenix is currently being shown off in Germany.
Andy
One point though. Dain did not lose his Bosendorfer agency status. He was quite upfront about this. He got rid of them:
From what I remember of my visit, the story went like this...he told me he found them doing something not very nice behind his back.
He has a recording Stanke Bosendorfer Imperial with the latest "digital interface" (these are my words not his) connected to a computer. This allows recording, printing out, input of music, and playback naturally. Wow what a toy.
He, as an ex-engineer and piano-nut, together with an engineer friend devolped this new digital interface.
Now I can't remember all the details, but as I understand, a short time after they had completed the project, Bosendorfer asked his friend to help them put together a recording-player...Imperial. The friend went over to the continent only to find the set up/components pretty much identical.
Dain fired Bosendorfer, who remain agent-less in the UK I believe. You need a lot of capital to stock their pianos (anyone please tell me where I can try a new Bosie 130 upright). Nevertheless Dain remains a big fan of Bosendorfer pianos and has another Imperial in his house.
He is a very ethical chap from the little I have seen of him, being in his late 70's and not like a dealer at all, very much a retired enthusiast with knowledge, contacts, time and a millionaire obviously. Profits I believe are ploughed back into helping artists and financing the small concert venue on Site. He has also told me recently that he will never post very much on the net because dealers are...well..dealers and can so easily spoil things. T
At Hurstwood Farm there is no sales pressure. The setting is so unlike a shop, situated on a walnut farm in Kent.
As a piano enthusiast and ex-engineer he has developed his Pheonix-Steingraeber, which no doubt will be of fantastic Steingraeber build quality - a reason he chose them. He has advanced the Stuart design, in that I saw the strings go over a sharp ridge agraffe so that they vibrate vertically. The downbearing is individually adjustable to almost 0 for each string.
Perhaps someone can explain exactly this downbearing thing? Is it a scale design sound thing or does it also affect the action?
Incidentally, the Stuart 290 concert grand is the most extraordinary piano I've ever played. Fantastic action, a warm, rich and clear sound.
Dain's website has some interesting articles:
http://www.hurstwoodfarmpianos.co.uk/news.php?news_id=6
The first Phoenix is currently being shown off in Germany.
Andy
I would have thought that there would be few other makes small enough to indulge him. Explain 'fantastic' build quality? I reckon it's just decent German build, nothing more, nothing less, with a very lacklustre finish on painted frame parts. Let's hope Mr. Dain's design addresses Steingraeber's dreadful sense of aesthetic design and proportion, which for me outweighs any attributes of sonic and playing capability which the pianos may or may not deliver. Nothing wrong with them if you like them I suppose. The Uprights are fine in a sober colour, but I couldn't live with any of their ugly grands. Expensive too.andyaeola wrote: At Hurstwood Farm there is no sales pressure. The setting is so unlike a shop, situated on a walnut farm in Kent.
As a piano enthusiast and ex-engineer he has developed his Pheonix-Steingraeber, which no doubt will be of fantastic Steingraeber build quality - a reason he chose them.
Whatever his motives, it's refeshing to see such ethical practice in piano sales from a true enthusiast, and whilst i'm still unconvinced that his tweakings to agraffes and bridges are little more than personal research, it's good to see someone keeping innovation alive.
Bosendorfer are now officially imported by a firm in Sudbury, Suffolk, and dealers include Bristol Piano Company, Pianoforte (Oxford) and Edinburgh Pianos. I'm sure there are others too, so there is bound to be a 130 amongst them.
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Gill the Piano
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This is good news, am I right that the Sudbury importer chap is Colin Taylor?
Oxford is not too far away, and perhaps Harrods will again start to stock Bosies.
As to build quality, Dain could have gone a cheaper route - Eastern European or a Larry Fine 'Tier 2' maker. But I believe the Phoenix is in the E272 cabinet. Anyway he chose a 'Tier 1' company to build it.
As an amateur-enthusiast who pokes his head inside and underneath to look at the finish etc, I would have put Steingraeber up at the top of any rankings for build along with Bechstein, Bosendorfer and Hamburg Steinway. Fantastic may have been too strong a word, I admit.
The Stuarts had the best finish I've ever seen. Never had the pleasure of examining a Fazioli. Every time I've been in Jaques Samuel they're sold out.
It would be most interesting and illuminating if any of the experienced techs here could rank the Tier 1, 2 and 3 pianos known to them in terms of build quality alone.
Andy
Oxford is not too far away, and perhaps Harrods will again start to stock Bosies.
As to build quality, Dain could have gone a cheaper route - Eastern European or a Larry Fine 'Tier 2' maker. But I believe the Phoenix is in the E272 cabinet. Anyway he chose a 'Tier 1' company to build it.
As an amateur-enthusiast who pokes his head inside and underneath to look at the finish etc, I would have put Steingraeber up at the top of any rankings for build along with Bechstein, Bosendorfer and Hamburg Steinway. Fantastic may have been too strong a word, I admit.
The Stuarts had the best finish I've ever seen. Never had the pleasure of examining a Fazioli. Every time I've been in Jaques Samuel they're sold out.
It would be most interesting and illuminating if any of the experienced techs here could rank the Tier 1, 2 and 3 pianos known to them in terms of build quality alone.
Andy
Hi Andy,andyaeola wrote:This is good news, am I right that the Sudbury importer chap is Colin Taylor?
Oxford is not too far away, and perhaps Harrods will again start to stock Bosies.
As to build quality, Dain could have gone a cheaper route - Eastern European or a Larry Fine 'Tier 2' maker. But I believe the Phoenix is in the E272 cabinet. Anyway he chose a 'Tier 1' company to build it.
As an amateur-enthusiast who pokes his head inside and underneath to look at the finish etc, I would have put Steingraeber up at the top of any rankings for build along with Bechstein, Bosendorfer and Hamburg Steinway. .......
The Stuarts had the best finish I've ever seen. Never had the pleasure of examining a Fazioli. Every time I've been in Jaques Samuel they're sold out.
It would be most interesting and illuminating if any of the experienced techs here could rank the Tier 1, 2 and 3 pianos known to them in terms of build quality alone.
Andy
Please understand that I have little time for some American geezer's arbitary 'tier' system.
The immaculate finish of the Faz above and below the waterline takes some beating, and it's styled like a sharp Italian suit, but every one I've ever tuned was as false as you like in the top treble, so I have little affection for them.
I reckon you can strike a match on the paint finish of yer Steingraeber's frame. The E272? That's the ugly big one with the sharp corners on it? Disgraceful. Cross that with a Collen Broadwood and I'll be even less kindly disposed to it!! The only vaguely aesthetic one is the 205, and that's only from some angles. Contrary to what I've read on the net, the only Steingraebers I've played have sounded unusually 'short', and would certainly be an acquired taste. I know of several satisfied customers however, and I just tune them and keep quiet. Come to think of it, I also know of a few satisfied owners of new nasty little Bechstein "L" grands, and I wouldn't give one of them house-room.
The Bosendorfer importer is indeed in partnership with the aforementioned Colin Taylor.
Gill, I think the only upright that Bozo's make these days is the 130. Most of them have been drooled over at some point!
PG
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Gill the Piano
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Gill, I know the feeling. In the end I just got myself a three year loan and think of it as saving in reverse, with the kids getting the benefit immedately. I was prepared to buy whatever I thought sounded the best at whatever cost, luckily I agree with Pianoguy in saying the Steinway K is not for me.
It's actually my sister that requires a decent piano now and asked me to keep an eye out. She passed her grade 8 in about 1977 while still at school, but is currently playing a four octave keyboard and complains about running out of notes.
Early last year I was quoted Ł17500 for the Bosendorefer 130, no discounts (and I'd have to wait months). Is that price still correct? It's second only to the substantially higher new Steinway K price and equally substantially more then I paid for a new Bluthner B.
Andy
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Gill the Piano
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18,950 I think is the rrp, but a second-hand Bos can be had for around 10-12K. They keep pausing the production of the 130, and recent examples date from the early 1980s onwards with short breaks in production. Prior to the '80s, most are pre-1937.
Andy! Even though it's not one of my favourites I don't think the Steinway K is a poor piano, but the price is ridiculous considering the competition. It's worth paying a bit of "Steinway Tax" on a grand (especially a B) because the residuals are so good, but that doesn't apply so much to their uprights. Since upright designs are all flawed compared to a grand (and don't start all that Steingraeber hype!) 20K-plus is silly for any upright.
I think your Bluthner B is a better all-rounder than the K. I think the Bos 130 is about as good an upright as you'll get, but both are trounced in the action department, although maybe not in ultimate sound quality by the Yamaha SU7. It'd be interesting to see if Kawai produce a Shigeru upright, which could be a worthy contender.
Andy! Even though it's not one of my favourites I don't think the Steinway K is a poor piano, but the price is ridiculous considering the competition. It's worth paying a bit of "Steinway Tax" on a grand (especially a B) because the residuals are so good, but that doesn't apply so much to their uprights. Since upright designs are all flawed compared to a grand (and don't start all that Steingraeber hype!) 20K-plus is silly for any upright.
I think your Bluthner B is a better all-rounder than the K. I think the Bos 130 is about as good an upright as you'll get, but both are trounced in the action department, although maybe not in ultimate sound quality by the Yamaha SU7. It'd be interesting to see if Kawai produce a Shigeru upright, which could be a worthy contender.