Handmade Piano

[scottjr]

I understand that Mr John of Llanelli handmakes pianos using various makes of frames. Does any member have experience of these pianos?

[tuna]

Hi, no idea how these Bentley hybrids are turning out, but found some history on the guy......
Regards....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/x-ray/allart ... very.shtml

[tuna]

Here is another one. A variation on a theme......

http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/x-ray/allart ... iano.shtml

[scottjr]

Thank you for the details of BBC Wales X-ray. I had seen these and questioned Mr John who had a reasonable explanation. I would welcome a reply from someone who has actually purchased one of these pianos or who has had good service from Mr John. Mr John has some Bentley, Welmar and Knight frames with their soundboards. He also has the actions and he builts his own case from solid wood.

[PianoGuy]

Let's hope he makes a better job of them than Bentley's did. I wonder if he's addressed the crap string spacing and the tendency for the Bentley 42 back's strings to snap without warning.

There is one on eBay at the moment and the BIN price is not cheap.

[scottjr]

I was not thinking of buying a Bentley. I wish to purchase a mellow sounding piano because I find my Seiler too loud for our lounge. My aim was to buy a Welmar (I had a Welmar A2 made in 1964 but it is now with my daughter) or even a Bechstein. I thought a custom made Welmar would suffice. Perhaps I should look for a Welmar made in the London factory.

[PianoGuy]

The 'work-in-progress' from the Whelpdale factory was evidently all purchased by a small independent firm of piano restorers. They also were granted permission by the current owners of the Welmar, Knight and Bentley trademarks to apply these names to the relevant instruments. I think they bought a large number of pianos and kits of parts to complete them. I would imagine that tracking one of these down would be your best method of finding a brand-new Welmar with something in the way of good build quality.

I have encountered one of these pianos on my travels and it seemed as good as an early 90s London Welmar at least. My suspicions were aroused by the age of the piano, a pleasant looking thing in Walnut Polyester. Welmars were discontinued in March 2003 and the build date of the last Bentley-built pianos was written in pencil on the side of the lowest key. This particular piano had a 2004 date and the word 'Phoenix' written alongside it.

I could probably do a bit of research by contacting the customer in question and asking where she bought it. As far as I remember she had travelled a fair distance to get it and had seen an advert for the range of pianos in one of those Country Life, Horsey Hound, Huntin' Shootin' Fishin' type glossies which advertise houses for sale by the likes of Knight Frank that nobody on earth can afford!

PG

[scottjr]

Thank you for your response. Mr John of LLanelli has 4 Welmar frames fitted to their soundboards, a couple of Bentleys and a couple of Knights. He also has the keys and actions. He uses Roslau strings and bass strings from Ken Russell. He says he makes the case. I met him at his workshop and he told me he trained with Alfred Knight in LLanelli where the actions were made. He sounded very genuine and offered to make up a Welmar for 3,000 pounds with a deposit up front of 1,000 pounds. There is possibly a risk in dealing with a sole owner and this is emphasised from the web pages referred to in the replies above. Also the piano cannot be tried prior to purchase. I am therefore inclined to look elsewhere. Duck Son & Pinker have a new Welmar in Bath at just over 5,000 pounds and I have been offered a new Welmar (1997 manufacture) for 4,000 pounds some 200 miles from home. I have also tried a new Bechstein which seems to be in a different league from my present piano (Seiler Favorit) or the Welmar. However the price is also in a different league. I need to sell my Seiler, purchased new in 1993 as we do not have room for two.

[PianoGuy]

As far as I am aware, Alfred Knight always worked out of Loughton, Essex, some distance from Llanelli. That Welsh town was the home of the long defunct British Piano Actions Ltd, (BPA) who once provided actions (of average quality, most technicians rate the Schwander or Langer as being better) for most British piano makers, Knight and Welmar included. Maybe Mr.John worked for BPA? Ken Russell strings or EKA strings were used on the final Whelpdale Welmars.

The BPA action featured polystrene or polypropylene jacks, whilst rivals retained wood. Your Seiler probably has a Renner action which is in a different league to the BPA !

My client certainly travelled some distance to buy her Welmar, which was offered to her at a very favourable price. The piano was apparently manufactured by Cheltenham Piano Centre who can be contacted on 01242 517635. They also voiced the piano to her taste, included a full manufacturer's warranty and transported the piano about 200 miles!

[scottjr]

Thanks for your reply. I think the risk of buying an untried piano is too great, although the action I saw Mr John fitting in his piano using a Bentley frame had an action with all wood components including the jacks. He said that he uses hammers from Renner or Bechstein. I will now try a Bechstein 118 Classic to compare with my Seiler (with Renner action) before deciding whether to go for a Bechstein at considerable cost or a 1997 London made Welmar at lower cost.

[scottjr]

Thanks for your reply.
He possibly might have said he uses the same make of hammers that Bechstein use. You can see his rebuilt Bently on ebay under "Brand new 'Bentley' piano by Phil-John"
However I am most unlikely to go for a similarly built Welmar because of risks involved.

[PianoGuy]

He said that he uses hammers from Renner or Bechstein.

Bechstein don't make hammers.

[scottjr]

Thanks for your reply. See my reply above (now out of sequence)

[scottjr]

Thank you again for your replies.
The Welmar (1997) is at Stockport and I understand has remained unsold because of the high price compared with many new pianos. The shop have offered to bring it to my home to compare with my Seiler. I am not keen to travel all those miles north.
The Shop where they had a Bechstein 118 (now sold but another one due in - All Instruments of Westbury) suggested that I employ a local Bluthner technician to work on my Seiler to regulate the action and tone the hammers to my liking. The Seiler was bought unseen and imported from Germany by The Piano Workshop in 1993. I have suggested to Seiler that because it stood in the factory from 1991 (it was a special finish model) it may not have been set up properly. They did not respond. I bought the Seiler because I played one at Williams of Gateshead side by side with a Welmar and the Seiler there sounded better. I did not buy that particular piano because I did not like the wood finish! It shows how important it is to try a piano before buying. My son, who regularly plays a Steinway grand professionally does not like the feel of the Seiler and pregfers the Welmar A2 now given to my daughter.

[scottjr]

Out of sequence again. I submitted at 09.16

[PianoGuy]

How strange that these posts end up out of sequence!

In my experience, a late 90s Welmar of the final type built in London have just as many build quality issues as one of the Bentley built 2000-on models. I've rarely found a late 90s one where the hammers didn't get caught up in the celeste rail felt. Is the '97 one you're looking at new old stock? If so, why?

Try and find a late 80s early 90s one, or check out these new ones from Cheltenham. Take your local independent tuner with you whatever you decide to do. It may cost you a few quid, but he'll know what to look for by way of iffy build! You'll know whether you like the sound and touch, so you'll have all bases covered.

Some Welmars had Abel hammers and Renner actions, so if you find one with these components it could be a bonus.

[scottjr]

Still out of sequence!

[helmllwyn]

Hi James ,
I have just posted a reply to you on another thread. Sorry to mess up your thread here. didn't see this till afterwards!
Elizabeth

[scottjr]

I can only comment on the appearance of the Welmars. I can only comment on the appearance of the Welmar and I only inspected them with the top lid open. The Welmar cases and fittings looked good and the internals (from the open top lid) also looked well made and nicely finished. I found the edges at the front of the keys rough to my fingers, one piano had cracks on the top of the white plastic key. The Welmar transfer had fallen off one piano. The feel of each piano felt nice and even and to me they appeared to be regulated well. My son said they were better than a new one he played three years ago in a shop in Bath.
The three U1s were of different ages. One was 3 years old (number in the range 6000000) purchased for a child who did not take to the piano. One was about 12 years old (4000000) prefered by my son and one was still to be worked on. I suspect I will not get a good part exchange allowance for my Seiler which is a high quality compact German piano but costs new twice the discounted price of a new Yamaha.