Some keys not sounding

Andy · Post by **Andy** » 03 Apr 2005, 19:36

We have a 3y.o. Yamaha E110N. Over the last few months I have noticed that in the second octave above middle c a cluster of notes (currently D to about F#) sometimes appear not to reset their action/mechanism so on playing the note again it doesn't sound. The keys don't stick down & when last tuned -4wks ago- tuner said he would ? oil the mechanism? This seemed to help for a bit but problem seems to be back again.
It happens randomly, not necessarily when playing quickly or quietly over those notes. Possibly more often when sustain pedal is down (but not sure of that). Do I get the tuner back to it - is it likely to be serious?

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 04 Apr 2005, 07:59

I hope the tuner did not use real oil or WD40

as they will make the problem worse over time – sounds like you have a moisture problem However, because you said it is a repetition problem it could be hammers just off the rest not allowing the jacks to return but because the tuners used I hope Protec and the problem stopped, moisture is more likely to be the problem. Is the room very damp if it is a dehumidifier should solve your problem I would call the tuner and have a chat to see what the problem is it may be that the action will have to be re centred and that can be expensive

Barrie,

Andy · Post by **Andy** » 04 Apr 2005, 08:55

Have spoken to tuner - he also said it was a moisture problem though room isn't damp at all. His suggestion to run a fan heater directed in at bottom of piano for a few hours on 2-3 days to see if it sorted it out. Does that sound reasonable to do?

Andy · Post by **Andy** » 04 Apr 2005, 10:34

Have now taken front off the piano so can try to see what's happening. To me it seems that the white plastic looking length that pushes the hammer up occasionally seems to jam slightly forward of the rounded felted curve at the bottom of the ?hammer. Sorry don't know any of the technical terms. Is this compatible with the moisture problem that you think it is?
I now remember that I mentioned this to the tuner a year ago when occasionally E & F didn't sound.But he didn't take much notice & certainly didn't mention moisture as a possible problem

Post by **Gill the Piano** » 04 Apr 2005, 17:46

Fan heaters are a bit vicious - you could try just leaving the top of the piano open to get a little air circulating in it. Or even take the front (top door) off completely. I have occasionally (when the piano has been required for a party or a lesson that evening, not allowing time for recentring) taken the action ("engine") out of the piano (not difficult - a couple of bolts usually) and played a hairdryer over the action to speed up the drying out process a bit. Don't do it IN the piano, as extreme heat directed at the piano's strings and soundboard and bridges could make it unhappy...

And keep the hairdryer moving - don't let it stay aimed at one place too long. You could have the fan heater running in the room, but not pointed straight at the piano, just to dry the air a little. Try the general drying of the room and piano first before you try taking the action out; if there are broken bridle tapes it can be a bit of a pig to put back. At college they teach us special secret anglo-saxon words to make it easier...

Good luck!

Andy · Post by **Andy** » 05 Apr 2005, 15:38

"it could be hammers just off the rest not allowing the jacks to return" - have managed to find a diagram of the parts I was trying to describe & I think that it is the jacks occasionally not returning.
Has this likely been caused by a moisture/humidity problem. i am running a dehumidifier in that room now - if it helps how long might it take to see a difference?
If the action needs re centred is it something that will deteriorate further & be a bigger problem to sort the longer it is left.
How will yamaha view a re-centring of the action in a piano of this age,in terms of any guarantee cover?
I appreciate all the help you have given about this problem.

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 05 Apr 2005, 17:15

I take it the problem was not there when you got the piano have you moved house?

It can be a problem with new pianos in some modern homes the homes are so well insulated that the moister can’t escape so the piano acts like a sponge the most common cause is drying cloths on radiators or the piano situated next to the kitchen

The dehumidifier should solver your problem you will se a result in a day or so However, do not over dry the piano take note of the humidity most UK home in the North of England are around 30% to 45% at this time of year

As to the guarantee Yamaha will look on it as self-damage

Barrie,

Andy · Post by **Andy** » 05 Apr 2005, 19:02

The problem wasn't there when we got the piano but has been there for at least a year though possibly not as noticeably as at present. It's a very old house & the room it is in has stone walls though is not noticeably damp and has a reasonable amount of heat as we have a solid wood floor in that room.
How would I know if i was overdrying it?
Presumably if the problem resolves i should keep a dehumidifier running at a low level continuously in that room. we are in Northern Ireland so it's on the damp side most of the year over here

Post by **Gill the Piano** » 05 Apr 2005, 19:23

Get a humidity meter; that will show you whether you're in the humidity band that Barrie mentioned. As soon as the action's moving freely, lose the de-humidifier. Around here, piano shops sell meters, but the piano parts firms mentioned elsewhere on the site should be able to sell you one.
I've found that new pianos don't like old houses and old pianos don't like new houses! You can get a Hydroceel unit from the piano parts firms, too; a low-wattage tubular heater (roughly comparable in expense to running a small lightbulb)which you would hang from the underside of the keyframe about a foot below the action. This keeps a gentle background heat which helps to keep the piano dry.

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 05 Apr 2005, 19:27

I have a quite a few clients who have the same problem with stone walls they all run dehumidifier all the time you can buy Hygrometers for measuring the humidity see http://www.fletcher-newman.co.uk/catalo ... /m250.html

Can’t understand why your tuner did not recommend one

Barrie,

Andy · Post by **Andy** » 05 Apr 2005, 20:10

Many thanks. Have contacted a different piano tuner. Think that some keys may be improved, tho F# still not right.This one has suggested fitting dampchaser in any case & will look at keys that are a problem next week. Let's hope dehumidifier does the trick. Wouldf I need to combine dehumidifier with dampchaser or would dampchaser be sufficient?

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 05 Apr 2005, 21:04

Dampchaser are small 7wat to 15wat heaters that fit inside the piano and are great where it is difficult to control the rooms humidity like big churches.

It is far better to control the rooms humidity with a dehumidifier than fight off the damp with a heater the other advantage of a humidity controlled environment is the piano will stay in tune longer. You have much more control with a dehumidifier than a heater

I only fit dampchasers when the client winces over the cost of a dehumidifier or the room is to big to control with a domestic dehumidifier

Barrie,

Andy · Post by **Andy** » 07 Apr 2005, 12:19

OK, have just got a hygrometer through the post today. Have been running dehumidifire for 2 days . Humidity in the room at the moment seems to be reading as around 47%ish. F# & D are still intermittently not sounding. How long will it take the piano to adjust to a lower humidity.
Is it possible the tuner may say that just the few keys that are still giving problems might need the action recentred.

Post by **Gill the Piano** » 07 Apr 2005, 17:00

Yes, you can get a few keys recentred - you don't need to get the lot done!
I earlier said 'Hydroceel' unit - I should have said Damppchaser..sorry!

A440 · Post by **A440** » 04 Jul 2005, 01:30

If I had been tuning your piano and foung some sluggish jacks I would use a little proteck and hold the jack with some stout tweesers and gently massaged it round to work the fluid in. I might also have given the spiral jack spring a tweek or replaced it if need be.(this spring sits at the toe of the jack and is responsible for pushing the jack into place).
I probably wouldn't even mention I had done this to the customer. And it would solve your minor problem.
You say it is not damp in the room, I guess the problem is slight and this would work long-term.
If you need to recenter, it's no big deal, but get a section done rather than just individuals.
If the stone wall is giving off damp, can you site the piano elsewhere? This would be preferable to a lifetime of dehumidifiers.

pianolad23 · Post by **pianolad23** » 04 Jul 2005, 19:45

Andy - I have the same problem on my new yamaha C110A it can be so frustrating! got the shops tuner coming to look at it next week! also C D and D# an octave below middle C are out of tone with the rest of the piano making like a tubby sound! god knows what this can be, the shop said they will sort it out, i dont seem to have much luck with piano's!

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Some keys not sounding

Some keys not sounding

Sluggish jacks