Schiedmayer & Soehne

[Amefra]

hi

Usual question I'm afraid.

We inherited a Schiedmayer & Soehne upright piano recently. Looks art deco to me; completely plain front etc.

Trying to find out some history behind it, so took it apart and found "1596" stamped onto one of the struts inside. Looking online, this is nothing like the serial numbers of any SuS piano. So assumed a digit had just worn away.

Anyway, we moved it over the weekend to put a picture up, and in pencil on the back is "L&P 9/1/14 #1596"

So the number corresponds with the number stamped inside. The date seems a little old for something art deco (or what I'd classify as art deco!).

The number however is still completely different to any serial numbers.

So I'm stumped. Do I take the date as correct, or is something wrong somewhere...

thanks very much

[Bill Kibby]

The first thing you need to understand is that dating pianos by numbers is not always simple, and most pianos have several numbers inside. In terms of names, as I explain at
http://www.pianohistory.info/numbers.html
there were ELEVEN different Schiedmayer firms.

These photos show serial numbers from the early 1900s, inside the ends of Schiedmayer pianos. One has entirely different numbers at each end

A number preceded by letters such as L&P suggests a retailer's stock number, and the date appears to be 1914, but we don't know if it was new then.

Are you able to post photos of the whole piano here, or email them for me to post?

[Amefra]

it was the sole number I could find inside; there didn't appear to be anything else stamped anywhere unfortunately.

I'll try and take some photos tonight; having had a quick look around I've not seen anything else on line like it.

[Amefra]

sorry - forgot to say thanks!

[Bill Kibby]

You are so keen that you read my post before I had finished it, so have another look.

[Bill Kibby]

Just a thought, you say the name is Schiedmayer & Soehne, but I wondered if "L&P" could actually be J&P - indicating the other Schiedmayer firm?

[Amefra]

it's not inconceivable as it's copper plate writing, but the maker's mark on the front of the piano is definitely the same as this http://www.german-pianos.net/database/d ... 600_03.jpg and the internal logo is the same as this http://www.piano-reisberg.de/pics/56913 ... 370942.jpg

thanks

[Bill Kibby]

It seems that the family split into 2 firms, but your piano is clearly not by J.& P.Schiedmayer.

By 1888, J.& P.Schiedmayer had become "Schiedmayer Pianofortefabrik", but Schiedmayer & Soehne still existed separately, although I understand that the two firms joined together again later.

In 1969, Schiedmayer & Son took over ownership of J.& P.Schiedmayer.

[Amefra]

Hi Bill

Got some photos if they'll help - even more intrigued now to be honest...

thinking about it - the fact the pencil on the back says No 1596 surely implies it's a British mark and not the original German?

Still can't find a serial number inside though...


many thanks again

[Bill Kibby]

If you have a look near the bottom of my page at
http://www.pianohistory.info/edwardian.html

you will see examples of pianos that look almost identical. The article explains that they have been modernised, so the way the piano looks on the outside leaves us virtually no clues to what it looked like originally.

If you want to search inside the piano for clues, have a look at
http://www.pianohistory.info/datemarks.html

[Amefra]

Gosh yes.

Intriguing. Never knew it could be done. No wonder I can't find a serial number - it's presumably in the bit they might have cut off to make it smaller...

it would appear to still be a SuS though, and I'm guessing it's not too bad a customisation as the Bottom board still fits where it's supposed to. But even so - makes you wonder how much is original, and how much isn't.

thanks for your time

[Bill Kibby]

Modernisation as usually just superficial, the piano inside is still a Schiedmayer. What would be interesting is its age, and some idea why the number is so low.

You could ask your tuner to look for the action makers' name and number.

I still can't work out what L&P refers to, is the piano in Britain?

[Amefra]

It is based in the south of england.

I may have found - on the inner side wall - the remnants of the serial number. Could be where the shoulders have been shortened slightly, as it looks like bottoms of a number of digits. Can't tell which digits they are, but they're not on the other side wall.


I'll see if i can take it apart a bit more to find any more details though. As to the L&P, could be something to do with the importers. Odd that the number corresponds to the imprinted number inside. I'm guessing the SuS on lid of the keyboard and on the mechanism is original, and not put on to 'improve' it when it was modernised?

[Amefra]

here's that potential cut off serial number

[Bill Kibby]

That's it, irritating the way they hacked the shoulders off it! I probably have more British lists than anyone else, but haven't found an L&P yet, so I thought it might be abroad. My best guess is a retailer, but it could be an importer.

If you find 3 digit-numbers imprinted in any removable parts of the case, these would be the last 3 digits of the real number.

[Amefra]

I'll have a look around, but surely any removable parts of the case won't be original, as they'll have been replaced when the piano was streamlined?

many thanks again

[Bill Kibby]

These modernisation projects tried to recycle parts that could be adapted and re-used, for example the fall (keyboard lid) is original, and may have markings on the edges.

At each end of the keyboard, there is a key-block which may be marked, if you can find out how to get it out.

Unfortunately, these marks tend to only be the last 3 digits, so if we don't have any long numbers, they may not help.

With German pianos, it is usually the action makers' name and number that is most helpful.

[Amefra]

intriguingly - again! - putting " 'suttons sole agents' piano " into google brings back a couple of Australian archived newspapers (1897, 1901). http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/88973593 http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/10557380

then putting in Suttons and Lindahl (mentioned in one of the adverts...) brings back loads. So - made in Germany, then moved to Australia, then back again. Busy, busy.

[Amefra]

or even http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/7242022 .

[Colin Nicholson]

where is says "sole agents" - if the keyslip rail is original, it might have the serial number pencilled underneath on the bare wood.
Remove front panel, remove fall board then pull off rail (if held with studs) or un-screw.
Several German pianos I've restored (inc. a recent one) have the serial number here.
Worth a try.

[Harmoniumnet]

Hi Bill
many thanks again

First of all this is the first time I have enterd this forum. I don't have a piano, and I don't play a piano.
My hobby is writing the Schiedmayer Biography. It have given the book the titel: Schiedmayer Keybord Instruments From manual art to Industrie, The Schiedmayer Heritage.
This also is an indicator that I focus on Schiedmayer alone. All three companies bearing the name Schiedmayer.

Last week I realized that I have to many pages, so I am now working to make the text more compact.

About the instrument at hand in this message.

First of all looking to the images, it shows there is a remodelled instrument, with the name Schiedmayer Soehne on the outside, but one of the images clearly shows the J. & P. Schiedmayer (from 1870 renamed to Schiedmayer Pianofortefabrik.)

The number 1596 suggest an J. & P. serialnumber, dated ca. 1868

Given the fact that recently we found counterfeit "Schiedmayer & Söhne" with serialnumbers ca. 1000 - range.
These are FALSE. Made in in China.

Schiedmayer instruments will ALWAYS written as Soehne, and NOT Söhne.

[Harmoniumnet]

intriguingly - again! - putting " 'suttons sole agents' piano " into google brings back a couple of Australian archived newspapers (1897, 1901). http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/88973593 http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/10557380

then putting in Suttons and Lindahl (mentioned in one of the adverts...) brings back loads. So - made in Germany, then moved to Australia, then back again. Busy, busy.

The Zeitschrift für Instrumentbau year 1897 will show quite a number of articles on the 'hype' in that era, that in Australia there was e pest of false pianos with fake labels . Most of them were built in the Berlin area

[Bill Kibby]

The word "counterfeit" is not necessarily suitable here, can you be sure they didn't buy the rights to the name?


Also, many pianos made for export have the lettering changed to suit the country they are going to, in the same way that many people on the internet do not type the accents.

I have over thirty thousand piano names on file, many of them are meaningless.

[Harmoniumnet]

The word "counterfeit" is not necessarily suitable here, can you be sure they didn't buy the rights to the name?


Also, many pianos made for export have the lettering changed to suit the country they are going to, in the same way that many people on the internet do not type the accents.

I have over thirty thousand piano names on file, many of them are meaningless.

The company name "Schiedmayer & Soehne" is still a registered name. No one has purchased that name, because Schiedmayer do not sell the name, and has never sold the name.

I communicate on a weekly basis with the Schiedmayers, as I mentioned: I am writing the biography of the Family and the history of the instruments an companies.

[Bill Kibby]

I look forward to a day when we can read about the Schiedmayer firms with some degree of confidence that what is written there is true, something which has certainly not been true in the past.

Do email me if I can help with the piano aspects.

Good luck with your writing. Serial numbers are never simple, #1596 is nowhere near as early as 1868. and you might like to read my page at
http://www.pianohistory.info/numbers.html

[vernon]

Just an aside---
We're doing a Bechstein and a Ibach (OLD ones )and they both have the correct serial number in pencil under the nameboard/keyslip. viz Colin Nicholsons post)

As an apprentice we used to "modernise" pianos in a sweat shop round the corner after work in Kentish Town.. The fall(lid over the keys )will most probably be original as will the bottom door. The top door may be too but covered with a sheet of veneered ply. Look inside and you may find the original panelled frame has been utilised.
The columns(legs)legs are replacements

[vernon]

The bottom door IS original

[Bill Kibby]

In terms of names, there were ELEVEN different Schiedmayer firms, so before you apply any published information such as serial numbers to your piano, it is vital to check inside and outside for the full name of the company that made it. Sadly, various sources (especially on the internet) see the name "Schiedmayer" and immediately jump to the conclusion that it is some particular firm, without checking first.

JOHANN CRISTOFF SCHIEDMAYER made clavichords in the eighteenth century.

BALTHASAR SCHIEDMAYER, also a clavichord maker, produced his first piano in 1735. He had 3 sons.

JOHANN DAVID SCHIEDMAYER succeeded him, and was succeeded by Johan Lorenz Schiedmayer.

ADAM SCHIEDMAYER made pianos in his own right.

DAVID SCHIEDMAYER did the same.

DIEUDONNE & SCHIEDMAYER had a brief partnership from 1809 to 1825, involving Johann Lorenz Schiedmayer.

J.L.SCHIEDMAYER began under his own name.

SCHIEDMAYER & SOEHNE became one of the two main Schiedmayer firms in Stuttgart, when J.L. was joined by his sons Adolf & Hermann. Perhaps 1845?

J.& P. SCHIEDMAYER was founded in 1853 by Johann's younger sons, Julius & Paul, and became the other main firm.

SCHIEDMAYER PIANOFORTE FABRIK was a later name for the company fornerly known as J.& P. Schiedmayer, perhaps from 1870?

ERWIN MULLER-SCHIEDMAYER was established at Wurburg in 1874.