Organs.

dave brum · Post by **dave brum** » 16 Feb 2014, 11:12

So I gather the term 'double manual' refers to consoles that have two rows of keys. But is the top keyboard supposed to be a leftwards extension of the bottom one (i.e the leftmost note of the top keyboard the lowest note whereas the rightmost on the bottom the highest one), or a rightwards extension of the bottom one, or exactly how do these things work?? I'm very curious.

I used to go to services at my local 'queen's church' (where my favourite piano teacher is the Director of Music and regular Sunday organist) and although I was quite interested in the workings of the instrument, I never had a chance to get a good look at the console because she always locked it straight away after the service (probably because she knew I was interested in it - not because I wanted to tinker around with it but because I was interested in how the thing worked).

You'll know the answer to this Gillian.....maybe both rows are at the same pitch but different stops can work on each keyboard so it can be possible to play one row with different tones but the other with a completely different set of tones or none at all.

Post by **Feg** » 16 Feb 2014, 11:35

My understanding is that each keyboard works a different rank of pipes as does the pedal board.

Therefore, both keyboards have the same compass.

Post by **Gill the Piano** » 16 Feb 2014, 14:33

Don't call me G*****n or I shan't reply.
One manual is usually the Great, and the other is the Swell. Not because some yank thinks it's nice but because it responds to the loud/soft pedal which is called the swell. So you make the sound of that manual louder by opening the swell (often a louvred effort which opens to let the racket out).However if you use the coupler 'swell to great' then it will affect the great manual as well. That's about all I know as I ain't a proper organist, just a pianist who couldn't move fast enough. Both manuals are, as Feg says, the same compass.

dave brum · Post by **dave brum** » 16 Feb 2014, 15:26

I'll look out for the terms 'great' and 'swell' if I ever look round an old church or chapel and I might want to have a gander at the organ. Thanks for that. I wouldn't be averse to some some supervised organ tampering.

The one at my local C of E, according to one of the wardens, was installed as a 'people's organ' meaning that it belongs to the people of the parish but under the custody of the church. However, whilst the current Director of Music is in place, it will never ever belong to this person in the parish!

Rather call you G****** than Gertrude.

Post by **Gill the Piano** » 17 Feb 2014, 16:10

Great is the bottom manual, usually - in my limited experience, that is.

gizzy · Post by **gizzy** » 17 Feb 2014, 23:03

I thought I'd posted my reply to this but it got lost.

My dad's organ in St John's Glastonbury had four manuals - like the mightly wurtle-izer. He fell downstairs in the middle of the night and broke his arm, and after a week off in hospitalo, he accompanied services for a week or two with one hand and two feet.

The manuals were (are), from top to bottom: solo, swell, great, choir. Extra manual are usually for quick changes of "orchestration"

dave brum · Post by **dave brum** » 18 Feb 2014, 16:23

I'd still like to see one working before I pop orf, and I mean in reality not on Youtube. I did see an American organist on YT demonstrating how the stops worked, and the swell box and so on. She was using a quadruple manual, but I still don't know if they are actually labelled up or are we to assume the manual sections are in the same place on every organ in the world? And what about the stops, which ones are for the great and which for the footboard??

I wish I could just go into my local branch of the UK Government church for the service and take a good look without someone either thinking I'm some sort of geek (which I suppose I am) or assessing how much money the pipes might sell for once they're melted down. Will never happen in my local church though, that's a fact.

Pity my wife's not interested in these instruments as I could spend hours gazing at the console in Worcester Cathedral trying to work out what controls what (again, like a geek).

Post by **Gill the Piano** » 18 Feb 2014, 20:31

Look in your music library for an organ tutor book; that tells you the basic what-belongs-to-which-manual stuff.

dave brum · Post by **dave brum** » 18 Feb 2014, 20:44

That's an idea. There's a few of them in the LoB I've seen.

dave brum · Post by **dave brum** » 01 Mar 2014, 09:23

Boho Rhapsody, played by Helen the Brummie emo church organ 'Queen':

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIsfK7K4uxs

Post by **Gill the Piano** » 02 Mar 2014, 17:13

Eric bought me a splendid book yesterday; The Chorister's Pocket Book. It explains the organ quite well; "If there are 2 manuals the lowest is the GREAT ORGAN and the upper the SWELL ORGAN; with 3 manuals the lowest is the CHOIR ORGAN; and with 4 the top one is the SOLO ORGAN. Some parts of the organ, always the swell and often the solo and choir, are enclosed in a big box with shutters that can be opened by a SWELL PEDAL; this enables the sound to swell out or die away."
Mind you, it also advises that the choirboy (no girls, natch) should "see...that you are neatly dressed and that your hair is tidy." I may submit my resignation then...

dave brum · Post by **dave brum** » 02 Mar 2014, 17:35

A certain local music teacher whom I have been mentioning quite oft in PM's to you Gill is always dressed up to the standard required by the Archbishop of Canterbury every Sunday whether she's directing the choir or playing the organ. You can see her plainly on the website of the church where she is Director of Music. Whereas another certain local music teacher has a penchant for wearing tight body-shaped jeans or leggings beneath her choral robes whilst she's playing the organ in her particular church, slap bang in the middle of a sink estate.

You really do not need to buy The Daily Sun, all the gossip is here

dave brum · Post by **dave brum** » 02 Mar 2014, 20:27

Here's another Organ:

http://www.musicteachers.co.uk/teacher/ ... c89cfdc1bb

If she ever got married to someone called Willis, she could be Georgia Willis-Organ??

dave brum · Post by **dave brum** » 02 Mar 2014, 21:49

Here's a pool of interestment:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNgwBn0cWds

Anyone got an organ I can try this out on???

Post by **Gill the Piano** » 03 Mar 2014, 19:53

dave brum wrote:Here's a pool of interestment:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNgwBn0cWds

Anyone got an organ I can try this out on???

Yep, access to three with pedalboards. No, four. No, five!

dave brum · Post by **dave brum** » 03 Mar 2014, 20:08

But not in your home, surely. I was even trying a scale of C with my feet, heel-toe on a number 11 bus!

Post by **Gill the Piano** » 04 Mar 2014, 17:33

No, not in my VERY small and VERY full cottage, you wazzock.

But if the churches are open I know where the ignition keys are!

dave brum · Post by **dave brum** » 04 Mar 2014, 17:56

But I didn't think you lived in a very small cottage. I assumed you'd live in a four bedroomed house crammed full of musical instruments, piles of sheet music and tuning tools/empty wine glasses with a slight red tinge to them scattered all around the rooms.

Post by **Gill the Piano** » 05 Mar 2014, 18:47

You got everything else right apart from the size of the cottage...

dave brum · Post by **dave brum** » 05 Mar 2014, 19:26

You've probably got a few things in there the Bate Collection might want.....

Post by **Gill the Piano** » 05 Mar 2014, 19:43

Probably got a few things the Tropical Diseases mob might want too...

dave brum · Post by **dave brum** » 05 Mar 2014, 19:49

...or maybe 'Kraftwerk' could strip down and rebuild???

dave brum · Post by **dave brum** » 06 Mar 2014, 13:13

I managed to take a look at Helen Ingram, who I've mentioned on this page before (she's the Brummie emo organist) in HD on my (or should I say my wife's) television set and I noticed that the organ she was playing (at St.Chads queen's church, Rubery, Worcs) was in fact a Nicholson organ. I had never heard of them so I googled them:

http://www.nicholsonorgans.co.uk/

They are infact based in Malvern and their organs and/or restoration projects are to be found all over the world, but most notably here in England. Their website is very big and so I shall spend a lovely afternoon reading up on them, their factory and their projects, past and present (providing my wife has no other plans....)

They even have some Youtube vids to watch:

http://www.youtube.com/user/nicholsonorgans.

Does anyone remember on Flog It a few years ago there was a tour of the Willis factory in Liverpool and it showed how pipes were cast, cut and finally voiced???

Post by **Gill the Piano** » 06 Mar 2014, 19:24

Yes, I saw that Flog It (well to be honest, I've probably seen 'em all) and it was really interesting. Usually I hate those bits and want them to get back to the antiques, but not that day.

dave brum · Post by **dave brum** » 06 Mar 2014, 20:51

My wife did indeed have other ideas...

It's good to know that even after the last piano factory in England closed a while ago, that we still manufacture these kings of instruments. Would love to go on a tour of the Willis factory, and indeed the Nicholson one.

dave brum · Post by **dave brum** » 13 Sep 2014, 15:05

I took some lovely photos of the restored Edwardian organ at St Nicolas church Kings Norton which I shall post once I've uploaded them.

dave brum · Post by **dave brum** » 13 Sep 2014, 17:41

dave brum · Post by **dave brum** » 26 Mar 2015, 22:27

I went into the parish church in Droitwich, Worcs yesterday and I saw an organ not that dissimilar to the very last organ that I played in Bucks last August - wherever that was, I forget...was it Fingest??

dave brum · Post by **dave brum** » 20 Apr 2015, 20:17

This is the console of the organ that Mabel Mucklethwaite plays every Sunday where she is Director of Music. It's quite a nice one and it's located up a flight of stairs. When she broke her ankle last summer she had to be carried up to play. By the celestial band, one would gather.

Fancy having a go on there Gill? Would be a cracking little geek's hideyhole that's warmed by the rising hot air of the congregations' voices and body heat - so no need for a fan heater!

Post by **Gill the Piano** » 21 Apr 2015, 16:58

Looks nice; bewildering for a non organist like me though. I like the idea of a hidey hole like the one my cathedral organist friend lost when they placed the console down in the main body of the cathedral. He's lost his armchair and kettle privileges and is still mourning their loss.

dave brum · Post by **dave brum** » 21 Apr 2015, 18:57

You should see the 'organ room' in Worcester Cathedral. It is self contained, with television cameras so the organist knows when to begin playing, telephones, desks, even tea and food making facilities. I took a sneaky peek!

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 28 Apr 2015, 22:03

if you want to understand Organs. there is an Organ day in Cambridge organised by ISOB and IMIT .

Cambridge Meeting will be on 20th June 10am St. Mary the
Great and about 1.30pn at Jesus College

St. Mary the Great (2 Organs) at 10.00: then Lunch in Michael House
Restaurant at own expense followed by a 15 minute walk to Jesus College
(3 organs) at 1.30: pm organist will be George De-Voil.

its open to none members the one I went to 2 years ago was very good you get to go inside the organ
contact www.imit.org.uk

Barrie

dave brum · Post by **dave brum** » 28 Sep 2016, 20:56

The organ at my church makes one heck of a hullabaloo when the blowers are on. I went up there to pass on a pile of books to the organist before the service last Sunday and it sounded like a cross between a snoring wart hog and a trump (not Donald!)

It must be quite offputting to say the least!!! Mind you, one thing Tracey needs is some storage for all her music and choir paraphernalia. All round and about the organ, on and under the benches and even on the console is packed to the rafters with all this unsightly farage that just looks such a mess (she's got an even bigger farage mountain in her car and at her house!)

The handbells and foam cushioning are buried within!!

Post by **Gill the Piano** » 29 Sep 2016, 17:20

Is it in an organ loft? If it's in the main body of the church it's harder to be untidy. All the ones I play are out in plain sight, regrettably...no covert perusal of the parish mag possible!

dave brum · Post by **dave brum** » 29 Sep 2016, 17:38

Not in a loft. Take a look up this thread in a post dated 13.09.14 and you'll some of my photos of the organ. A lot of the music is hidden away in the pews, but since that photo was taken, the clutter has increased almost threefold. I might ask Trace if she wants some boxes from work to bung it all in.

Post by **Gill the Piano** » 29 Sep 2016, 19:41

She should ask the church for some shelves/bookcases or something.

dave brum · Post by **dave brum** » 29 Sep 2016, 20:38

Some of those chests of drawers (NOT draws - ooh missus!!) especially for sheet music storage would be good. I think the music shops sell them, in Oxfam Books and Music shops in some places they have them there to keep their sheet music stock in.

Post by **Gill the Piano** » 29 Sep 2016, 21:29

Even some box files or files with bits cut out of them would be good.

dave brum · Post by **dave brum** » 29 Sep 2016, 21:53

She's going to have to do something, or the choir won't have any room to sit in their stalls. Wedding music, funeral music, baroque studies, Tracey has it all and she'll play it...she plays at 98 services out of 100 there and her service is dedicated and loyal, as well as being facilities manager in church, one of the secrertaries in the parish office AND if that wasn't enough, a full time job also!!!

She should be made a Dame!!!

One of the readers is also a piano player, I think he should have a go on the organ as well occasionally. Tracey told me he has but I've never seen him.

We occasionally have this 'rover' to play for us....and she is BRILLIANT!!!

https://twitter.com/silentdiapason

Post by **Gill the Piano** » 30 Sep 2016, 20:37

I wish pianists wouldn't be so scared of the organ; it'd make finding accompanists for services so much easier and I wouldn't be doing eight gigs over Christmas. As you know, organ playing's not as hard as people think it is!

dave brum · Post by **dave brum** » 30 Sep 2016, 20:55

Same musical family, same note range, same keys in the same places. So what REALLY is there to be afraid of if you already play the piano??

dave brum · Post by **dave brum** » 30 Sep 2016, 21:09

Gill the Piano wrote: As you know, organ playing's not as hard as people think it is!

I wouldn't know at all, in truth

Post by **Gill the Piano** » 30 Sep 2016, 21:21

Of COURSE you do.

dave brum · Post by **dave brum** » 01 Oct 2016, 15:01

Sorry, forgotten. Been such a long time. My interest in organs now is purely technical and in some aspects, ecclesiastical.

Post by **Gill the Piano** » 01 Oct 2016, 16:36

Does Tracey let you have a good old Cwm Rhondda/Hydrofoil now and then?

dave brum · Post by **dave brum** » 01 Oct 2016, 16:40

Gill the Piano wrote:Does Tracey let you have a good old Cwm Rhondda/Hydrofoil now and then?

I've not really asked her. I've not given it a thought to be honest, Gill.

Post by **Gill the Piano** » 01 Oct 2016, 18:32

Go on, give it a go!

dave brum · Post by **dave brum** » 01 Oct 2016, 18:38

I don't really want to. I'm not interested in PLAYING them any more. Just interested in pianos and organs - and of course pianists and organists!

Post by **Gill the Piano** » 01 Oct 2016, 20:58

Well it's a waste if you don't have another go - you were good!

dave brum · Post by **dave brum** » 01 Oct 2016, 21:21

Gill the Piano wrote:Well it's a waste if you don't have another go - you were good!

I gave it a go, never really enjoyed it, but kept going and enjoyed it less and less and became more anxious and more neurotic about it. Giving up was the best thing I've ever done - that's why I left this page in April 2015, I'm much, much happier these days as a mere listener to piano music and an admirer of other pianists and organists.

I did see a new teacher as recently as last week, but as sight reading was involved, and as soon as I had to do that, I just thought 'maybe I should try and MAKE myself enjoy it (these pieces were old g1 pieces). But I couldn't.

People over on the other forum have been talking with me about carrying on when I was on the verge of quitting with my new teacher, but yet again their moderation have booted me off there, and get this they have even used a two way cookie to bar me from even seeing the comments that their forum users, some of whom are piano teachers and adult learners have left for me out of the kindness of their own hearts, because they wanted me to carry on. They (the ABRSM moderation) have not even been reasonable enough to send me an email to tell me WHY my account has been suspended. I shall not hesitate to say (and I shall put it into bold type) the moderator of the ABRSM forum needs to be removed from the United Kingdom and given a one way ticket to North Korea.

But now, what is the point of carrying on? I am not one of nature's little pianists. If I was, I surely wouldn't have had all this heartache and persistent adversity, coupled with near zero enjoyment.

The poster piano4solihull made this comment on this page four years ago...and she is absolutely right. I should have listened to her then:

I seemingly had three messages on twitter from Dave Brum (well I assume it was him

) saying how much he hated playing the piano and how it made him ill. He then dissapeared!
I then read another post from him saying he had failed grade 3 after having a panic attack - unless its a different person - but all the threads have been written the same, almost as if he needs to stop playing if it makes him ill, I always tell my adults not to take exams if it is going to make them stressed/ill. I encourage them all to go through the process of learning scales and sightreading to improve their reading not for exams.
Playing the piano should be fun and relaxed and if it is not, then do something you do enjoy

I've enjoyed playing handbells in 12 months much more that I've enjoyed pianos in ten years. That is a fact.