Help with piano pedals

[mcmcleod]

I have acquired a Collard & Collard Baby Grand however, the pedals are sticking up and to get them at the right angle seems impossible. My piano technician has taken them away to see if he can fix tham and even he cannot get them straight. Any advice welcome.

[Barrie Heaton]

I have acquired a Collard & Collard Baby Grand however, the pedals are sticking up and to get them at the right angle seems impossible. My piano technician has taken them away to see if he can fix tham and even he cannot get them straight. Any advice welcome.

Had this before its when removal men don't know what they are doing and forget to take off the lyre before the front legs . had one grand the pedals looked like Aladin shoes they were that turned up. The tuner will have to take them off heat them up and bend them back Or fit a new set

Barrie

[Colin Nicholson]

Obviously no one here will know exactly what is causing this, but as a suggestion, remove the top lid completely, remove the pedal lyre & front left leg - one person holding the piano up, one to remove the leg (unless you have a grand raising axle stand) - then put the piano on its side onto blankets etc.... then much easier to work on & check everything.... mechanism/ lift rods/ lyre stays/ bolt or screw fittings etc

If your tuner is not up to the job, take the rods to an iron mongers.

[athomik]

, remove the pedal lyre & front left leg - one person holding the piano up, one to remove the leg (unless you have a grand raising axle stand) - then put the piano on its side onto blankets etc.... then much easier to work on & check everything.... mechanism/ lift rods/ lyre stays/ bolt or screw fittings etc.

I have found that pedal function can be affected by transport and installation of the pedal lyre (esp. on things like the Yamaha Avant Grand and Disklaviers). When fixing pedal problems, I have always made sure the the piano is in it's final location and fully assembled. Every time you move a piano, especially if it involves turning a grand on it's side, you can upset the geometry of the components, which will affect how the pedals work. Obvious problems can be spotted with a grand on it's side, but the final test always has to be with the piano fully assembled and in it's intended location (even dodgy laminate floors can warp a piano to some degree).

[Colin Nicholson]

Fully agree with you there as pedals & dampers etc rely on mostly gravity & weight, aswell as a spring assisting the pedal rocker.... but the test "on its side" may give you a bird's eye view of the alignment problems instead of grovelling around on the floor suspending the lyre into place etc.... once the problem is found, then back on its feet again for the final test. I have also found many old grands with buckled and bent lyre screws (depending on the design) - some are butterfly screws, others are bolts that screw into a metal thread. Depending on the size of the grand (and weight) - if the piano has come crashing down on the lyre, this can cause alot of damage to the internal structure of the threads and surrounding blocks of wood.... especially if the 'female' threads are wooden and not metal. However you might be lucky on this occasion. Use a torch aswell to check the internal threads - and any cracks in the wood.

A few years ago, what I thought was a simple job turned out to be a mammoth task, and a lyre needed complete new rods, threads, bolts and the backs of the pedals bent aswell.... so open up the lyre box & check there aswell. Not a straight forward job.

[athomik]

All of my service calls were just me and myself. They usually involved a small box, a small cushion or a stiff neck.

[vernon]

commonest problem is that the pedal rods have been juxtaposed. Try swapping them over. I've never had much problem with pedals.

[Colin Nicholson]

Another common thing is that many first time members just want a "quick fix" answer - then never to be heard of again. Nearly a week on.... would be nice if we found out what was the cause - and we can all learn from it.... usually 'human error' in some cases like you say Vernon. Yes, I have noted on a few occasions the lift rods are set at different heights.... usually dont have to be removed from the lyre, but they do inevitably drop out during transport.

[mcmcleod]

Many thanks to everyone who has responded and for all the advice whcih has been posted in my absence.
An update is the technician says he cannot "bend" the pedals to their correct place as they are not solid brass and may well break. He took the lyre away and worked on it but still have the problem with the pedals sticking up. The pedals are working fine but at this awful angle. Have had work done on the piano and it has been tuned and so I am very reluctant to put it on its side to look. I am not very knowledgeable about this sort of thing and it may be me just being overcautious, I am concerned it may cause more problems esp. after all that has been done. I will get under the piano and look with a torch and follow through with the other suggestions.

[Barrie Heaton]

Many thanks to everyone who has responded and for all the advice whcih has been posted in my absence.
An update is the technician says he cannot "bend" the pedals to their correct place as they are not solid brass and may well break. He took the lyre away and worked on it but still have the problem with the pedals sticking up. The pedals are working fine but at this awful angle. Have had work done on the piano and it has been tuned and so I am very reluctant to put it on its side to look. I am not very knowledgeable about this sort of thing and it may be me just being overcautious, I am concerned it may cause more problems esp. after all that has been done. I will get under the piano and look with a torch and follow through with the other suggestions.

An image would be useful

Barrie

[Colin Nicholson]

It sounds like the pedals have shunted at the back or the pins have bent. Most pedals are not solid brass, the part you see is just a brass cap, and further back into the pedal box, the covers are rivetted to cast iron bars, with a pin running central.
The lyre box is quite easy to separate with a few screws.

If you need new pedal casts, let us know - my colleague can make them to pattern and re-rivet the caps back on & make new steel pins.... but photos would be helpful. Whoever does this job though would need the whole lyre assembly/ pedals/ rods - the lot if you decide to have the job done - then assembled to see it working, then post the whole thing back to you.

[mcmcleod]

Thank you - I will take photos today and add.

[Colin Nicholson]

No problem. Dont forget, we need to see photos of the actual inner workings of the pedals - not just a photo taken from the outside with the pedals sticking up - this wont tell us anything.

Simply turn the lyre upside down, and take out all the screws. If you can, lift out the pedals and take some photos of the cast bars/ left & right pins (aerial view + side view) .... and if you see anything bent or warped (say, more than the other pedal) - please show it on the photo. Depending on the design, many pedals are located into wooden dowels, each dowel having a bushed hole.... the dowels recessed into the lyre box. Just lift gently, and the pedals should come out with the dowels still attached. Anything broken, bent etc.... photos!

If possible, use a digital camera (and flash if needed). If your photos are unclear, too dark (usually taken by camera phones/ iPods) - we cant help.

Hope that helps

[vernon]

if the pedals work on flush dowels(viz bechstein) mark each dowel with it's orientation before removal otherwise the finished job may be worse than when you started. PLEASE get a technician to do it.

[Johnkie]

Could this not merely be a case where the removers have caught the pedals whilst moving and bent them .... normally upwards ? If so surely it's easy enough to staighten them out ... if not possible when cold,then heat them to "cherry red" before bending them back. I've done this many times, and never snapped one yet (touch wood).