Hi, I'm looking for a piano and have at least Ł1000 to spend (thanks to my old folks). However, I know Ł1000 wouldn't go too far (possibly will end up with a second-hand old Bentley). But with a new bungalow to finance, we have to make a few sacrifices (eg rescuing a sofa from the tip) if I'm going to push my budget to Ł2000.
I've never learnt piano before, but can play accordin a bit. Owning a piano is my childhood dream, and would really like to get a decent one.
Any advice would be appreciated.
Ł1000 or Ł2000, much difference?
Moderators: Feg, Gill the Piano, Melodytune
A world of difference!
Forget that used Bentley and choose from a new:
Chinese Yamaha C110 or Indonesian C109 (not quite as good IMO in spite of the 100% Yamaha build)
Many of the little Pearl River offerings
Ditto the lovely little inexpensive Yantai Perzinas. (look for the Carl Ebel, Eavestaff, Gehr. Steinberg and Sangler brands amongst others)
a Yantai Longfeng (Kingsburg etc)
Or a very good totally mint second hand:
Danemann
smaller Welmar
Yamaha C108
Eterna
Fazer
Hellas
all of which beat the Bentley into a bloody pulp and should be comfortably within your budget.
You could even move up a class and afford an older 121cm Jap import from the likes of:
Apollo
Toyo
Atlas
Gold Star
although more care is needed to choose a good example.
You can't quite afford an imported Yamaha U1 or U3 unless it's a real woofer, so concentrate on the above.
Spend that extra 1k!
Forget that used Bentley and choose from a new:
Chinese Yamaha C110 or Indonesian C109 (not quite as good IMO in spite of the 100% Yamaha build)
Many of the little Pearl River offerings
Ditto the lovely little inexpensive Yantai Perzinas. (look for the Carl Ebel, Eavestaff, Gehr. Steinberg and Sangler brands amongst others)
a Yantai Longfeng (Kingsburg etc)
Or a very good totally mint second hand:
Danemann
smaller Welmar
Yamaha C108
Eterna
Fazer
Hellas
all of which beat the Bentley into a bloody pulp and should be comfortably within your budget.
You could even move up a class and afford an older 121cm Jap import from the likes of:
Apollo
Toyo
Atlas
Gold Star
although more care is needed to choose a good example.
You can't quite afford an imported Yamaha U1 or U3 unless it's a real woofer, so concentrate on the above.
Spend that extra 1k!
Yes.
The original importer has ceased trading. I am not sure if there is a current importer or if the ones left on sale are simply old stock, so that could have a bearing on aftercare and residuals.
Some have garish case designs in a poor imitation of the worst German excesses, the simpler designs are reasonably elegant.
Pleasant enough pianos though, the bigger ones especially. There's better value around though!
The original importer has ceased trading. I am not sure if there is a current importer or if the ones left on sale are simply old stock, so that could have a bearing on aftercare and residuals.
Some have garish case designs in a poor imitation of the worst German excesses, the simpler designs are reasonably elegant.
Pleasant enough pianos though, the bigger ones especially. There's better value around though!
Hi Piano Guy, Thanks again. I've decided to spend that extra Ł1k.
I'm very influenced by the discussion here and shortlisted Wendl&Lung. But unfortunately, my local retailer does not have a W&L. Tried August Hoffman, Bentley, and G Steinberg. Quite like Hoffman and Steinberg.
Any idea how they compare to W&L?
I'm very influenced by the discussion here and shortlisted Wendl&Lung. But unfortunately, my local retailer does not have a W&L. Tried August Hoffman, Bentley, and G Steinberg. Quite like Hoffman and Steinberg.
Any idea how they compare to W&L?
Hi Olayie
At your new price level you can go for a new piano of 110 or possibly 115cm height, so here goes:
The new Bentley's imported by Inter Music so it's probably a Pearl River design (your retailer could tell you this). Nowt wrong with the build of those, and the Gehr. Steinberg is excellent, being built by Yantai Perzina .
The only W&L that I know intimately is the 122 cm version which is great sounding because of its height and design. Translate the build quality (described on recent threads) to a smaller piano and the others you mention will certainly give it a run for its money. A 122cm W&L is out of your price range.
The August Hoffman (not to be confused with other Hoffmanns, Hofmanns and Hofmans and def-o not with the excellent but too expensive German W.Hoffmann which is a subsidiary of Bechstein) is made by Nordiska and is a great little piano... Of course actually *built* in China by the third piano giant, the Dongbei Corp.
All of the above will trounce your previously mentioned Marshal 116 which is built by the Shanghai Yue Yin Co, the least known Chinese maker. The lack of a known UK importer is also a minus.
What used pianos does your local dealer have?
At your new price level you can go for a new piano of 110 or possibly 115cm height, so here goes:
The new Bentley's imported by Inter Music so it's probably a Pearl River design (your retailer could tell you this). Nowt wrong with the build of those, and the Gehr. Steinberg is excellent, being built by Yantai Perzina .
The only W&L that I know intimately is the 122 cm version which is great sounding because of its height and design. Translate the build quality (described on recent threads) to a smaller piano and the others you mention will certainly give it a run for its money. A 122cm W&L is out of your price range.
The August Hoffman (not to be confused with other Hoffmanns, Hofmanns and Hofmans and def-o not with the excellent but too expensive German W.Hoffmann which is a subsidiary of Bechstein) is made by Nordiska and is a great little piano... Of course actually *built* in China by the third piano giant, the Dongbei Corp.
All of the above will trounce your previously mentioned Marshal 116 which is built by the Shanghai Yue Yin Co, the least known Chinese maker. The lack of a known UK importer is also a minus.
What used pianos does your local dealer have?
Further W&L research has told me that some dealers will discount a 122 down to 2k. (RRP is 2,495) so you may well find one within your budget.
The very latest Wendl & Lungs to be shipped shortly are said to have various new improvements. I have not yet witnessed these, but it all sounds good news to me. Especially if they've tidied up the less visible bits of casework!
The very latest Wendl & Lungs to be shipped shortly are said to have various new improvements. I have not yet witnessed these, but it all sounds good news to me. Especially if they've tidied up the less visible bits of casework!
Hiya,
Thanks a lot for the info. Actually, I've short-listed Gehr Steinberg and W&L. Will also like to see Pearl River, but can't find one locally. August Hoffman is made in Northeast of China, so may not adapt British weather that well (maybe i worry too much). My local retailer also mentioned the new changes of W&L.... but without seeing it, it's bit risky. Will let you know if I found one.
I'm also open to second-hand ones, but really not sure I can pick the right one. I suppose second-hand ones are better value for money?
I'm going to Devon for a short break. Will keep my eyes open for piano shops there. Ohhh, all I dream recently is a PIANO ....
Thanks a lot for the info. Actually, I've short-listed Gehr Steinberg and W&L. Will also like to see Pearl River, but can't find one locally. August Hoffman is made in Northeast of China, so may not adapt British weather that well (maybe i worry too much). My local retailer also mentioned the new changes of W&L.... but without seeing it, it's bit risky. Will let you know if I found one.
I'm also open to second-hand ones, but really not sure I can pick the right one. I suppose second-hand ones are better value for money?
I'm going to Devon for a short break. Will keep my eyes open for piano shops there. Ohhh, all I dream recently is a PIANO ....
The Bentley that you saw was probably a Pearl River.
I don't think there are any major piano shops in Devon, the biggest piano dealer in the West is Bristol Piano Co who are Yamaha dealers amongst others, so will stock the Yamaha Pearl River C110. That should give you some idea of P-R quality.
I wouldn't worry about the suitability of the August Hoffman to our climate. The parent company, Nordiska is well practised in selling instruments all over the world. As an aside, it may be worth checking out the W&L if your local dealer is prepared to order one with no obligation. If he's a W&L dealer already, then I expect he'll be getting them in anyway.
I don't think there are any major piano shops in Devon, the biggest piano dealer in the West is Bristol Piano Co who are Yamaha dealers amongst others, so will stock the Yamaha Pearl River C110. That should give you some idea of P-R quality.
I wouldn't worry about the suitability of the August Hoffman to our climate. The parent company, Nordiska is well practised in selling instruments all over the world. As an aside, it may be worth checking out the W&L if your local dealer is prepared to order one with no obligation. If he's a W&L dealer already, then I expect he'll be getting them in anyway.
Hi Olayie,
Not that I suddenly became an expert (shortly after buying my first piano) but as somebody who tried a lot of instruments (including Gehr. Steinberg - very nice) I advise you not to buy anything before trying a Wendl & Lung. It is possible you're not going to like it but at least you'll know you tried.
Good luck and let us know...
Iulian
Not that I suddenly became an expert (shortly after buying my first piano) but as somebody who tried a lot of instruments (including Gehr. Steinberg - very nice) I advise you not to buy anything before trying a Wendl & Lung. It is possible you're not going to like it but at least you'll know you tried.
Good luck and let us know...
Iulian
Hi guys, thank you both so much!
I went to Bristol Piano Centre today and tried their Halle&Voight 118, Yamaha, Kawai and Kingsburg 115. I like the Halle&Voight best and got a quote just within my budget. I've never heard of it before. It is made by Pearl River, same as Bentley, but branded a different name. I really don't like either the touch and tone of Bentley, but for some reason am really keen of the Halle&Voight.
Really nice people there! Very honest and helpful. However, they do not have a W&L in stock. But my local dealer will possibly get one in soon. Fingers crossed.
I'll keep you updated.
I went to Bristol Piano Centre today and tried their Halle&Voight 118, Yamaha, Kawai and Kingsburg 115. I like the Halle&Voight best and got a quote just within my budget. I've never heard of it before. It is made by Pearl River, same as Bentley, but branded a different name. I really don't like either the touch and tone of Bentley, but for some reason am really keen of the Halle&Voight.
Really nice people there! Very honest and helpful. However, they do not have a W&L in stock. But my local dealer will possibly get one in soon. Fingers crossed.
I'll keep you updated.
Sounds like you've been having fun at the budget end of the market! There's a lot going on in that price bracket, and you'll end up with a great little piano for a sensible price if you persevere!
I've still not seen the latest W&L yet, but I tune a few of the older ones and rate them highly. The Halle & Voights that I've worked on are mostly 110cm models and are very good value from the Pearl River stable, but a friend of mine has recently sold a 6'0" Young Chang grand for space reasons and bought the big Halle & Voight 132, which is a credible Yamaha U3 sized piano at the ridiculously low price of a shade under 3k brand new. It's very impressive at that price, and is a good indicator of what the Chinese factories are now capable of. God help Japan when they move upmarket!
I've still not seen the latest W&L yet, but I tune a few of the older ones and rate them highly. The Halle & Voights that I've worked on are mostly 110cm models and are very good value from the Pearl River stable, but a friend of mine has recently sold a 6'0" Young Chang grand for space reasons and bought the big Halle & Voight 132, which is a credible Yamaha U3 sized piano at the ridiculously low price of a shade under 3k brand new. It's very impressive at that price, and is a good indicator of what the Chinese factories are now capable of. God help Japan when they move upmarket!
Hi, I'm coming to report my latest progress :p
Good news is i'll finally get my hands on a brandnew W&L possibly early next week. Will then make a decision which one to buy.
I found a brand new Hopkinson 120 as well, similar price to W&L. This Hopkinson was built in the British Piano Manufactorying Company(?) Gloucetershire. The inside was imported from China, but the case was made in the UK (branded made in England on the case). Unfortunately, the company was closed a while ago, so although I really like the sound and touch, am a little worried about the build quality.
Another question, PianoGuy, the Halle&Voight was made by Pearl River, then why not they brand it Pearl River instead of H&V? I found there are so many piano names, but actually they are made by no more than a dozen piano makers.
Thanks again!
Good news is i'll finally get my hands on a brandnew W&L possibly early next week. Will then make a decision which one to buy.
I found a brand new Hopkinson 120 as well, similar price to W&L. This Hopkinson was built in the British Piano Manufactorying Company(?) Gloucetershire. The inside was imported from China, but the case was made in the UK (branded made in England on the case). Unfortunately, the company was closed a while ago, so although I really like the sound and touch, am a little worried about the build quality.
Another question, PianoGuy, the Halle&Voight was made by Pearl River, then why not they brand it Pearl River instead of H&V? I found there are so many piano names, but actually they are made by no more than a dozen piano makers.
Thanks again!
I was once told by a Yantai employee that similar pianos were sold under many brand names so that several competing dealers could sell what were essentially identical pianos for whatever prices they wanted to without actually appearing to compete with, or undercut each other.
I think there may be a grain of truth in this, but another more cynical theory is that the new Chinese factories simply want to buy up as many old European piano brand names as they can. In practice it's all rather confusing!
The Hopkinson name was used on a few Perzina based pianos, and was to be part of the Bentley 2000 range, but sadly BPMC who owned Bentley went bust in early 2003. The pianos have Yantai Perzina mechanicals and backs but English designed and built casework, so they should be no less reliable than a Perzina.
I think there may be a grain of truth in this, but another more cynical theory is that the new Chinese factories simply want to buy up as many old European piano brand names as they can. In practice it's all rather confusing!
The Hopkinson name was used on a few Perzina based pianos, and was to be part of the Bentley 2000 range, but sadly BPMC who owned Bentley went bust in early 2003. The pianos have Yantai Perzina mechanicals and backs but English designed and built casework, so they should be no less reliable than a Perzina.
Hopkinson and Gehr.Steinberg will be virtually identical in build because the Perzina components were bought in complete and jigged-up and casework added in the UK, but the Bentley built casework will be more elegant than the basic Perzina. As far as I recall, the Bentley "Exeter" model donated the casework design to the Hopkinson model, and the combination of this and the Perzina innards should be a better piano than the Exeter itself!
Still not seen the new W&L. When I do, I'll let you know about my findings with the build quality. The versions that I have seen were not bad in the areas where it matters, and I'm sure will last a lifetime in any case, so I wouldn't worry about any of your shortlist.
PG
Still not seen the new W&L. When I do, I'll let you know about my findings with the build quality. The versions that I have seen were not bad in the areas where it matters, and I'm sure will last a lifetime in any case, so I wouldn't worry about any of your shortlist.
PG
Just saw the new version of W&L. It looks posh and sounds like a baby grand! Nice touch and really rich sound. However, to me the sound isnt as bright and mellow as Hopkinson. The new improvements (according to my local retailer) are new hammer heads, double wheels, etc (cant remember all of them now)
On the other hand, the Hopkinson I saw is an old stock, which has marks and scratches on the case and the inside is quite dusty. The sound is as rich as W&L and I prefer the touch of W&L.
Really not sure which one to buy now.
Help!!!
On the other hand, the Hopkinson I saw is an old stock, which has marks and scratches on the case and the inside is quite dusty. The sound is as rich as W&L and I prefer the touch of W&L.
Really not sure which one to buy now.
Help!!!
Do'h! It's really not my day!
Yes, Hopkinson 119, Gehr Stainberg and W&L are the same price.
We've decieded to go for W&L as you adviced, however.... found a deep scratch (about 2.5cm long) on the right side of the case. They said they can try to repair it for me. If they can't, they have to order another one for me. Do'h!!! It will take another 3 to 4 weeks but I really don't want to wait that long! So I may opt for one of Hopkinson or Stainberg.
Sigh......
They added some extra bits to the new W&L. It looks really impressive and its much louder richer than others. However not bright and mellow enough. I'm too fussy.
Yes, Hopkinson 119, Gehr Stainberg and W&L are the same price.
We've decieded to go for W&L as you adviced, however.... found a deep scratch (about 2.5cm long) on the right side of the case. They said they can try to repair it for me. If they can't, they have to order another one for me. Do'h!!! It will take another 3 to 4 weeks but I really don't want to wait that long! So I may opt for one of Hopkinson or Stainberg.
Sigh......
They added some extra bits to the new W&L. It looks really impressive and its much louder richer than others. However not bright and mellow enough. I'm too fussy.
It's not is it!
Never mind, if you can get either the W&L or the Perzina based Hopkinson for your 2K budget, you're doing well!
The Hopkinson 2000 was nearly 3k at list, and the W&L is Ł2495. I think the basic Gehr.Steinberg represents less good value at 2K. If you really love the sound of the "Perzopkinson" (!) more in fact than the W&L and you really don't want to wait for the replacement W&L, then for that price it may be worth putting up with a few minor knocks on it. .... or the scratch on the W&L for that matter....
I think you're getting good value with either, and bear in mind that it won't stay unmarked for ever even if it's perfect when you get it.
As for the touch being better on the W&L, but the sound of the Hopkinson being better, it seems you've got a bit of soul searching to do. At this level, there has to be a compromise somewhere! I think you're on your own from now on. You have a very sensible shortlist of two, and either represents excellent value and quality at your price point!
Good luck
PGx
Never mind, if you can get either the W&L or the Perzina based Hopkinson for your 2K budget, you're doing well!
The Hopkinson 2000 was nearly 3k at list, and the W&L is Ł2495. I think the basic Gehr.Steinberg represents less good value at 2K. If you really love the sound of the "Perzopkinson" (!) more in fact than the W&L and you really don't want to wait for the replacement W&L, then for that price it may be worth putting up with a few minor knocks on it. .... or the scratch on the W&L for that matter....
I think you're getting good value with either, and bear in mind that it won't stay unmarked for ever even if it's perfect when you get it.
As for the touch being better on the W&L, but the sound of the Hopkinson being better, it seems you've got a bit of soul searching to do. At this level, there has to be a compromise somewhere! I think you're on your own from now on. You have a very sensible shortlist of two, and either represents excellent value and quality at your price point!
Good luck
PGx