B. Squire & Son Player Piano

theresegreenberg · Post by **theresegreenberg** » 15 Jan 2006, 19:15

Hi, I am in Austin, TX, USA and am trying to determine the year of a UK upright player piano I just acquired. Here are the numbers found on the piano:

B. Squire & Son - London (on lid) 29657 (stamped on upper left corner just above string pegs)

Higel (on the player mechanism) 21169

J H Clark 692590 (inside, near foot pedals)

On the back of a piece of the wooden cabinet, next to penciled initials R.B.(quality inspector perhaps):
657. Anything anyone can tell me about the date and history of this player piano would be greatly appreciated.
Therese Greenberg
Greenberg Creative

Post by **Bill Kibby** » 15 Jan 2006, 21:22

No-one anywhere can give you the life history of every piano, and no archive material survives for Squire. Clark was the maker of the iron frame, Higel made the player action, but whether Squire made the piano is difficult to say, it may be a Kemble, in which case there would be a serial number, possibly halfway down inside the left, beginning with a K. See
http://www.uk-piano.org/piano-gen/datem ... ianos.html

theresegreenberg · Post by **theresegreenberg** » 15 Jan 2006, 22:12

Thank you Bill,

I have been to your website many times.

B. Squire & Son - London is written large beautiful gold letters right on the keyboard cover and 29657 seems to be the serial number located in the upper left corner behind the strings.

According to the Kemble website, http://www.uk-piano.org/kemble/serial_numbers.html, 32100 (1930) is their oldest and smallest serial number. Ours (29657) must pre-date this -- 1929 perhaps? What do you think?

Can the Kemble(21169) or Clark(692590 )serial numbers be used to date it? If so, how would I go about it?

What is the 657 number stamped on the back of a part I removed from the wooden cabinet?

I'm happy to hear from anyone who can shed some light?

Thank you,

Therese Greenberg

Greenberg Creative

Post by **Bill Kibby** » 16 Jan 2006, 00:36

Clark doesn't have dateable numbers, unless there is an actual casting date on the frame. 657 is the last 3 digits of the main number, which confirms it, as mentioned in my Numbers page. Kembles don't know when they started making Squire pianos, but their numbers always had a K in front.

theresegreenberg · Post by **theresegreenberg** » 16 Jan 2006, 06:36

Thanks,

There is no K before the number.

I received the following as the result of another inquiry:

"January 15, 2006

Hello Therese,

Your B Squire and Sons piano was manufactured in 1924-1926 in England, by the Kemble Piano Co. To obtain the value of your piano, I would suggest you order an online Piano appraisal at www.bluebookofpianos.com, click on Piano Appraisal to fill out the form about your piano."

Does anyone else think this is correct?

Therese Greenberg

Greenberg Creative

theresegreenberg · Post by **theresegreenberg** » 16 Jan 2006, 06:42

P.S.

I meant to ask, can it be dated with the Higel serial number - 21169?

Therese Greenberg

Greenberg Creative

Post by **Bill Kibby** » 16 Jan 2006, 12:50

A growing number of websites offer apparently simple dating of pianos by numbers. These dates are based on books, which in turn quote from other books which are often wrong or misleading. See
http://www.uk-piano.org/piano-gen/piano ... mbers.html

Kembles have no dates of their numbers before 1930, apart from ones I have given them, which would suggest 1925, but they certainly had the K by 1930. Some have the date on a paper label at the top centre of the back, usually hidden from view by the backcloth. I have no dates for Higel numbers, and no original archive information is available. Modern Higel actions are made by Herrburger Brooks.

theresegreenberg · Post by **theresegreenberg** » 17 Jan 2006, 01:51

Thank you for the tip,

I found the paper on the back and the date says 12/29. It also has a list of duties with each employee signing off on tasks completed. One of the people singing it is even a "Clark."

Thanks

Therese Greenberg

Greenberg Creative

Post by **Bill Kibby** » 01 Feb 2006, 12:56

The "& Sons" later became "& Son" but it is difficult to draw conclusions about dates of pianos from this, because they don't seem to tally with the directory entries. One possibility is that some "Squire & Son" pianos were before 1870, then they became Squire & SonS, then reverted again.

There is very little I can add if you have read the comments above your posting, except to say that a number preceded by JB would not be the serial number, it is the stock number of a retailer, such as John Barker, Kensington. If it was sold by them, JB1612 was around 1890, but I can't begin to guess how much later JB15201 would be. See

http://www.uk-piano.org/piano-gen/datem ... ianos.html

theresegreenberg · Post by **theresegreenberg** » 01 Feb 2006, 17:49

Our piano (a player piano) says "B. Squire & Son" (singular). The paper we found on the back, under the black cloth, dates it as Dec. 1929.

Therese

Family_Dog · Post by **Family_Dog** » 19 Mar 2006, 15:54

Interesting. I have an upright piano simply with the name "B.Squire" on the inside lid. The serial number is 97353 and that it has a "Schwander" metal frame.

Looking this up on the Kember site, the piano is dated pre-1960. There is no "K" in front of the serial number, however.

-Eric

Post by **Bill Kibby** » 19 Mar 2006, 20:26

If the number is not preceded by a K, it is not a Kemble, so that information is not relevant. Schwander made the action, not the frame, and if there is a number on the rear of the action, we may be able to date it: See the end of
http://www.uk-piano.org/piano-gen/piano ... mbers.html

Family_Dog · Post by **Family_Dog** » 19 Mar 2006, 20:56

Hi Bill,

Thank you for the prompt reply. You state that Schwander made the action, not the frame... does this mean that Schwander then made the part comprising the nylon pads and movement (which I presume are called the action) while the metal frame is made by B. Squire? The serial number I found was stencilled on in large black letters on the upper left part of the metal frame. Would you know what year this then might be, assuming that this is the actual serial number (97353)?

Please excuse my ignorance on the anatomy of a piano, I was thinking of selling this instrument but am now having second thoughts since reading your most interesting web articles.

-Eric

Post by **Bill Kibby** » 19 Mar 2006, 22:19

You have to bear in mind that in spite of lots of words, all I know about this piano is that it has a Schwander action. It could be modern or victorian for all I know. The iron frame would be made in a foundry, for the piano makers, presumably Squire. Schwander numbers can usually be dated reliably, whereas Squire numbers cannot. Email me.

Family_Dog · Post by **Family_Dog** » 21 Mar 2006, 20:30

Hi Bill,

I have sent you an Email with a couple of pictures of the piano.

Regards

-Eric

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B. Squire & Son Player Piano

B. Squire & Son Player Piano

B. Squire player piano

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