Alas Not Bosendorfer... I wish...
Does anyone have any experience or knowledge of the Bechendorfer XG148S Grand Piano. I think it's the only grand they do. I’m considering buying it new for my 11-year-old whos doing his grades(5 at present, beats me anytime). I’m a little lost in the fog. Could I expect this would see him to grade 8 plus a little more if he goes further. Would I be hindering or helping him?!
I have also thought about a Kawai GM10 and Yamaha G2 or C1 and possibly the Yamaha U3 upright.
Any thoughts would be welcome… be brutal……
Bechendorfer XG148S Grand Piano
Moderators: Feg, Gill the Piano, Melodytune
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Timothy2005
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- Location: United Kingdom
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Timothy2005
- Junior Poster
- Posts: 15
- Joined: 10 Nov 2005, 14:11
- Location: United Kingdom
Re Yamaha G3,C3,CL3 from one confusted cookie!
Thanks PG, your right... You gets what yah pay for!
I would really like my son to have a Grand Piano if I can stretch to it. His Tutor is now suggesting a Yamaha CL3... although a U3 would be ok. Budget keeps going up and now thinking about financing a new CL3 or getting a secondhand C3 which seems more inline my budget.
Will be posting antoher question about difference between on older G3 for 6,500 ive seen rather than the new CL3. Ive found a second hand C3 (2002) for 8k. Do you by chance know anything about the difference on the G3, C3 CL3. Is there anything specific to these models to watch out for? My sons Tutor said the older 6ft Yahamas were not so great.
I would really like my son to have a Grand Piano if I can stretch to it. His Tutor is now suggesting a Yamaha CL3... although a U3 would be ok. Budget keeps going up and now thinking about financing a new CL3 or getting a secondhand C3 which seems more inline my budget.
Will be posting antoher question about difference between on older G3 for 6,500 ive seen rather than the new CL3. Ive found a second hand C3 (2002) for 8k. Do you by chance know anything about the difference on the G3, C3 CL3. Is there anything specific to these models to watch out for? My sons Tutor said the older 6ft Yahamas were not so great.
Don't think there's a CL3. You may be confusing it with the latest series designation of the C3, the C3-L. The C3 is a superb 6 footish grand and would be my first choice. There is a simplified C3 called a C3-Studio which has some intelligent compromises to reduce the price.
The G3 was a cheaper 6 foot grand which in the UK ran concurently with the C3 for many years until it was axed here. It had cheapened casework and the frame was almost Bechstein inspired rather than the C3 which has obvious Steinway leanings with its duplex scale. Then again, G3s for the Japanese home market had duplexing, so were a different beast to the ones sold here. I've just tuned a '90s imported G3 and found it to be an absolutely gorgeous piano, so try and play a few.
A 2002 C3 for 8K sounds OK, especially if it's a genuine UK market one. Less desirable (but often still good) imported grands for the Japanese market are easily identifiable by a little plastic bracket on the inside of the case (usually along the flat side) where the tuning record card should be kept.
I've never thought that there was a problem with older Yamahas other than the obvious problems associated with the fact that they're not new! Certainly not much wrong with the design or build quality, but there's a lot of high-milage crap around. Your son's tutor has probably seen an old clunker somewhere that's clouded his judgement.
The G3 was a cheaper 6 foot grand which in the UK ran concurently with the C3 for many years until it was axed here. It had cheapened casework and the frame was almost Bechstein inspired rather than the C3 which has obvious Steinway leanings with its duplex scale. Then again, G3s for the Japanese home market had duplexing, so were a different beast to the ones sold here. I've just tuned a '90s imported G3 and found it to be an absolutely gorgeous piano, so try and play a few.
A 2002 C3 for 8K sounds OK, especially if it's a genuine UK market one. Less desirable (but often still good) imported grands for the Japanese market are easily identifiable by a little plastic bracket on the inside of the case (usually along the flat side) where the tuning record card should be kept.
I've never thought that there was a problem with older Yamahas other than the obvious problems associated with the fact that they're not new! Certainly not much wrong with the design or build quality, but there's a lot of high-milage crap around. Your son's tutor has probably seen an old clunker somewhere that's clouded his judgement.
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Timothy2005
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- Joined: 10 Nov 2005, 14:11
- Location: United Kingdom
The fog seems to be clearing!
This is invaluable stuff. Many thanks PG.
I looked into the C3 Studio, but don’t think it is available new in the UK. To be honest I would rather not compromise on a grand piano. I feel that if I am to go the grand piano route rather than a U3 then I might as well go full hog and get a new C3-L (thanks for the correction).
What a dilemma! But, the fog is clearing… My thoughts thus far… No to imports…It is either a new U3 (possibly U5) or new C3-L. If I go for anything above 5-6k then I would prefer to finance part of it. Therefore a C2 is not really an option as I might as well raise a little bit more on finance to go for a new C3-L or good second-hand C3. I think a good second-hand C3/G3 may be hard to find and time consuming, especially when you take the case of a 2002 C3 at 8k versus a new C3-L at a starting discounted price of 10.9k (www.chrisvenables.co.uk) It’s a choice of finance 2-3k or 5-6k.
The second-hand market seems full of pitfalls unless one really knows how to spot the rogue, knows what to look for or has a technician at hand. I’ve been through local piano restorer and ebay route, but it seems too much of a minefield. However, I suspect a good deal can be had if one really knows what one is doing…. Unfortunately, I don’t…
Anyway back to relevancy or may be not. I have this nagging thought that a C3-L will be a better learning experience for my son. I like the idea of him at his age (11), trying to master this beast of an instrument (C3-L). That somehow he will find it easier to appreciate the subtleness of tone and nurture expression to a finer degree. I am a hopeful romantic really, but can admit to being a fool that doesn’t have a clue…
On the other hand I could get the new U3 without finance. They seem to hold value well, so an upgrade when my son is older may be the route… Indeed it may be more sensible as he would be in a better position to choose the piano he prefers. But I am unsure of the subtleties of touch regarding U3 v C3-L and more so what effect (If any) it may have on his learning. Tone, base etc I can appreciate, but I have a feeling I am being completely paranoid considering the models I am looking at.
ChrisWenables have offered to voice a couple of U3’s and a couple of C3-L’s to display how the same model can differ. In short PG, I think my next move is to spend a few hours annoying the hell out of a salesman whilst test driving a few U3’s & C3-L’s with my son. The trouble is that I am a sucker for anything nice. I must remind myself not to get carried away, to leave my chequebook at home, to deliberate and then go back with a decision... or simply to remember to take my wife!…. Sorry ladies, if you’re reading!
If possible and your time permits, any thoughts would be welcome and appreciated. Specifically relating to the learning experience issue that keeps nagging at me and the comparison between U3 and C3-L for a young impressionable student with great potential. In your judgment is there any benefit in going for the U5 instead of the U3, especially considering that it is likely to be sold within 3 to 4 years if I went down the upright route.
I looked into the C3 Studio, but don’t think it is available new in the UK. To be honest I would rather not compromise on a grand piano. I feel that if I am to go the grand piano route rather than a U3 then I might as well go full hog and get a new C3-L (thanks for the correction).
What a dilemma! But, the fog is clearing… My thoughts thus far… No to imports…It is either a new U3 (possibly U5) or new C3-L. If I go for anything above 5-6k then I would prefer to finance part of it. Therefore a C2 is not really an option as I might as well raise a little bit more on finance to go for a new C3-L or good second-hand C3. I think a good second-hand C3/G3 may be hard to find and time consuming, especially when you take the case of a 2002 C3 at 8k versus a new C3-L at a starting discounted price of 10.9k (www.chrisvenables.co.uk) It’s a choice of finance 2-3k or 5-6k.
The second-hand market seems full of pitfalls unless one really knows how to spot the rogue, knows what to look for or has a technician at hand. I’ve been through local piano restorer and ebay route, but it seems too much of a minefield. However, I suspect a good deal can be had if one really knows what one is doing…. Unfortunately, I don’t…
Anyway back to relevancy or may be not. I have this nagging thought that a C3-L will be a better learning experience for my son. I like the idea of him at his age (11), trying to master this beast of an instrument (C3-L). That somehow he will find it easier to appreciate the subtleness of tone and nurture expression to a finer degree. I am a hopeful romantic really, but can admit to being a fool that doesn’t have a clue…
On the other hand I could get the new U3 without finance. They seem to hold value well, so an upgrade when my son is older may be the route… Indeed it may be more sensible as he would be in a better position to choose the piano he prefers. But I am unsure of the subtleties of touch regarding U3 v C3-L and more so what effect (If any) it may have on his learning. Tone, base etc I can appreciate, but I have a feeling I am being completely paranoid considering the models I am looking at.
ChrisWenables have offered to voice a couple of U3’s and a couple of C3-L’s to display how the same model can differ. In short PG, I think my next move is to spend a few hours annoying the hell out of a salesman whilst test driving a few U3’s & C3-L’s with my son. The trouble is that I am a sucker for anything nice. I must remind myself not to get carried away, to leave my chequebook at home, to deliberate and then go back with a decision... or simply to remember to take my wife!…. Sorry ladies, if you’re reading!
If possible and your time permits, any thoughts would be welcome and appreciated. Specifically relating to the learning experience issue that keeps nagging at me and the comparison between U3 and C3-L for a young impressionable student with great potential. In your judgment is there any benefit in going for the U5 instead of the U3, especially considering that it is likely to be sold within 3 to 4 years if I went down the upright route.
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Timothy2005
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- Joined: 10 Nov 2005, 14:11
- Location: United Kingdom
Nearly there
U3 or C3 is all I think I need to make a decision on now. I’ve posted another question about learning experience on grand or upright as I learnt as an adult, self taught on an old wreck! Sort of explains my level of playing really!
This is the first time I’ve used a forum for info... Once again PG; Many thanks you've helped me a lot.
This is the first time I’ve used a forum for info... Once again PG; Many thanks you've helped me a lot.
Re: Nearly there
You'll be buying the best piano at the price point in either case.Timothy2005 wrote:U3 or C3 is all I think I need to make a decision on now.
I'd be happy with either, and I'm a hard to please cynic as you may have guessed!
Try and buy a destined-for-UK model for residuals alone unless you really can't afford it. As I have said, some of the grey imports are great, but they'll never be worth as much. Ever tried selling a Mazda Eunos? looks and drives just like an MX5, but worth about half. You get the picture by now I'm sure!!
P.Guy
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Timothy2005
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- Location: United Kingdom
Spot On PG.... I’ve had a Eunos sitting in the garage for the last 2 years! Haven’t tried selling it yet though! My wife bought it 7 years ago. Absolutely brilliant car, but she now has an MX5 Nevada UK model.... Suffered from the ‘Oh dear Madam is it an import’ when insuring or getting spare parts. But must say, I’ve hardly ever needed any parts and drives the same as a UK model… I’m just about to advertise it to help pay for the piano! So, if anyone reading is looking for a well maintained Eunos Roadster, let me know!…
Back to biz… I’ve lined up a good range of pianos for my son to try over the weekend. Personally, I’m edging towards a new U3 or a recent second-hand UK one. I think it is sensible, considering his age and finances. I know how personal choosing a piano is and this will also give him a better opportunity to choose his own grand piano in a few years, assuming he’s not just into girls, xbox, texting and bling... Bless him.. Also gives him something to work for…
I’ve seen quite a few second-hand U3 imports advertised. I spoke to one (clueless) chap who has 6 on offer. Seems to be an influx of them (U3’s I mean) with guys looking to make a quick buck at the expense of the quality dealer that offers value for money… Quite low prices though, but then so was my Eunos with no service history and a limited warranty… It basically had to "Spontaneously Combust" for the warranty to be worth a damn.
Maybe I’m just cynical…
I don’t really understand why when buying a second-hand U3 it is suggested to look at serial numbers above 4 million. Is there also the same sort of thing with the C3? Can you help me on this or point me in the right direction? Many thanks... Tim
Is it PG.. Pee Gee.. P.Guy?
Back to biz… I’ve lined up a good range of pianos for my son to try over the weekend. Personally, I’m edging towards a new U3 or a recent second-hand UK one. I think it is sensible, considering his age and finances. I know how personal choosing a piano is and this will also give him a better opportunity to choose his own grand piano in a few years, assuming he’s not just into girls, xbox, texting and bling... Bless him.. Also gives him something to work for…
I’ve seen quite a few second-hand U3 imports advertised. I spoke to one (clueless) chap who has 6 on offer. Seems to be an influx of them (U3’s I mean) with guys looking to make a quick buck at the expense of the quality dealer that offers value for money… Quite low prices though, but then so was my Eunos with no service history and a limited warranty… It basically had to "Spontaneously Combust" for the warranty to be worth a damn.
Maybe I’m just cynical… I don’t really understand why when buying a second-hand U3 it is suggested to look at serial numbers above 4 million. Is there also the same sort of thing with the C3? Can you help me on this or point me in the right direction? Many thanks... Tim
Is it PG.. Pee Gee.. P.Guy?
Hi Tim,
The 4 million thing is simply an age and residuals thing. It means that it's under 20 yrs old (4 mil was 1986) and the quality was very good by that time. 5 mil is even better.
Think Golf GTi Mk2. A 'big bumper' from '90 is worth more than a 'standard bumper' from '89.... but they're essentially the same.
Good luck with the Eunos. I'd be tempted if I hadn't just shelled out on an old fashioned British 2-seater!
Guy
The 4 million thing is simply an age and residuals thing. It means that it's under 20 yrs old (4 mil was 1986) and the quality was very good by that time. 5 mil is even better.
Think Golf GTi Mk2. A 'big bumper' from '90 is worth more than a 'standard bumper' from '89.... but they're essentially the same.
Good luck with the Eunos. I'd be tempted if I hadn't just shelled out on an old fashioned British 2-seater!
Guy
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Timothy2005
- Junior Poster
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- Joined: 10 Nov 2005, 14:11
- Location: United Kingdom
Yamaha C3 & Ringing on one note
Hi Guy
Im nearly there
. Still got the Eunos though!
Ive just been to look at a Yamaha C3 and something is nagging me. I think it is minor and nothing that a good tuner cant cure, but nevertheless its nagging.
There is a noticeable buzz, more of a twang/ringing on one note when the soft pedal is pressed. The G above middle C. All other notes are fine. It has very mildly rusted treble strings and the room was quite cold and felt a little damp. I have read that the ringing could be caused by the damper felts being hard or crusty from being wet or very damp. But I am no expert. Also there was a dull clunk that could be heard on the soft pedal action. I assume this is a minor adjustment, but thought worth mentioning in relation to the ringing only accruing when the soft pedal is pressed.
The casework is immaculate, not a scratch. Its serial number is above 3mil and a UK model as far as I can tell and in accordance to owners history/storey.
It seems to have been played very little, hammers hardly indented. Plus hasnt been used for some time as children have grown up and fled the nest.
Any thoughts
Cheers
Tim
PS. What 2 seater do you have?
Ive just been to look at a Yamaha C3 and something is nagging me. I think it is minor and nothing that a good tuner cant cure, but nevertheless its nagging.
There is a noticeable buzz, more of a twang/ringing on one note when the soft pedal is pressed. The G above middle C. All other notes are fine. It has very mildly rusted treble strings and the room was quite cold and felt a little damp. I have read that the ringing could be caused by the damper felts being hard or crusty from being wet or very damp. But I am no expert. Also there was a dull clunk that could be heard on the soft pedal action. I assume this is a minor adjustment, but thought worth mentioning in relation to the ringing only accruing when the soft pedal is pressed.
The casework is immaculate, not a scratch. Its serial number is above 3mil and a UK model as far as I can tell and in accordance to owners history/storey.
It seems to have been played very little, hammers hardly indented. Plus hasnt been used for some time as children have grown up and fled the nest.
Any thoughts
Cheers
Tim
PS. What 2 seater do you have?
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Timothy2005
- Junior Poster
- Posts: 15
- Joined: 10 Nov 2005, 14:11
- Location: United Kingdom
Hi Guy
Funny thing Knows you get what you pay for. Ł4.5k which makes me suspicious. Its a reasonable price, with explainable reason.
The vendor was considering putting in for auction but by the time they paid Bonhams fees would only set to realise 5k maybe 5.5k which meant a buyer would need to pay lot more. Done the figures according to Bohnams and 7k to buyer at auction would mean 4.7k to vendor by the time you take into account buyers and vendor premiums, insurance and VAT. Chap has exchanged and moving home. Story works out, but still..
Also the serial number begins with a D, do you know what thats about.
Triumph yeh? Whats with the black dash?.. Did you do the restoration
Tim
Ps. The piano has been located in a bay window and as far as I can gather been there for some time. No dinks, dents to the contrary. Dont know whether that helps
Funny thing Knows you get what you pay for. Ł4.5k which makes me suspicious. Its a reasonable price, with explainable reason.
The vendor was considering putting in for auction but by the time they paid Bonhams fees would only set to realise 5k maybe 5.5k which meant a buyer would need to pay lot more. Done the figures according to Bohnams and 7k to buyer at auction would mean 4.7k to vendor by the time you take into account buyers and vendor premiums, insurance and VAT. Chap has exchanged and moving home. Story works out, but still..
Also the serial number begins with a D, do you know what thats about.
Triumph yeh? Whats with the black dash?.. Did you do the restoration
Tim
Ps. The piano has been located in a bay window and as far as I can gather been there for some time. No dinks, dents to the contrary. Dont know whether that helps
Sounds like a deal. Now is the time to get your trusted piano tuner along to see it.Timothy2005 wrote:Hi Guy
Funny thing Knows you get what you pay for. Ł4.5k which makes me suspicious. Its a reasonable price, with explainable reason.
If you don't have a trusted piano tuner, ring up the institution, school or college in your area with the best reputation for music and ask who tunes their pianos. Don't be fobbed off by letters after names in adverts.
The D before the serial no. is the series number. Have a look inside the rim of the piano on the 'flat' side and see if there's the evidence of that wallet holder. If there is, then it's imported. If possible, get to see the sales receipt. 3mil is getting on for 30 years old now, and people often think their pianos are younger than they are!
Good luck!
(A few MkIVs had a black vinyl dashboard. No I haven't time to restore cars as well as pianos, so i bought it at great expense fully rebuilt!)