Yamaha UX versus Steniway Model Z

Michael R · Post by **Michael R** » 26 Oct 2005, 12:13

We're looking for a good upright piano and seem to be settling towards a Yamaha U3/5/X or a Steinway Model Z from around the 1980s.

We were wondering if you thought we're on the right lines or are there others we should be searching for too? Any ideas of which would be the better model and how much we should expect to pay (in UK currency)?

Thank you!

Michael

Michael R · Post by **Michael R** » 26 Oct 2005, 13:30

Apologies for the spelling mistake in title of the post...

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 26 Oct 2005, 15:10

You like ugly pianos don't you?

The model Z goes a long way to prove that even Steinway get it horribly wrong some of the time. The '80s version is squat, stunted and sounds like a box of ducks. Dealers hate these, but will never let on to this fact! The pre-war version is at least good looking, but you really need a model K or a V if you must have a Steinway upright.

The U5 is an ugly brute which is redolent of a huge American Upright of the early 20th Century. It's the same height as a U3 (131cm) but technically a little better: Hardwood cored hammers, agraffes, massive 6-post back construction; celeste rail; sostenuto and vented cabinet front, but can you honestly live with the appearance of those stupid mahogany bits of trim which look like they've been stolen from a pro-footballer's Lexus. The improvements to the sound are not worth the sacrifice of the U3's good looks.

The UX is an imported U3 based piano with a special bracing shape to the back and outrageously ugly casework. Better sounding than a contemporary U3, but UXs are getting old now. Always go for a U series with a serial number higher than 4 million. As foul looking than the U5, although less noticeably so if you never shut the fall.

Go for the understated classic and definitive U3 if you ever intend selling, since the U5, UX and Z will be harder to shift. If you don't intend selling the best piano by a short measure is the U5. Forget the UX unless cheap, and the Z because it's crap.

Smart money goes on a non-imported UK sourced U3.

Prices:

Steinway Z 1980s: Don't pay more than 3K. This will inevitably mean you won't be offering what the dealer's asking, because you'll be expected to pay a huge premium for that badge. Count yourself fortunate that you've had a lucky escape.

U3: 4mil serial Jap import 3K; UK sourced 3.5k; new 4.5K - 5K. Watch out for new grey imports.

U5: new 4.8 - 5K

UX: similar to s/h U3 price. 4mil or later are getting hard to find.

Guy

Michael R · Post by **Michael R** » 26 Oct 2005, 21:04

Thanks Guy,

We spent the afternoon at a dealers and played a number of U3s, new and used (1970s), a new U5 and a Steinway Model V (1969). To us the sound of the Model V was way ahead of the Yamahas, it really sang.

I know what you mean about the Lexus stripes on the U5!

The U3s, particularly the new ones, seemed a little muffled somehow, rather smoothed out... the Model V had both greater clarity as well as greater dynamic range, though it perhaps lacked a little in depth of its bass.

Pianos in the same range can sound so different, I guess we need to keep looking and playing as many as we can until we find the gem we're looking for. We're going to another dealers tomorrow who supposedly have a Model Z - will approach with caution!!!

Thanks again for your help - it's much appreciated.

Cheers,
Michael

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 26 Oct 2005, 21:50

No problem!

The V is a nice little piano. The K has the bass that the V lacks, but the price tag to go with it!

If you've never seen a Z, it lacks the elegance of the V or K. It's a modern-cased ugly little thing that looks like this:

Watch out for imported U3s, some of which can be badly prepared and sound below par. A UK market U3 has the model type tampo-printed in black paint on the frame whilst cheap Jap imports have a plastic U3 badge stuck to the frame.

PG

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 26 Oct 2005, 21:54

PianoGuy wrote:
Watch out for new grey imports.

Guy

That’s a new one on me ! do tell us more

Barrie,

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 26 Oct 2005, 22:13

Grey importation of Yamaha U1s and U3s direct from Japan has now become so widespread in Europe that it is possible to buy an imported U3 with a serial number later than the latest pianos emerging from Yamaha-Kemble.

Many non-Yamaha dealers are starting to stock them. Whilst they are in the main perfectly good pianos, they should be declared as "as-new" parallel imports, and offered at a keen price. Of course, the lack of the piano's history (some may have been pre-owned for a short time in spite of their youth!) and scrutineering of dealerships outside the Yamaha dealer network is bound to lead to a few that are prepared poorly.

It's easy to distinguish them from UK stock by the U badge and the document wallet affixed to the inside of the top door.

Properly prepared and priced right, they can be good value, but bear in mind that the warranty will be from the dealer as if the piano were a used item, not from Yamaha-Kemble.

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 26 Oct 2005, 22:59

PianoGuy wrote:Properly prepared and priced right, they can be good value, but bear in mind that the warranty will be from the dealer as if the piano were a used item, not from Yamaha-Kemble.

I would say that was a Grey area and the rules will be the same as imported new cars through non franchised dealers as defined by the EEC for all products sold by multi national company’s

What I was told was..... As it stands if you buy a new piano in any EEC country and you have a problem _providing_ you have gone direct to your nearest Yamaha centre they have to fix that piano if that piano is still under manufactures warranty. However, if you have contacted the place you got the piano form first they must fix it

Of course it could get very interesting if the Yamaha dealer said sod off

Barrie,

Michael R · Post by **Michael R** » 27 Oct 2005, 19:26

The hunt continues!

We've had an interesting day touring some dealers in Oxford. The Steinway Model Z was already sold, so we missed the opportunity to look at it for ourselves sadly. We tried more Yamahas and still didn't really get on with them.

We then discovered some Bechstein Model 10s which had a beautiful tone to them. We weren't really looking for pianos of that age because of the supposed problem with central heating, but we were told that it would be fine. What do you think?

The one that shone in particular dated from 1907(?), had clearly been very well looked after and had been reconditioned perhaps 10-20 years ago. The restorer wants to do some work to it to sharpen it up a little, but he thought that it was already in excellent shape. We're going to have another listen when the restorer has worked his magic.

I'm still a little uneasy at the idea of buying a piano of that age...

Thanks again for your help folks - all thoughts and comments appreciated!

Best wishes,
Michael

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 27 Oct 2005, 19:37

Personally I think model 10s are more trouble than they're worth, especially when fitted with the action which is connected to the key. Huge monsters, but then again I'm not a fan of old Bechstein Uprights.

More Bechstein Horrors:

Model IVs invariably have plank problems unless it's been (expertly) replaced.

Model 9s sound poorer but are a better bet.

The Model IV problem is severely aggravated by central heating. No old piano is as good at surviving central heating as a new one.

Resist, resist!

Are you buying a piano for life or just for Xmas?

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 27 Oct 2005, 20:03

I would agree that the tyed action of the old Bechstein are a pain but the costa spring when it is set up correct works well However, the soundboards of these pianos are getting too old.

You need to cast your net a little further
http://www.countrywidepianos.co.uk/ stock new Bechstein as well as Yamaha you could look at the Yamaha U7 bit pricey but nice

Then you also have
http://www.cheltenham-piano-centre.co.uk/
they stock Bluthner Bechstein and others

if you are keen on a Steinway then the best place is
http://www.shackellpianos.co.uk/
and his friend down the road
http://www.mildren-pianos.co.uk

Barrie,

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 27 Oct 2005, 20:19

I'm fairly certain that the Cheltenham place was where I directed a forum member looking for a new Welmar. I think they're the company who bought all the incomplete pianos from Whelpdale's and are slowly finishing them. Is this right Barrie? Quality of their work is very good by all accounts.

Their Bechstein http://www.cheltenham-piano-centre.co.u ... s/main.cgi (number 29) seems to be rebuilt with a new laminated plank. A better bet than an older restoration I'd have thought. What did I tell you about the Model IV having plank problems?

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 27 Oct 2005, 20:51

PianoGuy wrote:I'm fairly certain that the Cheltenham place was where I directed a forum member looking for a new Welmar. I think they're the company who bought all the incomplete pianos from Whelpdale's and are slowly finishing them. Is this right Barrie? Quality of their work is very good by all accounts.

Yes

I do know that Bluthners were well impressed with Davids soundboard work

Barrie,

Michael R · Post by **Michael R** » 27 Oct 2005, 22:35

We are certainly looking to buy for life rather than Christmas!

Barrie wrote:

I would agree that the tyed action of the old Bechstein are a pain but the costa spring when it is set up correct works well However, the soundboards of these pianos are getting too old.

You both seem pretty doubtful of the Bechsteins. Would you mind explaining what is meant by "tyed action" and "costa springs" and how we would be able to tell the difference? Or is that ultimately irrelevant if you think the soundboard is simply too old? Is the soundboard likely to be a problem for the rebuilt Bechstein that Guy noticed in Cheltenham do you think?

Thanks for the recommendations of where else to look Barrie. I tried to contact Jeff Shackell this morning and I'm hopeful of being able to speak to him soon. We will certainly head down to Cheltenham too. The two dealers we looked at in Oxford were Roberts and Courtney, I don't suppose you know anything of their reputations do you?

I hope this flurry of posts doesn't give the impression that we're hurrying in to this... I suspect it's a function of the steep learning curve which you are (very kindly!) helping us climb.

Many thanks, best wishes,
Michael

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 27 Oct 2005, 23:49

Michael R wrote: You both seem pretty doubtful of the Bechsteins. Would you mind explaining what is meant by "tyed action" and "costa springs" and how we would be able to tell the difference? Or is that ultimately irrelevant if you think the soundboard is simply too old? Is the soundboard likely to be a problem for the rebuilt Bechstein that Guy noticed in Cheltenham do you think?

Thanks for the recommendations of where else to look Barrie. I tried to contact Jeff Shackell this morning and I'm hopeful of being able to speak to him soon. We will certainly head down to Cheltenham too. The two dealers we looked at in Oxford were Roberts and Courtney, I don't suppose you know anything of their reputations do you?

I've never seen the Bechstein IV in Cheltenham except in the photo on the website! Barrie may know more about the Cheltenham dealer than I do. All I know about them is positive feedback (incidentally about a rebuilt Bechstein!) from a former poster on this forum when he visited them in search of a new piano and a client of mine thought it worth travelling to see them to procure a new Welmar (which she adores) from their run-out stock. If Bluthners were complementary about their work then that bodes well, since they were the pioneers of soundboard replacement in the UK at their former Perivale factory. Definitely worth sounding them out if the Model IV lights your candle.

Nothing against older Bechsteins provided that they're rebuilt completely by expert technicians. I would avoid any older piano (especially a Model IV) that is still on its original plank unless you know it's service history and you can get a testimonial from the current tuner that the pins are tight and even. Old Bechsteins are ten a penny and far less rare than you might think, so bear in mind that many have at some point been unloved, bought in a dreadful state for mere coppers, and revived by 'specialists' who will try to impart an air of exclusivity to the marque. In reality, many Bechstein uprights were just average pianos and were beaten hands down in quality by the likes of Chappell and Challen in the 1920s and '30s. Find a just-pre-war Model 8 however, and that's a different kettle of fish. That was quality.

The tied action on early Bechsteins is only an issue for the technician, not the player, but basically it's a construction where every lever in the action is connected by means of a wooden clip to it's key. It makes routine removal a total P.I.T.A.

Can't comment on the standard of work from those firms. Get your tuner to accompany you, and let him tell you what he thinks.

As far as I know, Shackell Pianos have a spotless reputation for quality which does not come cheap and are exclusively Steinway and Yamaha, so you're unlikely to find a Bechstein. You might find a Z if you're unlucky, or a V or K if you are lucky!!

Guy

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 28 Oct 2005, 01:03

Michael R wrote: You both seem pretty doubtful of the Bechsteins. Would you mind explaining what is meant by "tyed action" and "costa springs" and how we would be able to tell the difference? Or is that ultimately irrelevant if you think the soundboard is simply too old? Is the soundboard likely to be a problem for the rebuilt Bechstein that Guy noticed in Cheltenham do you think?
Michael

It’s not that I am doubtful about Bechsteins they can be restored into very nice pianos that they once was. costa springs when done correctly can increase the repetition quite a lot not all tuners like them and some do remove them and put a slap rail in, just like all the other makes have. However, any piano that has a soundboard that is 70+ years old has to be viewed with an air of caution since you are buying for life will a pianos soundboard of that age last 20 30 years. I have seen pianos with 120 year soundboard that were wonderful but they are the exception rather than the rule

On older pianos take note of the sixth octave area that is were faults in the soundboard show first on uprights

By the sound of your posts, you would like a piano that has a worm sound; yet can fill the room when played hard but not sound harsh a Yamaha will not give you that sound unless you get the hand finished and that is because they use the same felt that is used on more expensive pianos and better quality strings but…….. not quite there . The 1960 Yamaha did have a softer tone but you do have the seasoned for destination problem with pre 70s pianos.

You will be looking to spend 5 to 10 to get what you want in a used piano and it could take time of course the best time to look is in August as you can screw down dealer on a better price as sales are slow

As to the quality of any workshop they are only as good as there last job so as Pianoguy says get a good tuner to give the piano the once over

Barrie,

scottjr · Post by **scottjr** » 28 Oct 2005, 17:29

I visited Cheltenham looking for a Welmar with my son who likes Yamahas. We did not buy a Welmar but were very taken with the Bechstein. It was the best piano in the shop and from a peep inside it looked as if the piano had been rebuilt. The action looked like a new one. I do not know whether it was however. In the event we bought a new Bechstein Classic 118 at at about 1k pound more than the 1889 Bechstein. My son is pleased with it. Ideally he would have preferred a Steinway as he plays the new Steinway in the Pump Room, Bath. I could not afford his dreams!

scottjr · Post by **scottjr** » 28 Oct 2005, 17:43

I did not buy my Bechstein on the internet but tried it first at the dealer where I purchased it. However have a look at http://www.soundsmusical.com/product.asp?ID=4823
where there is a 118 at a good price.

Michael R · Post by **Michael R** » 31 Oct 2005, 21:51

Thanks folks. Yes, we're also coming to the conclusion that the sound we're looking for and our budget aren't in synch...

Not sure what we'll be able to do about that!

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 01 Nov 2005, 20:27

scottjr wrote:I did not buy my Bechstein on the internet but tried it first at the dealer where I purchased it. However have a look at http://www.soundsmusical.com/product.asp?ID=4823
where there is a 118 at a good price.

The problem with SM is they don’t stock most of the pianos they have on the website they just order them so you have to buy it to get them to order it, not good if you want to try before you buy as you did

Barrie,

Michael R · Post by **Michael R** » 01 Nov 2005, 21:50

Right. We certainly would not buy before having a played the piano - or for that matter buy a piano in order to have it restored. There's just no way of knowing what it's going to sound and feel like.

We're widening our search now and hope to meet up with Jeffrey Shackell quite shortly. We keep scouring the net for Model Ks and Vs; we're also looking for Yamaha SU7s but they seem even rarer secondhand than the Steinways...

I think it's now a question of waiting patiently to see what the market offers up.

Thank you all again for your help.

Best wishes,
Michael

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 01 Nov 2005, 22:31

You'll have more luck in finding its predecessor, the SU131, or the smaller SU118.

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 01 Nov 2005, 22:32

Michael R wrote:
We're widening our search now and hope to meet up with Jeffrey Shackell quite shortly. We keep scouring the net for Model Ks and Vs; we're also looking for Yamaha SU7s but they seem even rarer secondhand than the Steinways..

The Yamaha SU7 has not been out for long and the new ones are hard to get hold because of the big discounters selling them as soon as they get them and asking for more

Barrie,

Michael R · Post by **Michael R** » 15 Nov 2005, 22:03

After a work-enforced break we've returned to the search.

We had an excellent morning with Jeffrey Shackell - an absolute gentleman with some truly beautiful grand pianos. We didn't get on with the New York Model K he had in stock, but he had a new U3S he'd prepared for us which we found rather beautiful. The sound wasn't the absolute best we'd heard, but was very good in all areas. The action was fantastic, it felt perfectly weighted (to us, I guess); it made us both smile as soon as began playing it!

In terms of all the U3s we've looked at this was in a different league. Perhaps we should accept that we aren't going to find the perfect piano (particularly given budget constraints)...?

We've been recommended to visit Coach House Pianos in Swansea.

Any thoughts on buying new rather than used? I realise we'll lose more money, but that really isn't the point for us. In terms of the piano bedding in, so to speak, is the sound likely to change dramatically?

Best wishes all,
Michael

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 17 Nov 2005, 22:47

He certainly has a good reputation.

The U3-S is probably a better piano than the New York K.

I'd buy it if I were you.

Michael R · Post by **Michael R** » 18 Nov 2005, 15:45

Thanks PianoGuy,

Yes, we're going down to play it again shortly and I expect we'll buy it. We may have time to visit Coach House Pianos first. The guy there is very keen that we try a new Eisenberg (sp?) that he has in stock that he's willing to sell us for U3 money. I can't find out a great deal about Eisenbergs on the web, do you know much of them? Barrie? I'm also keen to try the Steingraebers that he has, though that's purely window shopping!

Best wishes,
Michael

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 18 Nov 2005, 19:43

I would go with Pianoguy and fo for the U3 there comes a time when you have to stop looking and bite the bullet given budget constraints looking at top of the rage pianos is nice but can make you unduly disappointed with piano in your budget range.

The Eisenberg could be nice but if you intend to upgrade later on then it is better to go with a know make

Barrie,

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 18 Nov 2005, 20:53

Eisenberg, schmeisenberg.

See my comment re Forster for my opinion!

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 19 Nov 2005, 11:58

In fact, to paraphrase:

"I have yet to see a new Eisenberg, but my judgement will no doubt be clouded by memories of them being crap East German crates, the Export versions of which (if you were lucky) were equipped with a hastily installed Renner action fitted with fuzzy-felt Bolshevik hammers. If you weren't so lucky, and with an Eisenberg you generally fell into this category, they came with a revolting Pianic action complete with inferior plastic components which were no doubt by-products of some secret Communist Chemical warfare experiment. I doubt that they're that bad these days, but in Europe at least, they're still trying to shake off the grim commie image.

A bit like Zimmermann. Now built by Bechstein and no doubt quite respectable, they still recall memories of cheap and not-so-cheerfulness. I'd be surprised if more than thirty are sold per annum in the UK. Probably popular amongst Right-Wing Ostalgics in Chemnitz and Jena who recall the brave era of the 'Democratic' Republic when cars were cardboard, so you relied on the trains.... Which of course always ran on time. "

PG

Michael R · Post by **Michael R** » 19 Nov 2005, 13:12

Ha ha!

That's certainly one of the most politically and sociologically rich polemics regarding a piano I've seen - though I take your point!

You don't think they may become the Skodas of the piano industry then? (Not that I for one would be likely to be an 'early adopter' of the new pretender

)

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 19 Nov 2005, 13:32

Michael R wrote:Ha ha!

You don't think they may become the Skodas of the piano industry then? (Not that I for one would be likely to be an 'early adopter' of the new pretender )

They might.........

.....but are you prepared to take the risk? !

PG

Michael R · Post by **Michael R** » 19 Nov 2005, 14:15

PianoGuy wrote:They might.........

.....but are you prepared to take the risk? !

PG

I don't think so! Though I think Coach House Pianos operate a buy-back and trade-up scheme in the 10 years following purchase - you'd have to remember to sell it back just before the timelimit or get badly stung!

I think you and Barrie are right about trying pianos beyond budget... that way disappointment lies...

Michael

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 20 Nov 2005, 18:10

Michael R wrote:Though I think Coach House Pianos operate a buy-back and trade-up scheme in the 10 years following purchase -

But that means you're tied to one dealer for a decent trade-in, so if you spot your ideal piano in another dealer's showroom in ten years' time, you're stuffed with a crappy genuine p/x value if you've bought a no-namer.

A Yamaha U3 is like Swiss Francs or US dollars. Good anywhere. The Eisenberg is OK if you find someone dealing in Ostmarks or Zloty.

PG

diddy · Post by **diddy** » 07 Dec 2005, 13:11

thanks for the great info guys

Michael R · Post by **Michael R** » 07 Dec 2005, 16:36

Celebration!

We've bought the U3S from Jeff Shackell. He very kindly moved it to his home so we could play it in an environment more like our own. We still really enjoyed playing it. Hopefully it will be with us shortly!

Thank you everyone, particularly Guy and Barrie, for your help in our search.

Can't wait 'till it arrives!

Best wishes everyone,
Michael

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 07 Dec 2005, 20:15

Top piano from a spotless dealer.
You'll love it!

Guy

Michael R · Post by **Michael R** » 27 Mar 2007, 10:42

Hi everyone. I just wanted to let people know how we've got on with our Jeffrey Shackell U3 now that we've had it for a year. In a word: fantastic!

We're absolutely delighted with the piano - it still makes us smile everytime we play it. Jeffrey gives it a first-class tuning, though it must be said it held on to its tuning very well anyway.

Only possible downside: it's an extremely powerful piano so pieces exploring the forte range can be a little tricky in our terraced house; but that's our problem not the piano's problem.

Thank you again for everyone's help last year. We would certainly recommend our piano and Jeffrey Shackell. He's not the cheapest in the world, but I think you get what you pay for.

All the best,
Michael

salman · Post by **salman** » 11 May 2007, 12:41

Hi, This post is very informative, however I would like some specific information. If someone can help me then please send me a private message. Best Regards,

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Yamaha UX versus Steniway Model Z

Yamaha UX versus Steniway Model Z

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