Yamaha C3 niggles!

helmllwyn · Post by **helmllwyn** » 13 Sep 2005, 12:57

Oh dear,
I may have done the wrong thing,and I am going to have to eat humble pie!. Right ,the new C3 arrived last week,and it is a very nice piano,BUT . . it does not have that singing tone I have been looking for,and short of going out and buying a Bluthner or Bosendorfer,which I can't afford, I am at a loss as to what to do. I have been offered an S4 for a brilliant price in exchange if I want to go down the Yamaha route,but I am wondering if it is the Yamaha sound in general that is bugging me. After a week the piano is starting to get "tiring" to my ears, unlike the lovely Seiler,which has now gone back, and which I decided against for other reasons.
I am wondering if anyone has got or played a new Estonia?, as I have read good things on U.S forums about the 190 version of this piano, (most recent build quality alledgedly being much better than previous years), and I could probably get one of these without too much more financial outlay. But I would like some feedback from the knowledgable members of the forum before I end up making another mistake!!

Thanks Guys

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 13 Sep 2005, 15:38

First of all the C range and the S range are completely different beasts you mite say they are two different makes there is that much difference in them

Have a look at Schimmel pianos they are close to Seiler the S4 do have a rich bass and close to that Bell like sound in the treble you get with high end pianos rather that the bright sound you get with the C range you could go for a second-hand Bluthner form Bluthner or a Iimler Pro range form Bluthner at 14,500

Zimmermann 190 Grand’s are nice about 21,900

*The Estonias have come a long way in quality and with quite a bit of prepping they become a nice piano but not even close to the likes of Schimmel, Seiler or S4

You need to be sitting at the piano for 2 – 4 hours and a few visits to the show room before making your mind up when you are spending that sort of money

* This is form a tuner I know in the US who worked on them a lot

Barrie,

Stuart · Post by **Stuart** » 13 Sep 2005, 17:23

I hope I am not being unduly pessimistic but......
I bought an 'Estonia' 9' concert grand around 12 years' back, under the name of Otto Steiner. (Thought it was German. Sad) Quite happy with it until I had to move/downsize. Couldn't sell it. Eventually went to auction for £3,000, even though Steinway UK MD valued it at £12,000, hence my current Danemann.

If you are happy with the sound and never move to a smaller house, fine. Otherwise, a large piano needs a large name, I think.

helmllwyn · Post by **helmllwyn** » 13 Sep 2005, 18:19

Thanks Stuart,
some people in the States absolutely rave about these pianos, so perhaps you should have put yours on an American web-site!, hope you aree happy with the Danemann now. I appreciated your input,

Elizabeth

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 13 Sep 2005, 18:47

Hold on there!!

Don't do anything rash!

You have a C3... The best piano available to you at your price point. You've done the right thing.

Firstly, you liked the C3 in the showroom, so ask yourself exactly what has changed. Is it the exact piano you played, or did you order a similar one without trying it? If so, that was silly. If it is the one you tried, I would suggest that you find yourself a tame technician (get some recommendations from trustworthy sources if you don't know of one) and get him/her to voice the piano exactly as you like it. Better still, get the dealer's tech to do it for free.

Personally, I don't think you've given it a chance. You need to live with it for a bit, and then ... and *only* then have it voiced if you think it's lacking.

An S4 is indeed a different animal. I've never met one I liked much.

There was an Otto Steiner 9' on eBay last week btw. It looked decidedly dodgy and failed to attract any bids. Stuart is dead right. I've known an Estonia 9' fettled by a Steinway tech which sounded great.... It was still worthless though. Only Steinways fetch the cash at 9' in length, and then only recent-ish ones.

Take heart!...
You're just having doubts 'cos you've spent lots of cash. It's a natural reaction.

PGxx

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 13 Sep 2005, 19:04

Barrie Heaton wrote:
*The Estonias have come a long way in quality and with quite a bit of prepping they become a nice piano but not even close to the likes of Schimmel, Seiler or S4

* This is form a tuner I know in the US who worked on them a lot

Barrie,

After years of working on US Spinets, an Estonia must seem like a flippin' Steinway!

helmllwyn · Post by **helmllwyn** » 13 Sep 2005, 19:45

Hi there PianoGuy, I was hoping that you would post your view here. I know ,I know, I am panicking, and yes ,it was a lot of cash to part with, so I want to make the best choice I can. The C3 is the same one I tried in the showroom,and I can't remember feeling that the sustain was lacking then. It is now in a big room on a hardwood floor,so if anything should be even more resonant,and I can't understand why it's not. The dampers seem to be brushing the strings too when I depress the pedal,giving a kind of "whooshing"noise when raised again, which is audible when playing quietly (best I can descibe it,sorry!), but it is more the difficulty in keeping a legato line that is bothering me more. Funnily enough I gave a concert on Sunday night on a 5 yr old C3, and that was fine,though brighter than mine. Piano techs are non existent in this part of the country,so I have had to phone a chap from Dorset!,who is coming on 29th September,which in my current state of panic is a long time away!. Just a question, what don't you like about the S4?
I take heart from your comments! Elizabeth x

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 13 Sep 2005, 20:02

helmllwyn wrote: Just a question, what don't you like about the S4?

It's more that I hate tuning them, so I'm biased against them. In fairness they're OK to play, but I don't see the point of the cash outlay over the C3. The S6 on the other hand I rather like, yet I don't like the C6 much, preferring the C5 and C7. Every S4 I've encountered has been unstable in pitch compared to a C3 and indistinct to tune. They always seem to need a pitch raise each time they're tuned, yet a C3 and C5 is nearly always smack on pitch between six monthly tunings. I think the S4 is uncharacteristically waffley for a Yamaha product.

You may be getting standing waves in your room, so move the piano's position. Also get someone else to play it and listen. Does it sound good when you're not sitting on top of it? Try standing the piano on a woollen rug so the wooden floor doesn't reflect the waves directed at it by the soundboard. Experiment with it a bit!

Good luck!

PG

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 13 Sep 2005, 20:55

PianoGuy wrote:They always seem to need a pitch raise each time they're tuned, yet a C3 and C5 is nearly always smack on pitch between six monthly tunings. I think the S4 is uncharacteristically waffley for a Yamaha product.

PG

Different soundboard technology the S4 S6 and CIII….. have a more flexible soundboards (thinner at the edge )so are more susceptible to humidity change. Well that is what I was told.....!

Barrie,

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 13 Sep 2005, 21:36

helmllwyn wrote:The C3 is the same one I tried in the showroom,and I can't remember feeling that the sustain was lacking then. It is now in a big room on a hardwood floor,so if anything should be even more resonant,and I can't understand why it's not.

I must say out of the 4 C3 on the shop floor at the time you came you did pick the one with the softest treble but the quite a fuller bass compared to the others which have all now been sold BTW I suspect having played the Seiler with the very powerful treble and softer bass in your room you are feeling that the C3 is not carrying as well, it will be. It is just that you now hear the Bass more on the C3 as PianoGuy said get some one else to thrash it and you sit away form the piano, you will see what a nice piano you have

Barrie,

helmllwyn · Post by **helmllwyn** » 14 Sep 2005, 01:10

O.K, you are all wonderful on this forum. and I am just an "idiot savant" * picking your brains!. Right then, Barrie......I did pick the sweetest sounding Yamaha in the room on the day that I went,but I did not spend very long as H.(bless him ) was encouraging me to demonstrate lots of other pianos he had in that day, and I think that I went through the lot!. I know that I have a nice piano,but I feel that with a little more outlay I can have an even nicer piano, plus the fact that I am missing the Seiler!. What a glorious treble tone that has!. What are the chances of a new Seiler having the same tone, or is it the case of a certain piano being "special"?
O.K I've got to decide tomorrow between a new S4 or a Bosendorfer 200 (1996), a new Seiler, or new Bluthner 6(if I can afford it). Hmmmmmm???

P.S.** they thought I was an idiot savant . . then they discovered I was just an idiot ! ! ! !

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 14 Sep 2005, 16:55

Some folk are like children in a sweet factory with all them pianos at MB The next one at you are looking at 15 -20K you need to stay focus as this one will be with you for a long time hopefully . What I normally tell my clients is take 3 pieces of music one you love one you hate and one you find difficult to play on your own piano, play them in the same order with the one you love to play first – the first one will tell you if the piano has a chance when you have just one piano then play the piece that you find difficult if the seems less of a problem then play the one you hate playing if the one you hate playing is not so much of a drudge then that is possibly the one for you. Take note of it (*including the Serial number) go away have a cup of tea or what ever then come back after an hour and play that piano for 1 - 2 hours if after that you have anything that you are not happy with put your cheque book back in your bag and go home and look for some more pianos to try.

As to the Seiler yes that one is a bit of a one off but I have seen them just as powerful

Barrie,

- I have been to pianos that some retailers have given them one out of the back and not the one on the shop floor they played it’s one of my pet hates with some retailers

helmllwyn · Post by **helmllwyn** » 17 Sep 2005, 02:03

O.K I've now had time to think and I have come to the conclusion that I was wrong to go down the Asian piano route, not because of anything inherently wrong with these pianos (in fact they are superbly built), but simply on aural preference.At the end of the day the choice comes down to:
1. do I like how it sounds?
2. do I like how it feels?
3. do I like how it looks?

and fundamentally: could I live with this piano for the next 25 years? (essentially the most important question.)

So I have now decided to return the C3 and re-think my options. I will keep you posted on what happens next?!.

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 17 Sep 2005, 07:39

helmllwyn wrote:O.K I've now had time to think and I have come to the conclusion that I was wrong to go down the Asian piano route, not because of anything inherently wrong with these pianos (in fact they are superbly built), but simply on aural preference.At the end of the day the choice comes down to:
1. do I like how it sounds?
2. do I like how it feels?
3. do I like how it looks?

and fundamentally: could I live with this piano for the next 25 years? (essentially the most important question.)

So I have now decided to return the C3 and re-think my options. I will keep you posted on what happens next?!.

Hang on a mo ?!?

Whatever happened to the

I only went for a new instrument because I am intending to upgrade it in 2/3 years time.

plan?

The C3 is the perfect piano to use until you can afford the ultimate.... and some people actually end up keeping them!

It's a piano Alfa Romeo or Golf GTi. All Alfa owners aspire to a Ferrari and all GTi owners to a Porsche, but they can't afford one, so what they have is a good usable stop-gap with some of the traits of their ultimate; in the case of the Alfa, they will have Ferrari red paint and dodgy electrics, and in the Golf, dependable build quality and Teutonic smugness.

I have a feeling that you won't be satisfied until you get your Bösendorfer. The Yamaha is not very similar, but if bought cheaply enough it's a sensible and tradeable stop-gap until you do. Buy a Seiler and just try selling it on in 5 years' time. You'll be stuck with it for life and not just for Christmas.

The S4 is actually a tiny bit more Bösendorfer-like in practice, but depreciation is the key thing here. Few people will pay handbuilt prices for a second-hand piano with a mass-market badge. It has none of the traditional Yamaha sonic accuracy, but an ersatz-Euro illusion of tone; they have a very false treble which must therefore be modelled on a Bechstein.

I tuned one of the three I visit (all too) regularly yesterday, and I still hate it, but at least the gorgeous Yamaha action redeems it a bit.

So what happened to the 2/3 year plan then?

PG

helmllwyn · Post by **helmllwyn** » 17 Sep 2005, 23:28

Sorry to disappoint you PianoGuy,and I really did do as you said and tried the piano in different positions,(the lotus made pedalling difficult

) ,
This whole experience has been educational,and I know that it was my impatience to get a new piano without finding out what I really liked that has been largely to blame. You are also more than likely right to say that I won't be happy until I get my Bosendorfer, but it may not be that piano either. One thing is certain,I will be trying out a varied range of pianos in the next few weeks,and hey,I may end up buying a Yamaha!, but this one is not the one. I know that I intended to upgrade,but I couldn't have lived with this for two weeks never mind two years!.
Thanks for your advice, I will update you on what I've auditioned , I don't even know what I will end up with, but whatever it is, this time I will be sure before I part with the cash!,

chriswarren · Post by **chriswarren** » 23 Sep 2005, 23:36

Hi helmllwyn,

When I was looking for a piano I was dead set on a C3. Then I visited one shop and the dealer said "They sound great initially, but play it for a couple of hours and you'll be bored with it"....I thought this was just sales spiel, but I did just that and had to admit that after a while, the tone started to grate.

Eventually I bought a Kawai RX3 and certainly have never looked back. Even different Asians can be different animals.

helmllwyn · Post by **helmllwyn** » 24 Sep 2005, 00:17

Thanks Chris,
yes, it is a very even,but ultimately boring sound. If you are playing the piano for up to four hours a day,as I am, it really can get on your nerves. Previously I had only played Yamahas at some concert venues,and was usually relieved that the instrument in front of me wasn't a total "crock"!,but I did not play them for enough time to realise that they were not for me. I have never played an RX3, but will certainly put them on my list to audition over the next few weeks.BTW,I think I have found my perfect piano. . . it is just a question of getting it at the right price!. . . . and ,No! . . . it is NOT a Bosendorfer, Wow!,who would have thought?!

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 24 Sep 2005, 12:27

I am very impressed with the recent RX series in spite of my Yamaha leanings. I've not yet seen the latest carbon ABS version which is supposed to be even better... and Kawai seem to be learning about the virtues of a consolidated model range. Beware of current depreciation, although that may well be improving too. Comments here: http://www.uk-piano.org/piano-forums/vi ... php?t=2203

Having now established that your piano will be for life and not just for Christmas, try a Bluthner model 6 and if you can, a Steingraeber for a Bosendorfer-on-a-budget* kind of sound!! I think they're imported by the same company. Barrie?

Regards,

PG

*well.... Sort of a large-ish budget

helmllwyn · Post by **helmllwyn** » 24 Sep 2005, 12:57

PianoGuy,
You must be absolutely psychic!. How did you know that my "dream" piano would turn out to be a Steingraeber?!

I played a 205 last week and was absolutely blown away by it, but the price tag was hefty. I am going to try the Stubby shaped 168 next week to see how different they are in sound. The 205 sounded like a full concert grand, amazing. . . this is the piano for me. Thanks for your post,I thought I might have driven you away with my dithering!

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 24 Sep 2005, 13:16

Just a wild guess.

I know them more by reputation than experience of them, but have two clients who both emigrated one to the US, one to Canada who owned Steingraebers a few years back. They waxed lyrical about them; they were certainly unusual. Build quality was most impressive, but I've lost touch as my tuning round doesn't extend to the New World.

The 205 has a vast soundboard compared to most similar sized pianos, achieved by making the 'short' side longer than usual. This could well be why you like it. The 168 appears conventional, and I can see nothing special about it from their bizarrely multi-lingual catalogue.

Er.... Why did you go for a C3 in the first place? I can't think of two pianos more poles apart than a Steingraeber and a C3 !!!

helmllwyn · Post by **helmllwyn** » 24 Sep 2005, 14:29

Money!. . . . . or ,more accurately, the lack of it!

. I thought that I would be happy with the C3 until I had saved enough to get the piano I really wanted, but it was not to be. Will have to look at some creative accounting options ?! if I am going to go for the Steingraeber right now. But I will most likely have to wait a little while.No point looking any more, I just loved that sound. . . a REAL piano sound, (at least to my ears).

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 24 Sep 2005, 14:31

PianoGuy wrote:Having now established that your piano will be for life and not just for Christmas, try a Bluthner model 6 and if you can, a Steingraeber for a Bosendorfer-on-a-budget* kind of sound!! I think they're imported by the same company. Barrie?

Regards,

PG

*well.... Sort of a large-ish budget

Never seen one, don’t even know any dealers who stock them would like to see one the website is here
http://www.steingraeber.de/

Barrie,

helmllwyn · Post by **helmllwyn** » 25 Sep 2005, 11:33

Bristol piano company has the 205 that I loved,but with a very high ticket price on it,and wouldn't come down from that, (wonderful piano!), ..and yes ,I did go down there. . . 10hour round trip!. Also Hurstwood Farm Piano Studios in kent stock them www.hurstwoodfarmpianos.co.uk. Richard Dain down there knows almost everything there is to know about pianos,and is very helpful. Steingraeber are introducing a new knuckle-roller action on their pianos and you will be able to choose between the standard or the new knuckle from November.. . .about 500 pounds difference between the two. The other place that can get them,but they will send you to Bayreuth first to choose it!,is Coach House pianos in Swansea. They don't have a web-site,as they are a Christian family and don't believe in the internet,. . . hence I had never heard of them. They do have a 168 in at the moment, but it has been ordered for someone.
The average price for the 205 is around 29000 pounds,and the 168,around 24000 pounds,depending on finish etc.
The burning question is. . . . if I don't manage to raise the dosh for this piano right now,what piano am I going to be able to live with in the interim???!Hmmmmm

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 25 Sep 2005, 12:46

You're not in Yamaha Discount territory now y'know!

With such a scarce supply I can't see why anybody should discount Steingraebers or Bosendorfers!

PG

helmllwyn · Post by **helmllwyn** » 25 Sep 2005, 12:57

Yeh, I know. But how do you explain a 10500 pound price difference between Bristol Piano Company and both Hurstwood Farm and Coach house,who both have it at 29000 ?!

!!!

Post by **Gill the Piano** » 25 Sep 2005, 13:26

ASK them!

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 25 Sep 2005, 18:53

Yes, ask them.

I for one would be interested to know.

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 25 Sep 2005, 20:17

helmllwyn wrote:Yeh, I know. But how do you explain a 10500 pound price difference between Bristol Piano Company and both Hurstwood Farm and Coach house,who both have it at 29000 ?! !!!

BPC is probably selling at RRP and the other are discounting not on the scale of the Yamahas and I don’t think you will see the level of 35% like you do with some Yamaha retailers as the sales are just not there at that price level

Do Ask

Barrie,

helmllwyn · Post by **helmllwyn** » 25 Sep 2005, 21:28

It turns out that some piano dealers,mentioning no names,do not fully own the pianos on their shop floor!. They are owned by a finance company,rather like some car-dealerships,and consequently I have been told that there is "no margin for negotiation". the finance company tell the dealer not to discuss price with any prospective purchaser,unless they are going to pay full RRP. Seems like a scam to me,and I didn't want to know.Sorry to be a bit cryptic. Coach House do own both their buildings and their pianos,so are at liberty to dicuss and give discounts. They also guarantee to buy back any piano bought from them at the price you paid for it,if exchanged for a higher priced piano e.g Steinway or Steingraeber.

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 25 Sep 2005, 22:24

helmllwyn wrote:It turns out that some piano dealers,mentioning no names,do not fully own the pianos on their shop floor!. They are owned by a finance company,rather like some car-dealerships,and consequently I have been told that there is "no margin for negotiation". the finance company tell the dealer not to discuss price with any prospective purchaser,unless they are going to pay full RRP. Seems like a scam to me,and I didn't want to know.

But how do you intend buying your piano?

Most people buying at this price level are either rich or take out finance to buy. In my experience, piano companies so deeply religious not to use the internet think credit is a dirty word! If you're not paying cash, you'll have to finance it through a bank, so make sure that you're not saddled with an APR which nullifies the discount!

What you are saying is actually a bit wrong. The biggest musical instrument finance company in the UK owns more pianos than you'll ever know about including many Yamahas which are viciously discounted, so there is actually much margin for negotiation. The finance company has actually gone out and bought the pianos that they own. All of them. With their own money. In my experience, the terms that they offer their dealers and customers on these expensive instruments are superb, and are directly based on the residual value of the piano in question.

With the greatest respect for Coach house Pianos (who I know from first hand experience to be a very reputable company) it is easy for them to quote low prices on a piano that they've no intention of buying from the manufacturer with their money until it's been ordered by you the customer!

helmllwyn · Post by **helmllwyn** » 26 Sep 2005, 02:01

Thanks for your reply Piano Guy. O.K I know you know a lot more than I do about "the Business". I am not disputing that. All I ever set out to do is find a piano that I would be happy to play for the next couple of years until I could get my "dream"piano,which has turned out to be a Steingraeber. I will admit that I have NEVER bought a piano for myself before,. . . and I am 40+!. My first piano was bought for me by my Father, the second I won in a Shell/Esso young musician competition, and now I am looking for the Third. In a way I am totally clueless about the mechanics of shopping for a piano, BUT I am a good pianist,I have a very good ear(even two of them!)and I know a good piano when I hear it. I am not your average amateur pianist. In joining this forum I was hoping for good un-biased advice,and I have got it ,but just let me tell you that the deal I was offered on a 24000 piano was 7500 deposit plus 120 payments of 414 pounds a month!!. This from a major player in instrument finance. It would have amounted to over 57000 pounds over 11 years!. If you know of a finance company which can do a better deal than this please let me know ,because I think this is an absolute con! It is a very sad fact of life these days that professional musicians cannot afford the best instruments, they are reserved forCompany Directors,Retired Businessmen,and Football players.

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 26 Sep 2005, 08:04

helmllwyn wrote:If you know of a finance company which can do a better deal than this please let me know ,because I think this is an absolute con! It is a very sad fact of life these days that professional musicians cannot afford the best instruments, they are reserved forCompany Directors,Retired Businessmen,and Football players.

I'll work on the first point for you.

As for the final point, was it not ever thus?!

scottjr · Post by **scottjr** » 26 Sep 2005, 12:54

I am buying my Bechstein with a loan from Moneyback Bank (part of Alliance & Leicester) over 12 months at 5.6%. I put in £16500 on their website and a loan of this spread over 5 years would cost £378.43 per month for 60 months (a total repayment of £22706) making you piano at £24000 cash £30206 over 5 years. This sounds a better deal for you.

scottjr · Post by **scottjr** » 26 Sep 2005, 12:57

PS
http://www.moneybackbank.co.uk/loans/in ... l54&exp=30

helmllwyn · Post by **helmllwyn** » 26 Sep 2005, 13:31

Thank you James, that seems much more reasonable. I am spending the day looking at options, and will follow up on your information. Of course I shall also be buying a lottery ticket for Saturday!. I wonder if there are any finance guys out here who can contribute to this forum, and help us out? (out of the goodness of their hearts!).
Enjoy your Bechstein,. . . . lovely piano.
Elizabeth

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 26 Sep 2005, 13:58

I would suspect then that you approached the sale in the wrong way.

If you visited the dealer and told them that you intended to take out finance for the piano, they would have based their calculations on the RRP, and offered you their own finance package..... Interest rates will never be as keen as a bank's. Especially over 11 years! That's not a loan, that's a mortgage!

If you had simply approached them and asked for their best price on the piano and financed it elsewhere, you would have been quoted a keen price akin to that at Coachhouse or Hurstwood.

You've found the piano you want. Find out the CASH price, not for some stupid extended finance period. Phone 'em anonymously if you need to! Arrange the best loan that you can elsewhere, and nab it before someone else with hard cash beats you to it.

As a rule, banks offer money cheaper than piano dealers, and you wouldn't go to a bank for a piano.

helmllwyn · Post by **helmllwyn** » 26 Sep 2005, 15:00

thanks PianoGuy, I'm learning!,I'm learning!

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 26 Sep 2005, 16:29

You also have Markson Pianos they sell Steingraeber & Soehne and are the main UK agent if you go there you could visit Bluthner and look at some of the restored Bluthners.

Markson Pianos
8, Chester Court
Albany Street
London NW1 4 BU
Tel: 0207 9358682

Barrie,

Post by **Gill the Piano** » 26 Sep 2005, 17:50

Can you get an extension on your mortgage, or would that be going from bad to worse?

helmllwyn · Post by **helmllwyn** » 26 Sep 2005, 22:04

That's one of the options I'm considering,Gill, along with pawning the cat!

Post by **Gill the Piano** » 27 Sep 2005, 15:12

Noooooooooo! Don't do that; have you no kids?

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 27 Sep 2005, 21:09

Cats don't often star in those kinda films. She may make a mint!

Post by **Gill the Piano** » 27 Sep 2005, 23:48

We bow to your superior knowledge on the subject of that kind of film, o great one...

helmllwyn · Post by **helmllwyn** » 28 Sep 2005, 21:19

Gill, are you suggesting I might get more for the kids !. . . . good thinking.

Piano Guy, wash your hard drive out with soap and water, It never even crossed my mind!, thanks for the vote of confidence though

Steve071261 · Post by **Steve071261** » 01 Oct 2005, 14:54

Hi,

sorry to bring this subject back on-topic, but I've also been considering a Steingraeber, having coresponded with Richard Dain a while back.

Apparently, the 168 has a much wider "back end" (sorry for the technical terminology, there) which allows longer bass strings, so their 1.7m piano has similar length bass strings to, say, a conventional shape 1.8m piano, or so their literature seems to suggest.

Obviously the 205 will be the better piano, but I for one would be MOST interested in your opinion of the 168 as and when you've played it.

cheers,

Steve

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 01 Oct 2005, 15:53

Tha 168 has a peculiarly wide tail, and the 205 an extraordinarily long 'short' side. As a result, the soundboard area of both of these pianos is much greater than would conventionally be the case.

The upside of all this is a far richer sound and greater volume from these pianos than their size should allow. Steingraeber is also a lovely progressive little company who aren't afraid of innovation; their latest uprights are available with an optional magnetically assisted action which is a refinement of the system used by Seiler, and their grands with an optional 'knuckle roller' which may also improve repetition (although having studied how it works, it may also introduce noise) which I have yet to try out for myself.

The downside is the appearance and general design of their grands. The 205 is the least foul of the bunch in the styling stakes. The Concert Grand is squared off like a 1930s bathtub, and the 168 is dimensionally almost square, the ratio of length to width being about 12:11, and as a consequence resembles the worst examples of Art Deco Baby grands, the likes of which have long since fallen from favour with the Piano Buying Public. At least in the UK. I reckon that anybody buying a Steingraeber (and I'm a fan of them, mind!) should be prepared for enormous depreciation, and should be buying for life. The 205 is the most conventional of the range, and even that's no beauty. It does have a purposeful stance I suppose.

In addition, they are a firm of bizarre paradox: They make a Bio-Friendly piano for the Organic-Veg-Driving-2CV-eating pianist, with sustainable woods, non-chemical glues and lacquers; a hypo-allergenic piano for the hyper-sensitive and pianos and stool combinations for wheelchair access and electromagnetic pedal operation for paraplegics. All this should be applauded. However, not to miss out on the Conspicuous Consumer Trash-The-Planet Chelsea-Tractor-Owner end of the market, they also will make to order a piano with a highly non-PC ivory keyboard and finish it in the finest tropical rainforest (probably!!) protected hardwood veneers.... Or so the color chart would have you believe. Very Bling, yo. Hard to know where their loyalties lie really?

Also bear in mind, that the more 'bespoke' your choice, the less that it will appeal to the next potential user, unless you happen to be a Celebrity on the scale of Elton, or in a commune staffed by vegans.

helmllwyn · Post by **helmllwyn** » 03 Oct 2005, 16:54

Steve, I have sent you a private message. Let me know if you don't receive it. Elizabeth

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 23 Oct 2005, 22:22

I'll call you Harry if it'll put a smile on yer face!

PG

helmllwyn · Post by **helmllwyn** » 27 Oct 2005, 00:56

Piano Guy. . . . sometimes you're just . . EVIL!.

Post by **Gill the Piano** » 27 Oct 2005, 19:51

Ar, but we love 'im!

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