Knight + Renner for 4000 pounds - Is this good?

[JohnSmith]

Hello, all.

I'm about to take my grade 8 exam after dabbling for years on the piano (never had lessons as a child) and finally taking piano lessons a couple of years ago.

Following my piano teacher's advice, I'm going for a better piano than my current Danemann! I have found (from a piano technician) a Knight upright, fitted with a Renner action. It is an impressive instrument, with a very full tone, so much so that I find it hard to control, but put this down to my developing technique .

Question is, is the 4000 pound price tag realistic? I've seen a Marshal on the Net, also with Renner action, for less than 2000 pounds. The bottom line is that I want the Knight (even though it's above me), but don't want to pay too much.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
John.

[PianoGuy]

Firstly, if you have a 1960s,70s or early 80s Danemann of 120cm height or above, hold on to it, it'll be a better piano than the Knight. If it's a small Danemann PJ, PJA spinet or a pre-war one, ditch it.

Secondly, the vintage of the Knight is critical. Again, some from the '60s and '70s were lovely, but avoid the 1990s Whelpdale built K-10 and York and the last of the line models from BPMC or whatever they were calling themselves that week. The huge Savoy model (often fitted with a Renner) was a stormer wherever it was built, but watch out for a poor treble which can be overshadowed by that creamy rich bass. Avoid all spinet (low height) models whatever action they are fitted with, and chunky School models in oak cases. Diabolical.

4000 quid seems a bit steep unless it's a Knight Savoy, or a totally as-new perfect unmarked example with a nice warranty.

Additionally: The classic Knight K-10, the design of which gave Mr. Knight his reputation for innovation is still on offer brand-new built by Cheltenham Piano Centre. I've not seen one, but was impressed by a client's Welmar which she bought at a good price (about 4K I think....) from that dealer. Forum member scottjr has been to see a few new Welmars there of which he praised the build quality, but felt they were not for him. Worth checking out what they would charge for a new Knight with a Renner. Bear in mind that if you try to sell the Knight on in the future, you may have more difficulty if it's in a modern style case (slopey top, no pillars and toes) than in a trad style case (such as a Yamaha U1, U3).

Finally, why not try a U1 or U3? A second hand British market U1 is within your budget and is an industry standard piano. A cheap import should cost you no more than 2.5 to 3K, but the UK market one is different in detail and will have better residuals. They can be hard to spot amongst all the asylum seekers, but well worth it. Go for a late 1980s one or later with a serial number above 4 million.

P G

[Barrie Heaton]

Additionally: The classic Knight K-10, the design of which gave Mr. Knight his reputation for innovation is still on offer brand-new built by Cheltenham Piano Centre.
P G

If you are going to visit Cheltenham Piano Centre.
http://www.cheltenham-piano-centre.co.uk/ next month is their anniversary and they are going to have some Jaw dropping discount on selected pianos visit the website in September The offer will only be on for one month


Barrie,

[JohnSmith]

Many thanks, Piano Man, for such a detailed reply.

For the record, the Knight is, in fact, a Savoy. So, your comments are encouraging in that regard. The technician offering the piano is also going to regulate and voice it to my requirements, with free delivery and first tuning. Then again, I was aware when I played it of the stark contrast between trebble and bass. Maybe that's what gives me the impression that I can't control it.

I'm not sure of the height of my Danemann, but I do know it's a 1960's model and shall measure it tonight. If it turns out to be around 120cms, then I'm probably in more of a dilemma than at first thought...

Cheers,
John.

[PianoGuy]

No problem.

On balance, I'd definitely consider the Savoy as an improvement over the Danemann, even if it's a good one.

I emailed the people at Cheltenham and it appears that Barry is spot-on and throughout September they're discounting their stock which includes 2 Savoys by 40%. I may even make the journey to see them myself.

PG

[JohnSmith]

Wow! 40% reduction? I need to seriously consider this, especially as I just called my wife to measure the Danemann - it's 115cms.

Cheers,
John.

[PianoGuy]

Sounds like a PJ model to me.

The Savoy can be a truly gorgeous piano. Watch out for a weak treble as mentioned, and a weakness in damping over the break. If you can live with these foibles,and remember that not even a Steinway D is perfect, then you'll live together happily ever after.

[JohnSmith]

Well, this has certainly been a higly productive enquiry, for which I am very grateful - I now have much more peace of mind.

It looks like I'm about to start a beautiful relationship, which should now start to show more in my piano lessons, when I play my teacher's Steinway C!

Thanks again,
John.

[JohnSmith]

Hi, PianoGuy.

Having just written out a cheque for 4000 pounds for a 2001 Knight Savoy, I have now measured my Danemann for myself. From the bottom of the piano to the top is 115cms, as my wife said. But, it measures 120.5 cms from the floor to the top.

Which is the correct measurement? Have I made the right choice (eek)?

In hope,
John.

[PianoGuy]

You'll be fine!

The Savoy will wazz* all over a Danemann of those diminutive dimensions! I think what you have there is a PJA model, which was a bit compromised.
To be sure, check on the iron frame (take the bottom door off) for the letters 'PJA' or 'PJ' cast on the flat bit to the right of the strings about level with the keyboard.

Btw.... another issue with a 2001 Savoy (which will be one of the last WMC-built ones from London) is the crap practice pedal system, which can be finely adjusted between the two settings of:
Getting in the way of the hammers in the raised (off) position and working well in the lowered position.
or:
Clearing the hammers in the raised position but not quietening all of the notes in the lowered (on) position.

But with all that fab power to exploit, you'll not want to use the practice pedal anyway... Why not remove it and ceremonially burn it?

Wahay!!

PG

*wazz (waez) v. Technical term (Yorks.) to urinate.

[JohnSmith]

Phew!!

Hehe - I love your writing style...

Oddly enough, the practice pedal was the one thing that I never tested, thinking it to be the standard spring-loaded celeste rail felt-strip mechanism.

But, as one of the reasons my piano teacher advised me to get a better piano is that I can't properly hear the intervals (particularly when playing fugue - everything sounds a bit clouded), I will, as you say, not want to use the practice pedal anyway.

A ceremonial burning sounds nice. Maybe I'll even invite my Odinist friend!

Once again, many thanks for all your guidance.

Cheers,
John.

[Gill the Piano]

Can I come and watch? I hate those practice pedal things and have trained my customers to refer to them as 'soggy sock' rails, since that's what it sounds like you're playing through. Where are the matches...?

[PianoGuy]

A ceremonial burning sounds nice. Maybe I'll even invite my Odinist friend!

You won't curry favour with any Pagan Deity by burning such rubbish!

The object in question *is* spring-loaded but the geometry is wrong. Sweaty socks will do the job better!



P.Guy

[Geminoz]

scuse my ignorance but what the dickens is a practice pedal...and what is its function?? I have to say I have never had a piano with one.
Obviously they are not in favour with you guys, but I would still like to know...I feel like such an ignoramus on here sometimes You all have so much knowledge it's mind boggling.
I am getting an education and what I love about that is.....it's FREE

[PianoGuy]

It's sometimes called a celeste pedal, and is often fitted as a latching middle pedal to uprights these days. On some pianos it can be operated by a lever, and basically drops a strip of felt between the hammer and srtings so that the hammer strikes through said felt.

If nicely designed as on most Yamahas, Kawais and the like, they can work well, muting the volume level by about 20dB and imparting a soft wooly tone to the piano allowing Junior to practice his scales through the night. If badly designed as an afterthought, such as on many British uprights from the Whelpdale era, they can work through part of the compass, but not other parts. They can also get caught up in hammers.

At their worst, they can effectively widen the contact point of the hammer and muddy the sound by partially striking neighbouring strings.

PG

[Gill the Piano]

...his bill is in the post, Gem!

[Barrie Heaton]

If nicely designed as on most Yamahas, Kawais
PG

I would not say the Kawais or Yamaha one is well or nicely designed they even made the Yamaha one worse when they dropped the wing nut for that over tightened half Philips / chisel screw but at least the one on the 110A is quick to remove

Now a well balanced easy to remove ones are the one fitted in the Young Changs pity their low end pianos are not as well designed


Barrie,

[PianoGuy]

I would not say the Kawais or Yamaha one is well or nicely designed they even made the Yamaha one worse when they dropped the wing nut for that over tightened half Philips / chisel screw but at least the one on the 110A is quick to remove

Now a well balanced easy to remove ones are the one fitted in the Young Changs pity their low end pianos are not as well designed


Barrie,

Good points well made!.... But at least the Yam/Kawai have the correct geometry! I always remove the entire thing on a Yam by unhooking the spring leaving just the upright rod in the piano but the Kawai's Philips screw is a pain.

The W.Hoffmann wooden celeste rail is a delight, and some of the other German efforts using nicely moulded felt washers are good too....

PG

[Gill the Piano]

...and the Schimmel one just folds backwards, level with the hammer rest rail after removing one - normal! - screw.But the Reid-Sohn manual one (that nobody knows is there anyway)...I've lost count of the nails I've broken on that one !

[JohnSmith]

Ah, well! Of course, I haven't yet seen the one on the Knight Savoy, but I'm sure I can process some sweaty socks to modify the geometry! After all, such things are not rocket-science!

BTW, PianoGuy - I've looked where you suggest for the letters 'JP' on the frame of the Danemann, but so far, no evidence. There is a smudgy bit that looks for all the world as though something has been removed! I hope it's not a cut-and-shut...

BTW, BTW, I forgot to mention that, soon after obtaining the Danemann, I had it regulated and the key-depth adjusted to full specification. Hopefully, this means I can sell it at a higher price than normal. It does, after all, mean that the touch is much improved (though, of course, nowhere new the same as the Knight).

Cheers,
John.

[Geminoz]

Thank you PG for your informative reply that's something else I've learned in my dotage.
As for the bill, Gill...it'll have to find me first