German and Japanese actions

[amateur]

After playing and very old Bechstein grand for the last twenty years, I am looking for a new upright which will last the next twenty years or so.
My first aim is (apart from getting more room ) tot get rid of the irregularities of the old Bechstein action ( despite the periodical neccecary regulation).
I tried out several piano's ( the bigger models). Among them Yamaha, Kemble, Kawai, Rönisch and Seiler.
The Japanese (Kemble too of cource) seem to me to play more precise and lighter.
In this respect I am wondering if Yamaha and/or Kawai actions are technically better and last longer without irrigualarity problems than those of Renner ?
Is it true that the stiffnes or sluggishnes that I found in one German piano is due to a brand new action and dissapears after some time ?
Why did I not experience this with the Japanese ?
And is there anything to say about staying in tune; German versus Japanese ?
English is not my native language but I hope I made my point clear.

[PianoGuy]

I tried out several piano's ( the bigger models). Among them Yamaha, Kemble, Kawai, Rönisch and Seiler.
The Japanese (Kemble too of cource) seem to me to play more precise and lighter.
In this respect I am wondering if Yamaha and/or Kawai actions are technically better and last longer without irrigualarity problems than those of Renner ?
Is it true that the stiffnes or sluggishnes that I found in one German piano is due to a brand new action and dissapears after some time ?

Hello Amateur!

The German pianos that you have tried most probably have a Renner action fitted. Renner build excellent action components, but the manner in which ther are fitted to different pianos and the quality of Renner components themselves vary.

Manufacturers of more expensive pianos claim that they select higher quality components from Renner, but the difference in quality between these and the poorer components that they have rejected is not easily detectable on visual inspection. The main problem with all Renner components was their use of a black graphite substance as a lubricant. This would get sticky and sludge-up over a relatively short time and cause some actions to require recentring. This problem even occurred on the most expensive pianos. I haven't witnessed the problem in the most recent Renners, but actions as recent as 10 years old can be afflicted.

I would guess that the Renners used by Seiler would be subject to a more rigorous selection process than the ones used by Rönisch. These in turn would more likely be better than the ones used by the likes of Petrof and the former Eastern Bloc makers and the growing number of Chinese manufacturers boasting Renner equipment on their spec sheets.

The Japanese actions don't carry the same kudos as the Renner, but the action built by Yamaha is one of the most precise and best in the world. The refinement of the version used in the SU range of uprights and in the S range of grands is the most responsive of any action I have played, and yes, they do seem ever so slightly lighter than most Renners. It's interesting that the little German firm of Steingraeber uses a Renner in the basic version of its 130 upright, and a Yamaha action in the 130PS which is billed as an upmarket version with an improved action.

The Kawai action fitted to late models is an ABS plastic construction reinforced with carbon fibre. Called the Millennium III and made with 'ABS Carbon', it looks strange, but is a great performer with stunningly quick repetition at the expense of a slightly 'dead' feeling as the key comes to the bottom of its travel. Earlier wooden Kawai actions were noticeably poorer in quality than their Yamaha rivals, and the intermediate ABS Styran action somewhere in between.

In short, it's far rarer to encounter problems in an older Yamaha action than in a Renner. The Renner is far more variable, but even the best can become sluggish over time. The latest Kawai action is too new to evaluate its long term reliability, but I'd bet on it being at least as good as the Yamaha. Older Kawai actions are not as good.

Finally beware of pianos fitted with the Detoa action. It's a cheap thing from the Czech Republic fitted to many cheaper instruments that you may assume are fitted wih a Renner. This includes most Petrof, Weinbach and some Irmler. At best it's variable, but most are troublesome. Ditto for Tofa-Albrechtice. Best avoided.

[andyaeola]

Excellent post pianoguy

A

[PianoGuy]

[amateur]

Hello PianoGuy,
Thank you very much for your very detailed and helpfull reaction.
The black graphite substance you mentioned is clearly visible on the top of all the jacks and on the rollers of the old Renner action in my Bechstein. I suppose it was (or still is ?) a common lubricant, even used by specialised technicians.
Better to avoid all thus lubricated actions, I suppose ?

[PianoGuy]

No, that's OK. It's a graphite lubricant on the surface of the jack tip. The gunk used by Renner that I was commenting about was actually in the centrepin bushings (birds-eyes).

[Warrenm0]

Hi PianoGuy.

Thanks for all this information.

I'm about to purchase a 1993 67cm Petrof V 3D baby grand in mostly excellent condition (now that the swollen lead weights in the 88 keys have been replaced). Like all Petrof baby grands of the period, it has a Petrof-Detoa action. What should my piano tuner be looking for to make the best of the action?

Regards and thanks,
Warren in Sydney, Australia