Seeking advice New or Used Uprights

[G3och]

Hi Everyone

I am looking for advice on a replacement upright. I recently had a new Feurich 125 but it turned out problematic and really poor quality. I've managed to initiate a refund after 9 months of fighting but now im looking for a more established brand.

Questions i have are.

Do i get a taller mellow upright (130cm) for better bass and longer strings or have a piano brighy voiced down to meet the room? The Feurich was super bright and loud on my hard floor (even with the piano on a carpet off cut), there can be alot of echo in my lounge, i am not sure how to stop this (my neighbour can hear it, they don't mind but i wouldn't like to push my luck even with the celeste rail on post 8pm). I am aware the piano in the showroom could sound massively different once in my house.

Or do i go for a shorter piano and just not enjoy the bass as much.

Silent pianos are they worth it? or is it better to invest more in an acoustic and use my digital as the silent part. I'm assuming silent piano resale will be worse than a normal acoustic in the future due to technological advances and the acoustic is likely to outlive the technology.

What brands are recommended? Budget upto 10k but ive looked at YUS3/K800 as an example online and they look good. No one in Manchester seems to stock a big range of new Yamaha or Kawai though.

How can you tell how good quality a piano is?

How do you know how well a dealer has prepped it? Do any dealers actually voice a piano to a customers liking or is whats on the shop floor what you get.

New or Used, there's a big market for used U3s and U1s and literally nothing for Kawai is this good or bad? Is it worth taking a technician to look at a new piano? I will probably inspecting inside new pianos from now on.

Thanks in advance
George

[chrisw]

I am sorry to learn that your experiences with the Feurich 125 didn't work out. I don't have playing experience on the Yamaha U1/U3 or on any Kawai upright model but I would be concerned that they could produce too much sound. Even my little Kemble upright can produce too many decibels.

Could you consider putting some sound insulating material down the back of the piano ? I have known people use blankets, cushions and pillows to make their pianos less bright, especially for recording purposes.

With respect to voicing a piano prior to delivery I have seen a technician doing this in the big piano shop in the middle of Manchester. However I don't know what would happen if the piano bypassed the shop floor.

If you can make time to travel to Skipton I would recommend visiting Yorkshire Pianos where they they make their own brand of Cavendish uprights and grands. The owner is an experienced piano technician and he prepares his pianos very well prior to delivery, giving them quite a mellow tone. Details are on the Yorkshire Pianos website.

[Barrie Heaton]

I have worked on both YUS3 K800.
I prefer the Yus3 top treble over the K800. but the K800 is far better in the mid-range and Bass

The action on the K800 is lighter than the YUS3 and more responsive.
Hamiltons in Preston have a K400 and K300 I was very impressed with the K400 with the longer keys. They also have a K300 silent piano so you can doa side by side. Comparison.


If you want to ply a K800, you are going to have to travel down south.

Barie

[G3och]

Hi Barie thanks, yep i was looking at K800 i think the nearest was coach house in Swansea. Its a 4 hour to 5 hour drive so i might be knackered by the time i get there.

I was also looking at Cavendish which Chris mentioned earlier. I've actually dropped them an email as well.

Is it better to just play the pianos rather than get bogged down in piano technical specifics?

Is it quite common for people to buy pianos and have them sound completely different in the showroom to their home?

Thanks for the advice.

[chrisw]

Hello George,

Ideally pianos should be chosen because of the way they play, how they sound and the feel of the keys under the fingers. The specification can be used as an aid to judgement. Not always possible, it wasn't in my case, nor in the case of a friend who has just exchanged her piano.

I do come across occasional posts in other forums where people say that a piano sounds differently in the home from the showroom but I take them to be far in the minority, with the majority being satisfied.

[G3och]

Yes i think this was my mistake with the Feurich, looked at the specs and the price too much. I did find the Feurichs did feel quite nice to play but the quality and craftsmanship is very below par (or was on the one i had!)

There are a lot of specs on duplex scaling and agraffes etc, do they really make a difference? Floating soundboards and tapered soundboards.

Is there a way to tell if a piano has actually been prepped very well?

Ill have to go and try some pianos out again, it feels like a really long drawn out process. I do have a few piano stores i don't like due to aggressive sales techniques or suggesting their sponsored brand every 5 minutes. I guess ill have to make a visit.

[Barrie Heaton]

There are a lot of specs on duplex scaling and agraffes etc, do they really make a difference? Floating soundboards and tapered soundboards.

if duplex scaling is set up correct its good but get it a tad out and it makes the top treble sound bad

Agraffes again depends on the quality - I have worked on some cheap pianos where we have had to re-align the agraffes parallel to the bridge and the strings.

Floating soundboards and tapered soundboards. some are just bad copies of well-made pianos one manufacturer actually tunes the soundboards that's an all-day job, but it makes a big difference if done right.

Is there a way to tell if a piano has actually been prepped very well?

very few pianos are prepared well these days cost-cutting to make some cash one of the downsides of the web.

Barrie

[chrisw]

I would imagine that although individual Yamaha and Kawai upright pianos will have different "personalities" they will be consistent on having a pretty good build quality.
Although I haven't any experience on Kawai uprights I have played a couple of Kawai grands and I like both of them. I also know another pianist that I meet at a piano group and since we have been having to meet on line now know that she has a upright Kawai (perhaps a K200 or 300 but haven't actually asked) and it sounds good on the recordings she makes.
It might be interesting to visit Hamilton's in Preston to try those two K300 and K400 models side by side. I would be asking myself if the longer keys of the K400 make it easier to play softly.

[G3och]

Yep i might pay them a visit. Theres a Kawai dealer in Leeds, but theres heavy sales pressure into purchasing their award winning k300 so it did put me off a bit.

I am planning to visit Yorkshire Pianos possibly this weekend as well.

The Cavendish pianos aren't that well known ive had a look online for any current user's opinions but there doesn't seem to be any information. Guess ill have to try it out myself, apparently they all have renner actions.

Is there any particular reason why the U3 is so popular over the YUS3 in schools etc, is it just the routine of buying a U3 and its robustness compared to a more expensive yus3 which i guess does an equal job to a cheaper u3?

I think ill struggle to make decisions as its like a minefield. As Barry mentioned earlier, is it possible to get a piano with a nice treble found in Yamahas and a brilliant bass/mid tones found in a Kawai or is this a fantasy?

In terms of soundboards ive found new Yamaha are floating and Kawai are tapered. I am assuming ill just have to try them and see which one i like best?

[chrisw]

I believe Cavendish pianos use Renner hammers but wouldn't like to say if they use Renner actions. I would be surprised if they did. The other makes that Yorkshire pianos stock are Yamaha (I have seen the B series on the shop floor and the owner was describing to me how much work he puts in to make them sound more mellow) and Petrof. Yet another pianist that I know bought a Petrof upright there about two years ago.
If I remember correctly the Kawai dealer in Leeds is in the outskirts so I have never got there. I have visited Besbrodes a number of times which is nearer the centre.

[Barrie Heaton]

Is it better to just play the pianos rather than get bogged down in piano technical specifics?

Is it quite common for people to buy pianos and have them sound completely different in the showroom to their home?

Thanks for the advice.

It's always better to play the piano before you buy it.

When buying a piano from the showroom I tell the client to make a note of the serial number and let the salesperson know that you've made a note of the serial number, because you may get one out of the warehouse unprepared.

In days gone by we used to voice the piano to the room, it was going to be in.


Barrie

[G3och]

Is piano size also an important factor?
I mean ive seen c.bechstein for a massive sum of 16k and they start at 116cm tall. They are probably really well built and high quality but where does upright size start to become a limiting factor?

Majority of pianos from other brands start from 120 to 130cm

I might pay a visit to hamiltons and yorkshire pianos in coming weeks. Forsyth seems to be the local giant in piano dealing but they always try and steer me towards buying a Schimmel or Wilhelm which is quite off putting.

[chrisw]

The best advice I can offer is to set your budget and play as many pianos as you can buying the one that you fall in love with. Try not to analyse the specification, the size or the brand but select the piano that gives you the most joy to play (and take its serial number as Barrie suggests).

Salespeople can be expected to say what they say.

[Barrie Heaton]

Size matters, you can have a 116 quality piano which will outperform a 122 middle of the road piano across the range.

Schimmel 122 is a nice piano it voices well and the action can be tweaked. However, that is one brand you really do need to make a note of the serial number in the showroom. Over the years I've had quite a few students at chets who have opted for the Schimmel 122 as they cannot accommodate a grand piano.


Barrie

[G3och]

Thanks Barrie and Chris.

In terms of quality how do you know which piano is better quality or is this subjective?

Some brands ive looked at are

Yamaha
Kawai
Petrof
Sauter
Bechstein (classic or academy i don't know the difference)
Bluthner
W.Hoffman

My concern is spending a lot of money then realising ive bought the inferior quality piano. I thought £5000 would get a decent piano but with my recent experience im quite doubtful. Now im under the impression i need a higher budget to invest in a piano to hopefully last 30+ years

Feurich, they receive lots of praise online and have high spec parts for the price. When i got mine i enjoyed playing it until i realised it had nicked piano strings, poor coils, moving cabinet and panels. Development of weird noises (false beats?). A daily battle of finding buzzes turned me from piano learner to piano detective.

Im quite indecisive with pianos, i think it took me 3 months to settle on the last one. Now i just want one i enjoy but is pretty good quality and having to spend less time resolving issues.

[Barrie Heaton]

The piano makes fall into two categories handmade and production line.

Hand made are pricey but good on grand pianos, but on uprights Hmm £££ for the name, the exception to this is Steingraeber they are good

Steingraeber & Söhne
Steinway
Bosendorfer (now owned by Yamaha )
Bluthner
Bechstein ( not as good as they used to be the ones I have seen)


Now both Kawai Shigeru and Yamaha CF pianos are there hand made grand pianos and are very good pianos.


Kawai
Yamaha

Both the above production models are good to quote the Yanks "you get a lot of bang for your buck". I would say that the entry-level ones, Kawai are better pianos than the Yamaha at the moment. Both makes have production factories in Indonesia. The 122 sizes it's all down to taste both are good. The Yamaha SU7 133cm and Kawai K800 AS are in some cases are far better than Steinway and Bluthner uprights for the price. But again its all down to your taste in music.



Schimmel
Petrof
Sauter

Are good makes but can be variable in the quality

Barrie

[G3och]

Thanks Barrie

I was looking at if the extra 5k is worth it for a Bechstein or Sauter or if your literally just paying for brand name.

I do have Yamaha and Kawai mainly in mind to be fair, i just need to try as many out as possible at dealers. It is rare to have both in the same room for comparison.

The range i am looking at is

K500/600
And U1 to YUS3 (not sure if the price difference between u and yus is worth it) but guess i will find out if i try them.

I think these are all around the 5 to 10k ball park figure.

Thanks for all the advice.

[Barrie Heaton]

the k500 and K600 are very nice but like all pianos, you need to play them and a few if posable.

You asked about the U3 v Yus3. The YUS3 has better hammer felt (which helps if you want to take the piano down to Bluthner level of tone)
a better scale which helps in the mid-range change over to the Bass I must have about 8 YUS3 on my round all doing well.

My biggest issue with Yamaha pianos the bloody bass strings after 10 - 15 years they tend to go dull with heavy use on the U1-3 and Gb1 more than Kawai but Kawai strings do go as well.

My only problems with Kawais at the moment is they do seem to take more tuning to settle in, and they do swing more in a seasonal humidity change over Yamaha.

Barrie

[G3och]

Sounds like a minefield . Yep planning to try loads over the next coming weeks. Its difficult with the lockdown, I'd hate to drive to Wales then get turned away!

I have been told about Yamaha and Kawai strings, someone was telling me they aren't as good as roslau german strings etc. It would be interesting to see what one sounds like with german strings though.

The Kawai swing should be fine if they are tuned every 6 months, right? I was shocked when i asked someone online and they got their boston tuned once a year.

I did play some used U3s from 1970s to 1990s recently and actually felt the Feurich 125 was louder and had a much better bass, not sure if its the wurzen hammers or the roslau strings.

I am assuming Bluthner are quite mellow? Is there a limit to how much hammers can be voiced up or down? Is this dependent on hammer felt quality or is it specific to independent pianos. Im assuming id need to get any piano voiced down in my house to reduce volume a little, but ill only find out once its there.

Would you say Silent Pianos are worth it or is it better just to shove more curtain material behind the piano and use the celeste rail. Im 50/50 on silent pianos, it feels weird that they have to drill into the soundboard so you can plug the piano in.

[Barrie Heaton]

I have quite a few clients that only have their pianos tunes once a year or even in some cases every two years. I also have clients that have them tuned every 12 weeks or 4 times a year.

The new silent systems are quite amazing however, the set-off has to be taken back to 5 mm which does make the piano action feel weird. They don't drill imnto the soundboard for the cables but new ones use the soundboard a speaker there is a couple of solenoids attached to the soundboard to make it vibrate so you can put your hi-fi through the piano.

When we talking strings we really mean the bass strings the copper wrapping becomes loose over time its the way they put them on these days, they don't twist them like you can when putin them on by hand.

As to voicing down yes there is a limit and it is felt related.

Barrie

[G3och]

Just tried some pianos out.

Yamaha SE122, its been sat on the shop floor for 7 years but is a 2010 model, should this carry a warning sign if it hasn't sold during that time? It was quite nice to play but i should of taken sheet music to really test it.

Schimmel 116T action is light, quite hard to play, they said the actions more precise so not sure if thats a good thing at the moment. Sounds ok, strange from a listener perspective it sounded softer but when i played it, i felt it was brighter than the Yamaha

They did say the Schimmel is better quality.

[chrisw]

You must have visited the Schimmel dealership in Deansgate but it sounds as though you preferred the Yamaha. From what you say I am not at all impressed with the sales pitch on either piano showing that you have to trust your own judgement. However if the Yamaha really has been on the shop floor for seven years do you need to consider having it checked out by an independent technician ?

[G3och]

They are going to prep some new Schimmels for me to try over the next coming weeks

I thought the Schimmel was really hard to control to be honest despite being told the touch is more precise. I did take someone for a second opinion on sound, they preferred the softer Schimmel when played by the sales person. However, when i did individual note tests on the Schimmel im 100% sure it was brighter as you can hear that tinny and string rattling sound in the lower tenor and tinny sound in the treble. It was slightly out of tune as well but i didn't mention this.

Yes i preferred the Yamaha personally, but was told it might be too bright for my home acoustic. Im going to try more pianos over the next month or so. Im planning to visit yorkshire pianos but the owner hasn't had any stock of sauter, petrof or yamaha due to covid19

[chrisw]

Are you aware of the Yamaha dealership in north Manchester, Musicbox pianos in Bury Old Road ? They seem to be able to get new Yamaha stock at present according to a friend who is expecting delivery of a new upright in the next couple of weeks.

[Barrie Heaton]

Are you aware of the Yamaha dealership in north Manchester, Musicbox pianos in Bury Old Road ? They seem to be able to get new Yamaha stock at present according to a friend who is expecting delivery of a new upright in the next couple of weeks.

The music box is no longer trading Bury Old Road his daughter has a shop in Bolton called Park Pianos.

As to the Yamaha being on the shopfloor seven years that used to be very common before the Internet all the discounting dd make pianos shift depending were you were in the food chain it was a good thing or a bad thing.

[G3och]

Ah. Ive met Rita at Park Pianos, quite a nice selection of pianos. I am planning to go there over the next coming weeks as well.

Barrie, would you say the concern of it being on the shopfloor for 7 years not be an issue? I do find its more a psychological thing knowing i can get a 2020 model for about 1 or 2k cheaper, i would need to try it though.

[chrisw]

I guess my friend must be dealing with Park Pianos. She told me that she traded her grand with the people she originally purchased it from (MusicBox Pianos) and is expecting her new upright soon. They have already collected the grand piano.

[Barrie Heaton]

Ah. Ive met Rita at Park Pianos, quite a nice selection of pianos. I am planning to go there over the next coming weeks as well.

Barrie, would you say the concern of it being on the shopfloor for 7 years not be an issue? I do find its more a psychological thing knowing i can get a 2020 model for about 1 or 2k cheaper, i would need to try it though.

I have never been in Park Pianos but have tuned a few pianos they have sold no problems on any of them and like her Dad good prices.

if it was Just a normal upright, not a problem it will be settled in but having a silent system if it goes wrong down the road that may be problmatic.

[G3och]

Hi

Thanks everyone for the advice, i had loads of visits planned like coach house until we were banned out of Wales and Yorkshire Pianos.

However, ive just been to Park Pianos and found the dream piano, which turned out to be a used Yamaha U3S. I think i knew as soon as i played it, fantastic tone, volume, transition between bass and tenor and the action was amazing.

Insides were practically brand new and bass notes were great.

I am wondering if this is how other people feel when they find the right piano?

[chrisw]

It sounds to me that this U3S ticks all the boxes. Congratulations.

[Barrie Heaton]

as chrisw if it ticks your boxes then go for it

What I tell my customers is go back take three bits of music one you love playing, one you find technically difficult and one you hate. If all them three pieces sound wonderful on the piano then that's the one you.

Barrie

[G3och]

Yep thanks Chris and Barrie

I didn't take any music down but just messed about on it testing dynamics and tonal quality.

I was just thrown back a bit as every part was singing and well voiced together. I've tried loads of pianos and there would always be one part not that great like a tubby bass or a tinny treble. The entire scale tinny or muffled. Im glad this one ticked all the boxes for me.

I had the technician play some songs and had it checked over so i was pretty happy with it.

I've already put a deposit down.