Seiler 180 (1986) vs new Yamaha C3 or C5

[helmllwyn]

Hi, I am having difficulty in choosing between a used Seiler 180 and a new Yamaha C3. It was in my mind to go for the Yamaha until I played the Seiler, which has a sweet sound throughout the range, although a slightly 'clunky' bass. My room is 45 ft long by 22ft wide ,and has a 20ft high ceiling(converted chapel!),and I do feel that the seiler,although good, is a little on the small side for the size of the space. It is also in my mind to upgrade the C3 or C5 in a couple of years time. Can anyone help me make this difficult decision?. My ultimate piano would be a 6'3 Bosendorfer (or possibly the Yamaha s4).Thanks

[helmllwyn]

Hi, following on from my previous post, I am going to see Harry at Music Box pianos tomorrow, as he has 3Yamaha C3s in for me to try. The doubts I have about the Seiler are a little petty I know,but they still niggle e.g at some time the piano 'lid' has fallen backwards and strained the hinge,with some resulting repair work which shows. Also the bass seems a tiny bit woody compared to the bell-like top and middle. Could this be because the piano needs regulating and tuning?. .the quality of the bass (from c below middle c down ) does not seem to match the rest of the piano tone which is glorious. I am a professional pianist, so the piano will have to stand up to many years of daily use,and rehearsal with singers etc. I am in a quandry with this piano as it has many things that I love, but the doubts remain. . . .help!

[Barrie Heaton]

The Seiler 180 you are looking at has an very powerful treble but not a harsh sound the bass is good but because the treble is outstanding it make the bass seem dull it would be a shame to kill that treble to make the bass shine However, if you can get Harry to place the Yam C3 side by side and compare the bass of the Seiler and Yamaha you will see it has a nice base. However, the golden rule is if you have the slightest doubt then don’t buy if you think that one of the C3s have the edge then go for that one



Barrie,

[helmllwyn]

Hi Barrie,
Many thanks for replying to my post about the Seiler. I did go up to Music Box on Tuesday to see the Yamahas. Harry had 4 C3s in , including one which had just come in. Three of them I discounted immediately, but the most recent one had a nice clear tone , even across the entire range, and is a distinct possibility, it just goes to show how important it is to try the piano before you buy!.Harry was great!, and had me playing the C7 as a comparison, obviously this had the bass tone that I had been looking for,and is something to think about for the future. The decision is now to either restring the bass of the Seiler(from B down), or go for the new Yamaha. Difficult decision this, as I don't know if the new strings will improve the sound that significantly. . . .hmmm!. Harry suggested that he might be able to get me a new Seiler within a year or two, so that's also an option. Will decide within this week though ,so will keep the post up to date.I would advise anyone to go to Harry for their piano, as he gave me such a lot of his time and advice(and a cup of tea!). Thanks again

[Barrie Heaton]

If you like the sound of the C7 at Harry’s then you will not like the Seiler even with new strings. The C7 came in un-prepped and it has been toned with quite a bright bass so it sound like you like a Jazzey bass rather than the mellow tone of the Seiler

As you have appreciated you can have 4 pianos of the same model yet have 4 contrasting sounds



Barrie,

[scottjr]

I have a Seiler Favorit Special piano which I purchased new in 1993. I bought it in preference to a Welmar (I had a Welmar A2 at home which has a mellow sound). The Seiler was for my flat in Newcastle which had tall ceilings and large rooms. When I returned home with the Seiler I did not like the sound in my smaller lounge and prefer the Welmar (now given to my daughter). The Seiler is loud not harsh but not mellow like the Welmar. The Seiler bass is very good better than the Welmar. I am aiming to change the Seiler for a mellower sounding piano (I have even considered a small Bechstein). My Seiler is 114 cm high, slightly taller than the Welmar A2.

[helmllwyn]

hi James,
Thanks for telling me about your experience with your Welmar and Seiler pianos. I have always found the Seiler uprights to be excellent, in some ways even better than their Grands. I had a Welmar model C upright for many years,and only recently part-exed it for the Seiler Grand which I am now trying. As you say,the old Welmar sound is beautifully mellow. After much deliberation!, I have decided to go for a new Yamaha C3 from Music Box . I went up to try it,and was surprised at how warm it sounded. Not as rich as the Welmar in some ways,but as it is a 6 ft Grand,the sound from the bass is better than my old piano,and I think from my students point of view it will be better for them to play,(more consistent), than the Seiler,which is 20 years old. In a couple of years time I will more than likely swop it for an S4 (finances permitting!).Thanks for replying to my post. Happy music making! Elizabeth

[helmllwyn]

Hello James again,
By the way my Welmar (1977),is now with Harry at Music Box pianos (see link above). It is a lovely insrument, which was chosen for me by the piano tuner at the Royal College of Music at the time,when I was a student there. It is in a satin Mahogany case in very good condition for it's age,and has served me very well. In fact I was reluctant to let it go,but couldn't really afford to keep it and buy the new piano. I moved into a new house a few years ago with a very large room(45ft by 23 ft!), and the Welmar sounded good in here, but I always wanted a Grand piano. That was my only reason for selling it.
I am sure that you would like the Welmar,if Harry has still got it.It may need some small work on the hammers to reduce the slight brightness that has resulted from the years of use,then it will a superb upright. Don't even consider the Welmars from the Whelpdale ,Maxwell and Cod merger, or the hybrid cut and shut piano!. Go for a good used piano anyday.

[PianoGuy]

Don't even consider the Welmars from the Whelpdale ,Maxwell and Cod merger, or the hybrid cut and shut piano!. Go for a good used piano anyday.

Eh?

You didn't!

[helmllwyn]

horses for courses piano guy.different things are suitable for different requirements.Thought you might know that! I was trying to help James with his search.

[PianoGuy]

I was merely being deliberately disruptive!

[helmllwyn]

O.K . . forgiven!. I only went for a new instrument because I am intending to upgrade it in 2/3 years time.What piano do you currently play?

[scottjr]

Thank you for your response. I have just returned home from Cheltenham where my son and I tried several pianos. There were 4 recently completed Welmars all sounding and feeling slightly different. One was very mellow, so much so that it could not be played ff. The other three were mellow but could be played pp to ff. It is difficult playing in a shop but I think I preferred the 1964 model now given to my daughter. We also tried a reconditioned 1935 Welmar. It was better than the new ones being mellow and capable of being played ff. It was next to an old reconditioned Bluthner which was similar. They also had a August Forster Lobau made in GDR and fitted with new strings. The bass was very good and I enjoyed this piano but my son felt the trble sounded woolly. It had a good range from pp to ff but the ff was very loud. The 1908 reconditioned Bechstein was also very nice. They had 3 recent Yamaha U1s. I have never been keen on Yamahas but my son played three U2s when he was at boarding school and where he first played piano and he has always liked Yamahas. I must admit that these U1s were very nice to play and did not have the bright sound which I associated with Yamaha. I returned home not knowing what to do. My son says we should go for Yamaha or go for the 1935 Welmar or if I am going to spend money changing the Seiler I should go the whole hog and buy a new Bechstein 118!

[scottjr]

PS
I also tried a Yamaha silent piano which seemed to be a very good alternative. I could play and listen in the headphones and my wife could watch TV!

[PianoGuy]

O.K . . forgiven!. I only went for a new instrument because I am intending to upgrade it in 2/3 years time.What piano do you currently play?

I have an old 1920s Chappell Diamond upright (which was the inspiration behind the Yamaha U series!) which I love dearly purely for sentimental reasons. In realty, it's eclipsed by more modern designs, but was a stormer when new. Better in all respects than any contemporary Bechstein. I also have a Yamaha grand.

I reckon that a C3 is the best value grand piano available for sensible money. A perfect balance between price paid and piano obtained. The Steinway B is similarly excellent value, but for much more money. I'm stcking with my Yam until I can afford a B. There's nothing that appeals enough to me in between to persuade me to part with the cash!

Interesting to hear scottjr's finds about new Welmars. What was the build quality like? Also the quality of their renovated pianos? I agree with your son, btw.... Find a good U1 and you needn't spend more. A *good* one, mind!... There are thousands of clunkers out there!

[PianoGuy]

My son says we should go for Yamaha or go for the 1935 Welmar !

You already know my thoughts on Yamaha, but those pre-war Welmars were really good for their time. Some of them even claimed that they should "not be confused with the Famous Blüthner Pianos of Leipzig" on a little ivory coloured plaque screwed to the inside of the cabinet. Unfortunately many of these go missing because they were little works of art in their own right with elegant 1930s lettering. The plaque also states that they are in fact manufactured by the "Blüthner Company London" thus sneakily suggesting that they do in fact lay claim to a bit of that heritage after all!

In real terms, there's little in common with the Blüthner apart from the blue felt and an integrity of construction.

[scottjr]

I can only comment on the appearance of the Welmars. The cases and fittings looked good and the internals (from the open top lid) also looked well made and nicely finished. I found the edges at the front of the keys rough to my fingers, one piano had cracks on the top of the white plastic key. The Welmar transfer had fallen off one piano. The feel of each piano felt nice and even and to me they appeared to be regulated well. My son said they were better than a new one he played three years ago in a shop in Bath.
The three U1s were of different ages. One was 3 years old (number in the range 6000000) purchased for a child who did not take to the piano. One was about 12 years old (4000000) prefered by my son and one was still to be worked on.

[helmllwyn]

Hi James
Sounds like you had an interesting day! If it's a choice between the Welmar(1935) and the Yamaha, I would definitely go for the Yammy. I never thought that I would be a Yamaha convert either,but they really have got their act together in the last few years,and realised that our delicate european ears require a more rounded mellow tone.Still,it pays to go and play the actual piano you are going to buy.I tried 4 C3s before I chose the one that will be arriving next week!. . exciting!.Did you have a chance to try the SU118C ?, I was very impressed by this piano up at Music Box last week, and they are offering it for £5389 (30%off). Also the SU7 (£9799!).
The silent piano option is very useful if you have a partner who gets mad when you practice during the footy!. Let me know how you get on.

[scottjr]

My search for a new Yamaha has drawn a blank so far. I contacted Chris Venables. They discount their pianos so much that he cannot afford to even offer a part exchange for mine which although a very good piano would not sell in his showroom which is full of Yamahas! I have advertised mine on pianostreet and will wait for a response - hopefully. As I live in Bath I do not wish to travel to Manchester to see a Yamaha. I also emailed The Piano Warehouse (now Workshop) but they have not even replied! I am thinking of having my Seiler toned by an ex Bluthner technician in the hope that it can be made more mellow. However I rather fancy the Yamaha silent piano.

[helmllwyn]

Hi James,sorry to hear that you're having a problem part-exing the Seiler. Just a thought. . have you got a branch of Dawsons near to you,as when I went in there (Chester Branch) 2 weeks ago I noticed that they had Seilers,both upright and Grand models. The salesman I talked to said that they had just decided to stock them as they had been looking for a good European make to compete with the likes of Schimmel.Armed with what you know about piano discounting! perhaps you could negotiate a deal with them. I know that I keep harping on about Music Box as they have been very good to me,but you could do worse than phone Harry there and at least ask him whether he will buy your Seiler from you,(he may even deliver a Yamaha for you to try if you pay the delivery charge. . . who knows,you may even like it!.
Good luck with the search, you'll get to piano Nirvana in the end!.
Elizabeth

[Gill the Piano]

Have you tried the Bristol Piano Company? Just a thought!

[scottjr]

Thank you for your replies. I have put my piano on www.pianostreet.co.uk as well as this website. Thank you for your replies. I have emailed Dawson's and will contact them and Bristol Piano Co next week.

[scottjr]

Thanks for all your help.
Harry looked at my Seiler piano on www pianostreet.co.uk and said it was completely overpriced. I replied saying that it is not so much my selling price but the actual payment I have to make plus my piano that is important to me. He did not reply further.

Bristol Piano Co. offered £2500 for my Seiler against a new Yamaha U1 silent price of £6799 which means I have to pay £4,299 plus my piano. They want to make a profit on the new Yamaha and a profit when they sell my Seiler.

Dawsons have yet to reply to my phone calls.

I can get a new U1 Silent for £4759 from Venables or Harry without any part exchange.

I would sooner give the Seiler to my son rather than accept a silly price for it. The new Seiler price is over £6,000 and mine looks and sounds like new. I would accept £2,500 for it as a private sale. If I can't sell it I will have it toned down by a reputable piano technician. I am in no rush.

[PianoGuy]

They want to make a profit on the new Yamaha and a profit when they sell my Seiler.

Generally, that's why dealers exist. To make a profit.

I have no doubt that Bristol could supply at Venables / Harry prices too with no part exchange. Why not approach them and suggest they match the Harry / Venables price and take your Seiler in to stock and sell it for you on commission guaranteeing to return you at least GBP2,500 when it sells?

You can't expect a dealer to supply a new piano at max discount and go into "negative equity" by giving you max px price for your piano.

Having seen your piano on the website, I would guess that part of the reason why it's been described as 'overpriced' is that the modern casework style is well out of fashion these days, and trad cased pianos such as the U1 sell far more easily. You'll also need to find a punter who recognises Seiler for the quality piano that it is, as the make is an obscure one as far as Joe Public is concerned. A good piano dealer will have an easier time selling it because people will trust him and go to him for advice, and (duh!!) specifically to buy a piano. Ordinary Joe is more likely to accept a dealer's word that it's a top Euro brand than yours, that's *why* a dealer can, and should make a profit. It's also why a car dealer can sell an old Metro for 850 quid when you'd have trouble shifting it for fifty. (unless that is, you're a car dealer!!... Which I'm gessing you're not!)

Harry and Chris aren't stupid. They have become immensely rich because they know they don't want a piano like yours that's hard to shift no matter how great it sounds. They can do great new deals because they don't bother with difficult part exchanges; they couldn't afford to at the tiny profit on each of their sales. They have to sell masses of pianos a year to be as successful as they are.

Why should any of Venables' clients want a second hand Seiler in a modern case when they can have a U1 brand new for less than the price Chris would have to sell yours for if he took it in for what you're expecting?

Sorry to be harsh, but that's reality for you.

PG

[scottjr]

Thank you for your observations.
I agree and accept that a piano dealer has to make a profit on each and every piano he sells. However the difference between Venables price and the money I have to pay BPCo (who presumably have a low turnover of pianos) plus my Seiler for the Yamaha is just 460 pounds. Clearly it is better for me to either buy a new Yamaha for cash at Venables (who presumably make their profit on the high numbers sold) or keep my Seiler or give it to my son or negotiate as you suggest. I will not be making any rished decisions and will continue playing the Seiler (and driving my wife into another room!)
Your comment that the compact modern look is not so sought after now is interesting and I can appreciate that.

[PianoGuy]

Clearly it is better for me to either buy a new Yamaha for cash at Venables (who presumably make their profit on the high numbers sold) or keep my Seiler or give it to my son or negotiate as you suggest.

I'm sure your son would appreciate such a kind gesture, but here is your best way of getting the U1 Silent with a cash outlay of a mere GBP2,259, bearing in mind that Bristol is a town near to you, and you therefore have a convenient and local dealer at your service, this is what you should do:

1) Contact Bristol Piano Co, and ask them to match the price of 4,759 as offered by Chris and Harry. They *will* do this.

2) Ask them to take your Seiler in to stock and sell it on your behalf on commission returning you no less than 2,500.

3) Sit back, enjoy your new Yamaha Silent Piano.

4) Wait for your piano to sell. Even with their expertise this could take some time, but I'd have thought you should get your money within 6 months.

Voila!!

Good luck!!

Guy

[scottjr]

Thank you for your advise.
We revisited Cheltenham and tried the 3 year old Yamaha U1 before committing to buying a new U1. My wife did not like it saying it was too bright. It sounded less bright previously when in a different position. She preferred the black Welmar with the Renner action and Abel hammers Which I thought was too mellow at the last visit but sounded better in a different position. However the best piano was a 1889? reconditioned Bechstein upright. It had a lovely tone. However I was uncertain about buying an old piano.
We have now decided to buy a new Bechstein Classic 118 which has a lovely tone from pp to ff. We do not know what to do with the Seiler. It is too good to let it go at a silly price. I may ask someone to sell it on commision or alternatively keep it until my son has a flat of his own and let him have it. In the mean time it will sit in the hall. It is too heavy to take upstairs where we had the Welmar (it took 6 men to get it up) until my daughter had it a couple of years ago (it then took 3 men to take it down).

[scottjr]

My new Bechstein Classic 118 arrived today. It has a lovely feel and although the tone is not spectacular, like some pianos, it is really good and expressive and after several hours playing it does not tire. The chords sound lovely and I assume, compared with my Seiler, the harmonics all blend well. My wife and I are both very pleased. I am sure it will give us many years of pleasure.

[helmllwyn]

Congratulations!, may you have many happy years with your new "friend"!.I'm glad that you finally found the piano that makes you Happy. I am still trying to do the same (think I've cracked it now though).
happy Music Making!

[scottjr]

Have you found and bought your piano yet?

[helmllwyn]

hi James, and a Happy new Year!. Yes,after much searching, (of the soul as well as the place sort),I have at last got my piano. I could not afford the Steingraeber 205 which would have been my first choice , but I am more than happy with what I eventually bought. I am now the proud owner of a superb Yamaha S6, bought at a super price and well prepared, with free delivery and 2 free tunings, from Coach House pianos in Swansea. It is a lovely instrument, and 9000 pounds cheaper than the Steingraeber. Coach House also assured me that if I decide that I do want to upgrade they will give me back what I paid for the S6, but the more I play this piano the happier I am with it.......the action is so smooth,and the tone mellow and rich.I am very happy. . . .at last!
Very best wishes, Elizabeth