Erard london serial 9451

[Erardfan]

Hoping someone can give me date age and info on an upright erard serial 9451 stamped J.Pape under the key cover but can't find a date anywhere. Looking for factory info any sales info and anybody know the real London numbers some say start in 1830 but London workshop was building harps and pianos - lots of misleading info on London numbers anyone can shed light on this.

[Bill Kibby]

I'm sorry I can't quite follow some of your sentences, and I have no idea what you mean by splay legs. These are "French Legs", also known as "Swan Legs". For Erard London numbers see
http://www.pianohistory.info/numbers.html
These suggest that the piano might be 1865, but the page explains that it is unwise to rely purely on numbers to date a piano. Are you able to post photos here to show what the whole piano looks like?

No archives are known to survive for their London pianos, and it is not possible to trace individual London pianos unless they happen to appear in Paris archives. See the notes near the bottom of the page at
http://www.pianohistory.info/archives.html

[Phiphi]

Unfortunately, I can only confirm what Bill said: the London archives have disappeared. I guess that the data listed by Bill in his web page are based on dates written on the keys. The actions were made in advance, and sometime came from Paris. So, I Bill said, it's not very reliable. You can consider that a piano has been made up to, say, two years after the action was manufactured. I can also check if any of our Fan d'Erard members have more detailed data for pianos whose number is close to yours.

Philippe
www.fanderard.org

[Erardfan]

Hi all thanks so much for your replys i have just uploaded pictures yes by london numbers which are hard to find its possibly 1865 but any piano company i contact verify 1831 i hope to find a year on it somewhere .
So far i found j.pape etched onto wood under the soundboard i presume a factory worker also any ideas on the signature i have uploaded pics regards !

[Erardfan]

Pics added hope for life history on this piano ive searched a lot of websites found a few splay legs if thats right ? But not like this il need an onsite inspection for more info but seems the piano world all use pierce atlas to date these so 1831 legally but probably 1865 and is that exact .....its 85 keys and have found 3 or 4 different names and initials on different parts is that normal .... j .pape is one and c.w and e.ellison something like that also green signature by serial number any ideas

[Bill Kibby]

These legs are known as "French Legs" or "Swan Legs". They are typical of the 1860s, as explained on my own website at
http://www.pianohistory.info/victorian.html
They are not really splayed! Look up the meaning of the word. The dates I published are based on definite dates imprinted inside London Erard pianos.

It may seem that Pierce is "the bible" but it ain't necessarily so! The dates I gave are perfectly reliable when you allow for the fact that, because making a piano was a long process, you can't pin it down to a single date anyway.

[Erardfan]

I just find it strange every piano shop will date it at 1831 and no way to say your records are correct due to it taking a long time to make a piano i see the french numbers are offset by 1200 for every 1700 made in france and if erard london factory set up in 1792 was making harps and pianos i dont see how london numbers start in 1830 9000 pianos were made in france was there a worker named j pape ? Il look at the action and other bits for year thanks for info

[Phiphi]

If you don't find a date written on one of the keys at the end of the keyboard, you can only rely on this 4 digit serial number.

There were a few differences between the pianos made in Paris and those made in London, but in general, the models on offer were similar. Regarding upright pianos, the Paris workshop made only a dozen of them between 1824 and 1834. These had a vertical stringing. The real production started in 1834 with a small upright with vertical stringing and 6 octaves. The first oblique uprights, with 6 1/2 or 7 octaves were made from 1839. Clearly, your piano looks more like he was made in the 1860's than 1830's, as Bill already said.

J. Pape sounds certainly more French than English. The actions were sometimes made in Paris, but in the name would be written on the action. If it's written elsewere, it means that J. Pape was in London.

Regularly during the 19th century, the numbering of Erard pianos made in Paris was offset by 1000s to account fot the pianos made in London. Therefore, a detailed study of the Erard Paris archive would probably confirm the numbers for the London pianos given in Bill's website. Just wait for the next rainy weekends. I may be bored enough to study these.

Is your piano in England ?

[Erardfan]

Hi !! Sorry i didnt realise there was a reply here apologies ! Im still trying to find more info on this erard london 9451 i took some parts off it says j.pape in one place then on the back of key 85 is 1552 then a.s and g.w then near serial number is another name i will upload pics today for you and hope by seeing the piano stripped back you can tell more info on it but cant see a year stamped anywhere 9451appears everywhere !

[Erardfan]

Heres some pics more of frame and action to follow

[Erardfan]

Have been reading the archives for the ledgers and found serial number 9451 is this mine or is there a french erard with the exact same number as mine either way the ledger is dated 1816 ??????? Im lost will update a pic of the ledger page i found if any can help

[Erardfan]

Sales ledger

[Erardfan]

Sales ledger from 1816 with serial number 9451 doesnt match any online dating of erards ??

[Erardfan]

Heres new pic straight strung anybody ?

[Erardfan]

Pics

[Bill Kibby]

Are you asking if it is straight strung? It is not vertical-strung but like many Erards, it is oblique-strung, the bass strings would make this clearer, sloping diagonally in order to get more length, to improve the tonal quality.