If the price are the same, kawai or yamaha which is better?

[fireworks]

some said the touching of kawaii is better but yamaha is easier for trade off

[PianoGuy]

IMHO, Kawai pianos are let down by their insistence of using ABS components throughout their actions. Technically and in performance, there is little difference to the immaculately machined wood in the typical Yamaha, save for a slight abruptness in the key travel of the Kawai.

Other things to consider:

1) Yamaha pianos are more likely to be discounted.
2) Kawai pianos drop in value more sharply than Yamaha as they are less well known.
3) Think about the longevity of the instrument. Knowing the Japanese companies' habits of cotinuous improvements, in 30 years' time will you be able to get replacement Kawai componentry? If the worst happened and parts were discontinued, wooden components are easier for a craftsman to adapt or create than ABS.
4) If you are ofered the "Steinway use Kawai to build their Boston Pianos" argument from a dealer trying to sell you a Kawai, tell him/her that the reason was because Yamaha refused!
5) The Kawai model range is bewildering, and even many Kawai dealers are unsure about past models.



PG

[ThePianoManLeeds]

I refer to your clearly 'anti Kawai' comments, which I have read with interest. I am a piano dealer in Leeds and offer several brands, including reconditioned Yamaha's to my customers and anyone wishing to view my web-site can visit www.thepianoman.ltd.uk

I would suggest that anyone reading your comments should contact Kawai UK on 01480 474751 and ask for a copy of 'The truth about ABS' booklet. This booklet is full of 'facts', too many to quote here about the enormous benefits of ABS.

The booklet deals with the argument head on. It deals with it in a rather factual way and is supported by evidence and lots of it. For example, wood is susceptible to breakage when subjected to continual high stress. For example, tennis racket manufacturers around the 1970's abandoned wood in favour of other materials. Also, wood has a tendancy to shrink and swell dramatically with changes in climate. Today, ABS is one of the most familiar of all modern composites. It can be seen in virtually all facets of everyday living, in products as diverse as home appliances, motor cars, commercial aircraft and window frames. Need I say more? I think the word we are looking for is progress!

About Kawai pianos and resale value: Any dealer that know's their business will tell you, a good pre-owned piano, in good cabinet condition, with a good balanced tone and well maintained will sell for a good price. People buy pianos more on these features than name, in my experience. Name alone means nothing. What would you rather buy? A poor version of model x or a really good version of model y? All pianos are individual's and you shouldn't generalise.

About the longevity of Kawai parts. I was lucky enough to be invited to the Hamamatsu factory by Mr.Hirotaka Kawai in Novemebr 2003. I learned many things about Kawai pianos during this trip. It's easy to think that ABS is new, well I can tell you that it isn't. It's been part of Kawai's unique selling proporsition for years, since the 1960's. They have proved to themselves and customers worldwide that it works! Furthermore, I think that other manufacturers of pianos are using some plastic parts these days!

About Yamaha being approached first to build the Boston. I really don't know if that is the case or not. If it is, so what? The world of big business moves in all sorts of ways and for all sorts of reasons. There is one thing that I am sure of however, it's unlikely that Steinway would have picked Kawai if they didn't think that they could do the job!

I hope my comments clear up any confusion that some readers may have experienced.

[Vale Pianos]

Nobody seems to have mentioned that the tone on Kawai pianos is far superior to Yamaha, I say that as a piano tuner of 22 years standing and having had the opportunity to compare at many trade shows. I have been asked by Yamaha on several occasions to stock their pianos but have refused because of the inferior tone.

Craig Lowe

[Barrie Heaton]

Both pianos are well made and good value for money, as pointed out Yamaha are more discounted so can work out cheaper for the up market pianos…..

Tone wise Kawai have a softer tone in general than Yamaha. However, this is a personal choice I would say that the Kawai concert grand is nicer than the Yamaha concert grand on recording I have listened to as I have not seen one up close but I would rather listen to the Bluthner concert grand but at the lower end I prefer the Yamaha but that is personal choice.

As to ABS there has been big problems in the past with plastic in pianos most makes have tried it in the past even Steinway, most dropped it because of problems. However, plastics have come a long way from the big problems the makers gave us with their plastic flanges, jacks, bushings and floating centres back in the 60s.- 70s

The limited use that Kawai employ ABS should not a problem in the models they use it on I tune quite a few Kawai’s and to date have not had a problem with ABS

The only thing I have noticed is 25 year old Kawai’s their bass string seem to keep better than Yamaha but they don’t like being moved and take more tunings than a Yamaha to stabilize them again, that is only my personal observation other tuners may find them different.

At the end of the day it comes down to finance, touch and tone of the piano that should be the main factor in your choice between a Yamaha or Kawai piano as they are both good makes and will give you a long life of enjoyment if you look after them.


Barrie,

[PianoGuy]

Nobody seems to have mentioned that the tone on Kawai pianos is far superior to Yamaha, I say that as a piano tuner of 22 years standing and having had the opportunity to compare at many trade shows. I have been asked by Yamaha on several occasions to stock their pianos but have refused because of the inferior tone.

Craig Lowe

As a tuner of some few years longer than that, both in London and the provinces, I disagree.

Read my post carefully and you'll see that I'm not 'anti Kawai'. The original post asked which offers the best performance for the price, and I gave my opinion. If you compare the tone of the two, one certainly is not 'far superior' than the other, they are well comparable.

I suspect that you don't stock Yamaha either because you can't compete on price with the hundreds of rabid discount dealers out there or that they have refused you for some reason. Maybe your premises are too small or not showy enough. Few dealers turn down a Yamaha dealership on quality grounds. Furthermore, dealers in new Yamaha are having a tough time owing to the appearance of thousands of grey imported used Yamahas, which is probably why ThePianoManLeeds is joining in and doing just that in spite of being very Pro-Kawai. He obviously doesn't have a Yamaha agency either.

Whatever you say, Yamahas sell. They sell because they're very good. Kawai are very respectable indeed, but drop in value more quickly on the open market because far fewer people know the brand. The 'Kawai who?' syndrome.

For the record, I'm not in agreement with the heavy discounters. The practice is stupid and suggests corner-cutting to me, but that's the subject for a different thread.

[PianoGuy]

ABS is tried, tested and proved NOT on trial, and evolving all the time. Its not Kawais fault if other piano manufacturers cant keep up. As a piano technition myself I can safely say that ABS carbon fibre is great thing for the piano.

Yamaha is a multi billion dollar corporation with output and market share of instruments hundreds of times greater than Kawai's. I'm sure that their R&D department could afford to use ABS plastics if they wanted. I suspect that for one reason or another they prefer not to.

It's nice to see Kawai being lauded by their loyal dealers. Interesting to see that not one Yamaha main agent has responded to this thread. I venture to suggest that's because they are selling more pianos. Also interesting to see that some of the replies are from those who admit to stocking pre-owned Yamaha. Could this be that they feel the need to have a Yamaha presence in their showrooms?

The Pepsi v Coke analogy is a very good one. Personally I drink both. I'm not knocking Kawai, and never have, but I feel they are not quite up to Yamaha's exceptionally high standards. Read the original question at the start of the thread.

PG

[Vale Pianos]

You will note that everyone but Pianoguy has revealed their identity, maybe he has a hidden agenda?

Craig Lowe

[Barrie Heaton]

You will note that everyone but Pianoguy has revealed their identity, maybe he has a hidden agenda?

Craig Lowe

Just because some wishes to use a nickname this is not an indication that hey have an hidden agenda

He prefers Yamaha you prefer Kawai he distrust plastics you don’t as tuners we know from the past that some of the plastics use in pianos have caused us big problems over the long term and those plastics were short chain polymers ABS is part of the long chain polymers group which don’t have the long term problems such as Bentley flanges had, Knights were using long chain polymer plastic jacks back in the 1950 and are still going strong the technology for moulding was not as accurate as to day and the demise of BPA is probably why they stopped using them

What bring a smile to my face is Kawai’s ranting about how stable ABS jacks are, but it is still seated in wooden parts, having said that it is still a very good product and Pianoguy has said the same he just prefers Yamaha


Barrie,

BTW I like Coke over Pepsi

[PianoGuy]

Just because some wishes to use a nickname this is not an indication that hey have an hidden agenda


What bring a smile to my face is Kawai?s ranting about how stable ABS jacks are, but it is still seated in wooden parts, having said that it is still a very good product and Pianoguy has said the same he just prefers Yamaha


Barrie,

BTW I like Coke over Pepsi

Thank you Barrie! I'll buy you a glass of it should ever we meet up.

No hidden agenda here. Unlike all the Kawai dealers I have no vested interest in which piano anybody buys as I'm not in the business of selling any make of piano. For this reason I can remain unbiased. I am a firm believer that if a piano appeals to the player in tone and touch, and the build quality is of a high standard (as in the case of both K and Y ) then that piano is right for the player. I have recommended hundreds of pianos to satisfied clients all over Europe in the quarter century that I have been connected with the trade; a goodly proportion of those being Kawai, so you see I have no axe to grind, I personally just prefer Yamaha.

I would be very wary of any dealer biased enough to promote Kawai over Yamaha without giving his customer the opportunity to try both. In my opinion, *that* would be a hidden agenda. A good dealer recognises the desires of his client over and above his own preferences whilst giving sound guidance on issues of quality. Sweeping statements about poor tone quality from Yamaha without a properly prepared range of those instruments to hand for reference is both misleading and unfair.

This means that anybody asking me for advice may be referred to dealer X for Yamaha, dealer Y for Kawai, dealer Z for Steinway etc. Admittedly more bus and tube travel for the customer, but a piano is often a once in a lifetime purchase that should be bought wisely.

Regards.

PG

[ThePianoManLeeds]

I have read the latest comments from The PianoGuy, with interest.
However, I feel I must point out to you, with all due respect, that if you had have answered the original question, (that started off this debate) in the 'objective' way that you wrote last night and clearly stated that you didn't have an axe to grind, as you did last night, then maybe you wouldn't have created such a 'hooharr' in the piano business??

A lesson learned, I hope?

With kind regards!

Mark.

[PianoGuy]

Look at my opening paragraph:

IMHO, Kawai pianos are let down by their insistence of using ABS components throughout their actions. Technically and in performance, there is little difference to the immaculately machined wood in the typical Yamaha, save for a slight abruptness in the key travel of the Kawai.

I don't see that as being anti-Kawai and I stand by the other points as being my own personal preferences. What 'hooharr' is this then?

No lessons learned here, nor required thank you. The reason I wish to stay anonymous is that in daily business I put the preferences of my clients first above those of myself. On this lovely open forum I can be more candid.

Who knows? I may have recommended clients to your good self to buy a piano? It may even have been a Kawai.

[ThePianoManLeeds]

You quoted last night, 'I am a firm believer that if a piano appeals to the player in tone and touch and the build quality is of a high standard as in the case of both Y and K, then that piano is right for the player'. (I entirely agree with this incidentally).

If you had have said this in the first place, allbeit you have a preference to Yamaha, your comments and tone, would not have been received so badly by many loyal supporters of Kawai pianos.

And finally, lets not forget your points 1 to 5 in your original reply, which, I feel have been completely answered 'OBJECTIVELY' by people in the trade with perhaps more general 'shop floor' experience than your goodself.

My final word on this matter is this: You are the only one that isn't putting your NAME to your opinions. At least the rest of us are proud to put our name to our opinions which I hope the general public following this debate will respect and trust us for.

I sincerely hope that you see my point?

Kind regards,

The PianoManLeeds.

[Steve071261]

Hi all,

not taking any sides here but in what way is referring to yourself as ThePianoManLeeds, any different to calling yourself PianoGuy?

...just curious...

Steve[/quote]

[Gill the Piano]

P'raps there's only one bloke in Leeds with a piano...?

[Steve071261]

Of course! Silly me...

...now if there's only one person called Guy with a piano, we're home and dry!

cheers,

Steve

[PianoGuy]

Nobody seems to have mentioned that the tone on Kawai pianos is far superior to Yamaha, I say that as a piano tuner of 22 years standing and having had the opportunity to compare at many trade shows. I have been asked by Yamaha on several occasions to stock their pianos but have refused because of the inferior tone.

Craig Lowe

This is very interesting.

On this very site there is a mention of Vale Pianos as a dealership in Worcestershire. I note with great interest that Vale is a Kemble stockist.

Craig:

Seeing that Kemble pianos are now without exception, rather splendid Yamaha products, built alongside Yamaha badged products in the same factory by the same staff, it seems highly peculiar to me that you stoop as low as to stock them; after all you refuse to stock Yamaha due to their inferior tone. Can you explain your decision to stock Kemble, and your 'refusal' to stock Yamaha?

Just interested, that's all........

[PianoGuy]

.... We're all waiting...

We can wait all day if necessary!..............

PG

[A440]

Gosh a hoo-harr, I just love hoo-harrs.
OK, sorry, but back to the dreaded ABS.
I'm afraid saying it is 'as good as wood' or even 'better in some respects' is silly.
Come back in 100 years and tell me it lasts as well as wood and I will believe you, because you don't know now do you?
As for not deforming under damp conditions...well no piano should be in damp conditions, deforming wood parts is one of the least of your worries with a damp piano.
I probably sound like a reactionary luddite but some things are just SO RIGHT, the correct material for actions is wood and I see no room for improvements.
Using ABS is cheaper, thats all there is to it.

[PianoGuy]

Gosh a hoo-harr, I just love hoo-harrs.

Me too, A440!!

I still note with interest that Vale Pianos haven't supplied any answer at all, let alone a valid one as to why they stock Kemble, but think Yamaha have a "poor tone". I think it's more likely that it's damned difficult to be a Yamaha dealer these days owing to the ridiculous deals on the web which can suggest one of two things:

Either: Most new Yamahas sold on the net at stupid prices are badly prepped and come with crap after sales service.

Or: Some Yamaha dealers are being supplied at vastly lower than trade price so they can afford to sell at silly prices.

Either way, the only thing which will suffer in the long term is the reputation of Yamaha's currently good reputation as badly prepared instruments hit the road.

As this post is likely to be read by potential Yamaha purchasers, think carefully on these points:

A Yamaha C110-A has a list price of GBP2,299. A quick surfy around the netty will reveal a fair few dealers who will sell you one for a tad under GBP1,600. That's a damned good saving by anybody's standards. That's seven hundred nicker that the dealer is prepared to lose in profit simply to get your sale. By the time it has been properly prepared, tuned and delivered there is about GBP150 profit in the deal. This makes a mockery of Yamaha's price lists for a start, but think on...

... Does anybody seriously think that any of these pianos have been prepared or even checked over before sale? I reckon that in most cases they haven't even seen the inside of the supplying dealer's premises, and will be delivered direct to you, the punter, from sunny Milton Keynes.

Great so far, but what if it has a fault upon delivery? Do you seriously think that your web based warehouse will send one of their (almost certainly non-existent) highly-trained technicians from their HQ some several hundred miles away to sort out your rattling pedal rod, scratched cabinet or sticky key? B****cks will they. They'll at most get a local tuner to try and sort you out and may reluctantly pay his/her bill.... Once. Possibly. They simply CANNOT afford to do more. I stress this point. Don't be taken in by clever copywriting on the dealer's website about how good or clever his technicians are. At these prices, they will have never seen the instruments.

After that you're on your own. I have no doubt that any major fault will be sorted by Yamaha themselves in the final instance, but remember that under British Law, your contract as a purchaser is with the *Dealer* NOT the manufacturer.

My advice is this:

Buy a Yamaha piano. They are superb instruments. If you don't try one, you're missing out. Compare it with a Kawai if you like.....
.....But buy from a reputable main agent that is local to you (so that he's on hand to deal with after sales issues) and pay a sensible price. By all means negotiate a discount; everybody likes a deal, including the Yamaha dealer, who will be instantly relieved that he's not being expected to compete with the STUPID prices on the net. Make sure that you play the *actual* piano that you will buy, not a similar one, and get the dealer to give it a good pre delivery service by a qualified technician. Included in the purchase price should be delivery to ground floor, a follow up tuning within 6 weeks or so, and the Yamaha 5-year Warranty. Look the salesman in the eye, meet the piano technician and satisfy yourself that they are genuine enough to provide and back up that warranty. You are buying a finely crafted instrument made of natural materials which should last a lifetime, not a fridge or stereo full of silicon to last for a few years.

I still disagree with Vale pianos about the tone quality of Yamaha pianos, but can fully understand why he's frightened to sell Yamaha. Yamaha themselves should be scared by the standards of internet dealing.

Pip pip....

PG

[Steve071261]

Gosh, this is all SO familiar!

The business I am in, we sell (amongst other things) GPS navigation and radio equipment to pilots and aircraft owners. We regularly get calls, often lasting 30 minutes or more, discussing the available options and technical merits of each piece of equipment within the budget. We often conduct demonstrations in either of our 2 shops, with our experienced staff, for anything up to an hour, for potential customers.

Many of whom then politely thank us and leave, and you just know they're going to buy it £25 quid cheaper from some box-shifter on the internet.

Occasionally, they'll come back to us post-purchase, when there's a problem and their internet "dealer" is proving a tad tricky to get a response from.

Imagine how keen we are to help...

Moral: the internet is a wonderful place, but a good servant is worthy of his hire. Don't begrudge a dealer with experience, staff and (most importantly) premises you can doorstep if necessary, a fair margin on his wares. Whether it's a piano, a DVD player or whatever. Otherwise, sooner or later, all that's left will be the internet bucket-shops and then we're ALL in trouble!

Cheers,

Steve

[PianoGuy]

Exactly....

And how long do you think it will be before Yamaha realise that they can dispense with their dealers altogether and sell from a net-shop?

Discounting netty dealers beware. Your days could be numbered.

[A440]

But arn't yammy doing pretty nicely at the moment. The beauty of their position is everybody thinks they're getting a bargain. If yamaha just had a set price for eveything no one would go near it. This well orchestrated feeding frenzy is the best way to unload goods. The nettys are safe for a while (god bless em).

[PianoGuy]

This well orchestrated feeding frenzy is the best way to unload goods. The nettys are safe for a while (god bless em).

No, not really the best way to unload anything except small portable electronics which can be shipped back to the buggers for repair.

The aforementioned Kawai pianos are generally sold from smaller dealers who don't discount half as much as Yamaha. I firmly believe that the quality of Yamaha products alone is enough to sell them. and if the stupid discounts were not available, the public would not expect them. One of the most coveted cars on the market is the VW Golf GTI. Try walking into a VW garage and suggesting they give you a discount. You'll be laughed out of the showroom.

Seeing that in the piano world, Yamaha pianos are at least as desirable as Golf GTIs, why should they need to be discounted? We both agree that they are better than their nearest rival, Kawai, and Kawai pianos are discounted far less frequently. I do know of a few small dealers who sell Yamaha and manage to sell them with only a nominal discount by stressing their quality of service, but it's a hard job when faced with the perennial cry of "but I can order it over the internet for GBP1500 less"

As I said, everybody likes a deal, but a typical 30% is unnecessary. It makes a mockery of list prices.

One of the small dealers who I know also sells Digitals by a range of manufacturers, and has a qualified electronic musical instrument technician on his staff. Without the massive discounts of web dealers, he has managed a healthy trade in these instruments by giving good service. At least half a dozen times a week he will be visited by a member of the public (who may have been in to his showroom previously to look at digital pianos) with a faulty digital piano. The conversation usually runs like this:

Punter: "I've bought this digital piano and it's gone wrong."

Dealer: " Oh dear. Did you buy it from us?"

P: "No, from Flash Harry's Discount Keyboard Web Emporium"

D: " well what do you expect us to do with it?"

P: "Repair it. Flash Harry's said to take it to my local Yamaha/Roland/Korg/Kawai dealer, and that's you. They said you'll be able to fix it."

D: " And indeed we can, but unless you bought it from us we don't have the time."

P: " But you're my local dealer?"

D: " yes, but seeing that you didn't buy it from us, you bought it from Flash Harry's and saved yourself (consults the Flash Harry website at this point) 45 quid over our price. You now need to pay to have it shipped to their warehouse in Great Orkney for them to repair it. Of course if you'd bought from us, we would have come out to you to fix it... Last time I checked the UPS rate to Great Orkney it was 75 pounds..."

Etc etc....

This usually results in anything from total customer meltdown (which my mate finds highly amusing) or a customer so terribly embarrassed that he'll never buy a lagre complicated item over the web ever again. For the record, the shop in question usually will even actually repair the offending piano, but he will push it to the back of the queue behind his own customers who he quite rightly prioritises. In fact his own customers benefit from a 24 hour turnaround whenever possible.

PG

[Barrie Heaton]

Seeing that in the piano world, Yamaha pianos are at least as desirable as Golf GTIs, why should they need to be discounted? We both agree that they are better than their nearest rival, Kawai, and Kawai pianos are discounted far less frequently. I do know of a few small dealers who sell Yamaha and manage to sell them with only a nominal discount by stressing their quality of service, but it's a hard job when faced with the perennial cry of "but I can order it over the internet for GBP1500 less"

As I said, everybody likes a deal, but a typical 30% is unnecessary. It makes a mockery of list prices
PG

Well it is now at 33% and 35% on some models its a price war and could go to 37% over Xmas

Which will harm a lot of small retailers who will have to sell at cost to compete As they can not buy them at the prices the supper dealers can.

In the car trade all the dealers pay the same price

Barrie,

[A440]

Yes Barrie, it's not an even playingfield. Also the goalposts have been shortened then moved.
But it's not a new phenomenon really. We used to have 3 local butchers and a couple of greengrocers in my town...
We now have a supermarket.
At least the dirty box-shifters are individuals not multinationals (my vote always goes to the underdog).
PG talks of aftercare service. Of course aftercare has to be budgeted for (1 in 10 You are a very nice person up so charge enough to absorb costs).
But Joe public, who can price compare at the click of a mouse will always go for the cheapest.
Why? The car-boot sale economy where anyone can get something for nothing.
Whose FAULT is it? Everyone is so upset someone must be at fault.
Is it the retailers cashing in on oppertunity (I thought that's what retailers did).
Or is it the buyers who want rock bottom prices with no thought for the future.
Or is it the complete lack of legislation. The government is very unlikely to crack down on this spending spree (the high-street is knackered so people have to spend somewhere)

[PianoGuy]

Whose FAULT is it? Everyone is so upset someone must be at fault.

.......

Or is it the buyers who want rock bottom prices with no thought for the future.

They are certainly not blameless....

PG

[fumbler]

Hi,

I'm one of those buyers I'm afraid (in the last few months) and whilst doing all the usual investigations before parting with my money I read somewhere (now long lost) that some of the differences between Kembles and UK Yamahas are that the Kembles have a different sourced soundboard, German strings instead of American, and different hammers on the Yamaha action. So there will, or can, be a different sound between the two, even if they all fall off the same production lines in MK. (Perhaps PG can correct any errors here.) Different does not necessarily mean better, and I too can't see the reasoning in not stocking Yamahas on the grounds of tone. No doubt many will prefer the Yamaha to the Kemble tone, as is their prerogative.

Anyway, when buying I preferred a UK built piano, which didn't leave a great deal of choice. I also had a limit on my budget. I read the reviews, and the later Yamahas without exception had an excellent reputation for construction and sound, so I was pleased to find the UK-built lines. I did get the 'All Yamahas are bright' story, even if they evidently and quite obviously weren't when they were played. I saw all the discount prices, and was amazed at the very substantial Yamaha discounts, even from established and reputable dealers.

At crunch time I went to the showrooms of a large dealer who had many makes on show. The bewildering process of chosing a piano and trying to compare the sound in a cavernous showroom is another matter. I explained that I was not looking to screw the last pound off the price, just to come to an agreement favourable to both of us, but I had had email quotes from other pukka (not internet) dealers. The salesperson just offered me a 25% discount on the spot, enabling me to have a model I didn't think I could ever afford. I couldn't possibly ignore it. So I am a happy buyer.

Quite frankly I don't know how the dealer could discount so much. I do get a faint twinge of conscience from time to time (which soon goes, however). I just can't say whether the dealer is happy or not, I have to assume that the deal was profitable for both of us. Maybe I'm holed up here with my black beast whilst many miles away the piano industry burns.

Rgds.

[PianoGuy]

I think there are more similarities between Kembles and Kemble built Yamahas than between Kemble built Yamahas and their Japanese counterparts.

They are all pretty dam' good, and there is simply no argument for stocking Kemble and deriding Yamaha.

Your dealer was probably relieved that you didn't press him for the 30% off that some dealers will stoop to. I'm not blaming just internet dealers here, I'm blaming *every* Yamaha dealer who sells at a profit which leaves no room for decent aftercare. They're digging their own graves and everybody else's along with them.

The piano industry will burn indeed!

[Michael36]

Gosh, this is all SO familiar!

The business I am in, we sell (amongst other things) GPS navigation and radio equipment to pilots and aircraft owners.

I think that's a better analogy with Digital Pianos. Since although there may be problems, there isn't the de facto "This product is great / but caveat emptor, it has huge potential problems" that acoustic Piano dealers basically use as a "buy this piano from me and pay more"

They effectively dismiss their own products. In the 2nd hand car market [which is the only sane place to buy a car] I might be tempted then to buy a new car, but this is dealers talking about their brand spanking new shiny pianos. "New pianos are junk" sayeth the dealers.

Fine, I shan't buy one at all then - good luck with the business of selling 'em, thanks for the warning

I can buy a digital from anywhere and be pretty much assured that if it works when I plug it in, it's the same as every other model - that's probably much more similar to your GPS kit, no? So I can see your problem, but acoustic pianos have a much bigger issue that the dealers will tell you - they don't work unless they sell them 2nd hand? Even worse.

This thread screams "dealers can't be trusted" at the beginning - the guys doing the witch hunts with each other "you have a hidden id" "You sell foo but not bar, but they are the same" "You sell foo, so that's why you're defending them" - yet has turned into "dealers are great, pay more and buy from them." Let's get out the onion and pass it around

I note when I walk into Chappels in Milton Keynes, the prices are all MRRP, all the acoustic pianos have "Don't touch, scumbag" on them, the shop is milling with people but no one is near them. Why? The noise perhaps, but a sound booth would help there. Or is the impression it might give that they are fragile ergo you can't touch them correct?

I wanna buy one, I wanna try one, but I can't play it without asking [and I can't play anyway, so the last thing I want is to be the only mug who asks and is playing - the only mug who is in that part of the shop, with the salesman breathing down my neck] - I know nothing about it, and some dealers are untrustworthy? Yikes, run away, run away. If John goes in ther e every week and plays it, mebbe I'd stand and listen to him? He can't afford one and plays a cheap junk 2nd hand piano at home, but his tyre-kicking on a Saturday might sell one to me - what a daft idea they have - a silent piano shop.

The digitals on the other hand are swarming with people pressing buttons and playing keys. You can't hear them, but if I ask they give me headphones - I've still got the saleman to deal with but most of my fears about playing it are gone and - the digital through headphones is the best it's going to sound.

I listen to the dealer in there for 30 seconds and, even though I know next to nothing about acoustic pianos, I know he's lying to a family of mugs about a "cheap", semi-weighted synth, so he aint trustworthy and their prices are way OTT.

At that point I figure that upright acoustics for beginners like myself are largely dead in the water - at least if this dealer is typical off-internet.

That big %age of sales of cheap pianos to people who will never learn to play [and buy an expensive grand or upright], but nevertheless must prop up many businesses aint going to happen when there's an alternative product that isn't sold with a "but watch out sucker" FUD warning.

Any argument about the digital never being the same won't matter - "it sounds like a piano to me". For one thing Yamaha's PR isn't "our digitals are crap, nuffin like a piano" is it?

Acoustic pianos appear to use a tactic to sell digitals and kill off the business " Really? Maintenance / Complexitity / Can't buy cheap / I'll get shafted by dodgy folk? Ooh - I think I'll get a digital then" "No wait, sir..." Too late.

"...ok Sir, but we sell digitals..." "Can you just plug it in, or are they junk too?" "Of course sir.."... "So I can buy from the shop on the internet then or the music shop down the road, good day"

I note from the MRRP of digitals that Yamaha are having a laugh. So I don't buy the direct comparison with that price with acoustic pianos [compare with the price they sell to the dealer might be better] It's a price to add false value afaict, mebbe not as bad as those guys selling watches in motorway car parks showing the mugs the glossy adverts they've stuck in Marie Claire with a 400 quid price tag, but nevertheless only the mugs would ever pay it.

Besides, the internet doesn't necessarily mean "not local" nor does it mean "not a showroom" - most internet sites I've looked at digitals and acoustics in have been shops - obviously not reputable ones w.r.t acoustic pianos or GPS equipment, otherwise their prices would match yours.

Imagine, hypothetically, if every shop local to me sells cheaper - I can't buy a piano unless it's local because of all the hassle the pile of quality lovely tone junk will give me, and all my local dealers are undercutting the "reputable" dealers offering MRRP or they sell on the internet too

Unfortunately I live near sunny Milton Keynes, so I can't buy an acoustic piano anyway since it'd be shipped from there

I'm sure your average USian would smile at the "great distance" Land's End is from John O'Groats] for a piano shipped from Japan.

I wouldn't be surprised that many dealers so-called service isn't just a local piano tuner / tech anyway - possibly the same guy in the Yellow pages I'd get if I bought the piano less locally - he might be happier to get a bigger cut [or charge less for the ongoing, we've got your money now get it tuned / maintained yourself stuff]

So what do I lose? Given the distance selling regulations, general consumer laws and given a decent local tech? 1 or 2 free tunings?

I'm sure it varies like with second hand car dealers, but having a shop and charging more isn't a sign of being reputable and yes, I'm aware it's not really what the dealers are trying to say - but from the pov of a potential purchaser I know I'm put off.

[Geminoz]

Sheesh you guys...get a life.... not everyone wants their identity made public....that doesn't mean their opinions are invalid.
BTW I prefer Pepsi..

[A440]

Gosh, Michael has lots of issues!
You have identified lots of weaknesses in the piano trade. Yes, a lot of big piano shops are too snooty. Probably because so many customers are not relly buyers but just people having a look in a shop for the fun of it. This is a danger of a highstreet piano shop.
So I would suggest you went to a smaller established piano shop (there are lots), and you will probably have the shop to yourself on a weekday so you can tinkle to your hearts content. Also you are more likely to get real advice from someone who knows about pianos rather than (more often than not) a smart (should that be smarmy?) young salesman who knows much more about selling than pianos.
All of the above is true of my (smallish) shop and I suppose I could give you my web address and you may well buy a piano from me. BUT the reason I am NOT doing that is because I think my anonimity is more USEFUL for you. This forum would just turn into a series of meaningless plugs.
You may find it hard to believe, but I do have the best interest of the customer at heart, it's my job.

[PianoGuy]

A beautiful post, A440!

Perfectly summed up I'd say!

PG

[Gill the Piano]

...and if they don't want you playing a heap of music in the corner to test the piano, then I'd assume they don't want to be inconvenienced by having to count your money either!

[Michael36]

A440, speaking personally, I've pretty much decided to get digitals at least until I'm a lot better.

When I do, of course, I shall get the helpful advice from the tech who goes with me not the dealer - as honest as I'm sure you are

The main thing that got my goat was the supposed added value w.r.t Yamaha discounts and the alleged non-profit.

The real reason for mentioning that particular shop was because firstly they are a shop and they quote MRRP and they are local to me [although I note they appear to have given in using MRRP on digitals - their web page appears to have a lower price for them. If that's not because of what I said in my earlier post [about the "fear" of mechanics and prep not working - and what I add in the story below - well, call me a cynic then

If you look across the range of yamaha...the 28% or thereabouts is on every piano, acoustic upright / grand and digital.

So sure, the cutting-my-own-throat math nearly sounds reasonable when it's a few hundred pounds [or even less on a p60], but on something like the CFIIIS MRRP is IIRC ~75000, the first google hits show it for ~50000 - that's 25000 pounds discount!!

If I meet the person who claims with a straight face that he adds 25000 worth of value by owning a shop and hiring a tech I'd (a) Count my fingers if we shook hands and
(b) Run away as fast as I could

Here's why I think they have MRRP :- [cue spooky music..]

Peter takes his daughter into Shappels [ a fictional shop of course - any likeness is unintended &c &c]

"Good morrow sir, how may I help?"
"I'd like a piano for my daughter, please"
"Hmm, she's not unattractive, bring her back when she's 18"
"No, no no, I mean I'd like to purchase a fine pianoforte for her"
"Oh yes sir, just my little joke, what's your budget?"
"2000 great british doobries"
"Well, sir, hmm, there's not a lot at that price point,
There's this commie piano badged by Yamaha"

It's not tuned or set up, so it sounds pretty bad and the touch is nothing special - doesn't matter, it's price tag says "MRRP 2,200 doobries" and it's designed to show Peter and his daughter that a 2200 piano isn't very good compared with the
others in the shop.

His daughters face drops "It's not very nice father"
"What else have you got?"
"Try this one over here - it's made in the UK by Yamaha - very nice..lovely tone and touch for the money"

"How much is it?" asks father. The salesman pretends not to
hear and continues sorting out the girl a stool.

So she sits down at the next piano - starts playing and a smile appears it's touch and tone is very nice.

Peter spies the price tag "MRRP 3200?!?!?!?!? Jeez!!!...better get her off there PDQ"

She turns and smiles "It's brilliant Daddy dear"

The sweat starts to appear on his brow, he's about to speak...and our salesman reels him in "I realise it's over your budget sir, but I'll have a word with the manager,
perhaps I can get a bit of discount" [On hearing this all the salesmen in the shop head towards the small office "A bit of discount" - they're laughing and laughing - "How do you say that with a straight face Charlie?"

Composure recovered, he returns to our Father and Daughter "Sir, if you buy this now I can do it for 2499"

"2400? That's only 200 more than the poor commie piano!" [No you wally 2500 pounds - sheesh, even the oldest trick
still works]

He looks at his daughter "Please father - I promise I won't date boys with motorbikes"

So he buys a "3200 piano" for "2500" over 20% discount.

He doesn't know or care that the commie piano was better than it appeared, that it would have cost 1600 if he'd pushed and the piano he bought he could have got for 2000. He doesn't care because he got a 3200 piano for 2499 and it was a million times better than the 2200 one

Anyway - that's enough ranting about it YMMV.

[tuna]

I heard on the 'piano grapevine' that chappells are closing their milton keynes shop. anyone else hear of this one?

[TammyHughes]

For me Yamaha will be my first choice.

[Barrie Heaton]

For me Yamaha will be my first choice.

That may have been the case in 2005 when this tread was started but Now... I
would say that Kawai have the edge over Yamaha on the entry level on
Grands and uprights from the ones I have worked on

Barrie

[vernon]

Kawai for me every time.
I'll buy modern Yamahas(not greys) anytime if they have survived ok.However, only once in a blue moon does a Kawai come up for sale.

[Colin Nicholson]

After a while to decide, for my 'final investment' - I bought a new K5 2 weeks ago - had it delivered on 31st August. Fantastic piano, great tone & nice touch. Found out later to lock the fallboard, those 2 screws for the soft fall mech - the bracket needs to be spot on, and lid locked while I tightened the screws.... and overall, very pleased with the piano

Colin

[rovikered]

My preferred piano purchase nearly 4 years ago was a Kawai RX-2 on account of the piano's beautiful mellow tone.
Much has been written/said about the comparable tones of Kawai and Yamaha but it is untrue to say that one is superior to the other. What is true to say is that they have different tones and my preference is for a mellow tone. A skilled tuner/technician can often successfully tone/voice a piano to suit its owner/player, but it is far preferable to buy an instrument which already possesses the qualities you desire.
I am highly delighted with my Kawai and I know I made the right decision at the time.

rk

[joseph]

Kawai RX-2 is an excellent piano. The KG-2 (the predecessor) was also an excellent piano, but I think the RX-2 is far better. Has anybody tried the new GX pianos yet?

The Kawai vs Yamaha thing really just comes down to which individual piano you like. Talking about the newest instruments, I would say they are on a par. Yamaha perhaps carry a little more recognition in their name because they're such a huge company, but that's no reflection on the instruments.

I remember I performed on a 7'6 Kawai that dates from about 1970, this was about 7 or 8 years ago, and it was a wonderful piano. It was sold to a pianist for £3,000 which is probably the market value for such a piano in a private sale, but I'll say he got a LOT of piano for the money. Every so often you come across a piano that seems to have it all - beautiful singing tone, responsive and smooth action, wonderful balance across the range, and a bass end that was to die for. You wouldn't really think an old Kawai would have these qualities, but this one did. I'm sorry I didn't have space for it at the time because I seriously considered buying it. The only thing was the case work wasn't pristine and I think it would require a complete re-finish. Probably it would benefit from re-stringing (although it sounded good as is) and it may want new hammers, although I get the impression it wasn't used for heavy work.

I haven't come across another Kawai that was quite that good. In fact I haven't come across many pianos that are quite that good. I don't know if that's because it aged well, if it was always good, if it was a particularly good time for Kawai pianos, or if it was a combination of all of these things, but it was way better than any Steinway B I've played. Perhaps it was just that one piano.

[Gill the Piano]

The only thing was the case work wasn't pristine and I think it would require a complete re-finish.

AAAAARGH! NEVER be put off by the box!!! You don't buy a pair of shoes and worry about the box!!!

[joseph]

Hi Gill, Fact is that was the only negative! It didn't put me off, but the size of the piano was just a bit too much for me sadly. Anyway in January 2014 I'll be taking delivery of something quite special.... I'll post pics when it arrives!