On the quest to replace my Wallis upright with something
better tonally, I came across a Welmar baby grand at a local
piano dealer which amazed me with such a tone for a small
(4'10") grand.
Judging by the serial no (5916), it was made sometime
before 1925. Does anyone have any knowledge of Welmars of
this vintage? From what I can find on the WWW, Welmars
of that vintage appear to have been made for Whelpdale
and Maxwell by Squire and Longson.
Anything *specific* I should be looking out for on this
piano?
Thanks.
Welmar baby grand
Moderators: Feg, Gill the Piano, Melodytune
I reckon you're looking at the wrong serial number, and I think you've lost an inch in your measurement.
Welmar baby grands are usually (but not always!) 1930s confections, and heavily derived from the Blüthner 4'11" of the period. The tone quality does indeed betray the dimensions, and at best these pianos are a real delight.
Trademark appearances are a general balance of proportion (most baby grands are stunted little runty things!) and an iron frame which looks quite modern; the bracing on the 'bent' side of the frame is a criss-crossed structure of bars at 90 degrees, with the 'Welmar' name cast on one of the bars. (Have I identified the correct model?) This is one of the few Welmars with genuine Blüthner influence; Whelpdale, Maxwell & Codd were the importers of Blüthner at the time and there was a very similar 4'11" Blüthner.
The finish is usually mahogany of a nondescript nature, best described as 'brown' and without figuring in the grain, although walnut was an option, and much rarer.
Unlike most grands of that size built in Britain, the 4'11" Welmar *should* use a proper roller action instead of the cheaper and poorer Simplex-Schwander-"D". This is important. Get your tuner to check this out. The roller action is a 'proper' grand action, the Simplex is a derivation of the long defunct (even then!) Molyneux Spring + Loop upright action, albeit much improved in build and the hammers rotated. This action was pure crap in uprights and only just OK in a baby grand! Simplex parts are no longer available from stock as spares, should anybody be folly enough to want to repair a piano thus equipped.
There are no real known 'issues' with the Welmar 4'11". The Blüthner version had problems with poor metallurgy in the action frame, but I've not known this problem on a Welmar. Check out that serial number again, and have a peek at the iron frame. It it appears significantly different to my description, then it *is* older (that 1930s frame design looks really quite modern) and I would tread very carefully.
You need to get that local tuner on the case for an inspection. Where in Scotland are you?
regards
PG
Welmar baby grands are usually (but not always!) 1930s confections, and heavily derived from the Blüthner 4'11" of the period. The tone quality does indeed betray the dimensions, and at best these pianos are a real delight.
Trademark appearances are a general balance of proportion (most baby grands are stunted little runty things!) and an iron frame which looks quite modern; the bracing on the 'bent' side of the frame is a criss-crossed structure of bars at 90 degrees, with the 'Welmar' name cast on one of the bars. (Have I identified the correct model?) This is one of the few Welmars with genuine Blüthner influence; Whelpdale, Maxwell & Codd were the importers of Blüthner at the time and there was a very similar 4'11" Blüthner.
The finish is usually mahogany of a nondescript nature, best described as 'brown' and without figuring in the grain, although walnut was an option, and much rarer.
Unlike most grands of that size built in Britain, the 4'11" Welmar *should* use a proper roller action instead of the cheaper and poorer Simplex-Schwander-"D". This is important. Get your tuner to check this out. The roller action is a 'proper' grand action, the Simplex is a derivation of the long defunct (even then!) Molyneux Spring + Loop upright action, albeit much improved in build and the hammers rotated. This action was pure crap in uprights and only just OK in a baby grand! Simplex parts are no longer available from stock as spares, should anybody be folly enough to want to repair a piano thus equipped.
There are no real known 'issues' with the Welmar 4'11". The Blüthner version had problems with poor metallurgy in the action frame, but I've not known this problem on a Welmar. Check out that serial number again, and have a peek at the iron frame. It it appears significantly different to my description, then it *is* older (that 1930s frame design looks really quite modern) and I would tread very carefully.
You need to get that local tuner on the case for an inspection. Where in Scotland are you?
regards
PG
Welmar baby grand
Hi Pianoguy,
I noticed your harsh criticism of the Simplex action fitted to thousands of baby grands and wondered what aspect of the piano is so crap. I read similar derogatory remarks in a tuning book once and apart from the fact that action wear was more pronounced than in roller actions there was no other comment. Is it the touch responsiveness of the action, the tone quality, lack of tuning stability, or other factors that deserves the harsh rubbishing that you gave this action After all if thousands of people hadn't bought pianos with this action there presumably wouldn't have been thousands made.
I noticed your harsh criticism of the Simplex action fitted to thousands of baby grands and wondered what aspect of the piano is so crap. I read similar derogatory remarks in a tuning book once and apart from the fact that action wear was more pronounced than in roller actions there was no other comment. Is it the touch responsiveness of the action, the tone quality, lack of tuning stability, or other factors that deserves the harsh rubbishing that you gave this action After all if thousands of people hadn't bought pianos with this action there presumably wouldn't have been thousands made.
peter
-
Gill the Piano
- Moderator
- Posts: 4032
- Joined: 25 Oct 2003, 19:39
- Location: Thames Valley
But they were CHEAPER!!! And even then the cash register was winning over the technical integrity - see other comments on plastic bits in actions these days...
Touch isn't as responsive from a player's point of view, and from a technical point of view they can be right *%&$^*$s to repair when the loop breaks; and note use of the word 'when' rather than 'if'...trouble is when one goes, it's usually a sign that they're all iffy
. And there goes the tuner's carefully-planned afternoon browsing in the antique shops of sunny Buckinghamshire 
.
Touch isn't as responsive from a player's point of view, and from a technical point of view they can be right *%&$^*$s to repair when the loop breaks; and note use of the word 'when' rather than 'if'...trouble is when one goes, it's usually a sign that they're all iffy
. And there goes the tuner's carefully-planned afternoon browsing in the antique shops of sunny Buckinghamshire .Re: Welmar baby grand
Hi Termax!Termax wrote:Hi Pianoguy,
I noticed your harsh criticism of the Simplex action fitted to thousands of baby grands and wondered what aspect of the piano is so crap. .....................
........ After all if thousands of people hadn't bought pianos with this action there presumably wouldn't have been thousands made.
Gill is absolutely right. These actions were fitted for reasons of cheapness to cater for the thousands of the undiscerning who simply (see what I've done there!!?) wanted a baby grand but couldn't really afford one. The spring-and-loop design was appalling to regulate the perameters that *could* be regulated; were poorer on repetition and unresponsive to play. There was also the wear problem noted in your post. The tuning stability and tone of a Simplex equipped piano was not adversely affected by the action per se but it often followed that pianos thus equipped were poorer instruments to start with. (That cheapness thing again!)
Thousands of people aren't necessarily *right* just because they buy something. Take the VW Beetle. A badly handling, slow, noisy, thirsty car with limited luggage capacity and it sold 20 odd million units courtesy of brilliant marketing. Unlike the Simplex action however, it posessed a fine degree of build quality and reliability.
Regards,
PG
Thanks for all the replies...
I've just been back for another look and checked the serial
number - 54841 which turns out to be mid 1950s. It *does*
have a proper roller action with very little wear on the
hammers and it does have the criss-crossed structure that
PianoGuy described. Sounds and plays so good I think I'm
going to take the plunge !
I've just been back for another look and checked the serial
number - 54841 which turns out to be mid 1950s. It *does*
have a proper roller action with very little wear on the
hammers and it does have the criss-crossed structure that
PianoGuy described. Sounds and plays so good I think I'm
going to take the plunge !