Restoring a grand, likely costs?

[Steve071261]

Hi,

I'm thinking about buying an older grand, of one of the decent makes (Bechstein, Bluthner, August Forster, Grotrian etc) and having it restored back to very good condition.

You occasionally see these, fully restored, for sale and typical asking prices around £12-15,000 sometimes more. I don't know what they actually sell for, of course, but it seems to me that doing this for myself (i.e. having it restored, NOT restoring it myself!)might be a good way to get a better piano than I could otherwise afford.

I'm considering purchasing something maybe 1910-1930, probably about 6 foot length, makers as above. Assuming average to high usage for such a piano, it should still be playable now, but getting very tired (and probably a bit knocked-about in the cabinet).

Can anybody give me an approximate likely cost for a proper, professional restoration, not just a tidy-up for resale job, including cabinet restoration to a good cosmetic standard? I'm assuming there will be no major faults to either soundboard or pinblock or I won't be buying that particular piano anyway.

Thanks for any advice,

Steve

[Barrie Heaton]

First of all the wrest pin bock may have to be changed as the piano may have been restored a few times before so the pins be quite large

Cost all depends who you use and can go to 12K 15LK for a full restore if you get a Bluthner then Bluthners are very reasonable and the piano goes back to the factory in Germany quite a few tuners are using the guys in Poland they charge about 6K but quite a lot of prep work needs to be done on them


Barrie

[PianoGuy]

Too right about those wrestpins Barrie!

I answered this query on another forum. It's good to see that we're both barking up the same tree!

http://www.pianos.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1066

I agree about Poland. Good work in general, but you can't leave it in the state that it comes back. Huge amounts of regulation required, especially on the dampers. Great polyestering, but that's often not appropriate on vintage grands.

regards!

PG

[Steve071261]

Hi again,

saw your reply on the other forum, too, thank you. (I watch both, but tend to find this one has more interesting contributions).

Interesting what you say about the pin-block, I assume that changing that is a fairly major piece of work, as many of the pianos I've seen offered make mention of the fact that the pin block is in good condition, just as they do about the sound board.

I also notice that you suggest that polyestering may not be appropriate on older pianos. I have seen a few restored pianos with a polyester finish, I'd assumed that this was, if not standard, then fairly common, and might go some way to preparing the piano for modern, heated rooms. I also think that keeping the patina of an older piano after restoration would be good, so refinishing in an appropriate way would be nice, but if it detracts from practicality that would somehow negate some of the benefits.

What is your view on the merits of older, restored pianos (built before central heating was common) versus newer modern pianos designed with centrally heated rooms in mind? I've been advised to get a modern piano, but the budget will probably only stretch to a Yamaha C3, not something from the makers listed in my first posting.

thanks,

Steve

[PianoGuy]

A C3 is the most sensible option, but the least romantic! I'm a great fan of this model and reckon that if you can't stretch to a Steinway, you should buy one. They're heating-resistant, very tweakable and can sound almost Steinway-like.

As for polyestering of old pianos, it is often done to consolidate the possible delamination of a rim. If the rim is in good condition prior to restoration, then this is not necessary and a traditional finish can be applied.

Polyestering, especially black, can be used to make good a previously *very* tatty piano! Of course if you buy the piano before restoration, you can be surer of its history. I have witnessed absolute dogs which would horrify you being snuck in to top restorers to emerge phoenix-like and beautiful, but it's better if you know that the piano you're buying hasn't had too hard a life IMHO.

Have fun choosing!

PG

[Barrie Heaton]

Hi again,

Interesting what you say about the pin-block, I assume that changing that is a fairly major piece of work, as many of the pianos I've seen offered make mention of the fact that the pin block is in good condition, just as they do about the sound board.

Depending on the make changing a wrest plank (tuning block USA) can be straight forward if you have the right kit on some makes but on others it can be very intense

Take a Broadwood or Chappell from the 1920 very little shaping and the plank comes out with the frame (plate) easy to work on. Now the Bluthner that is a deferent story plank is imbedded into the case and there is lots of shaping as the plank is stepped and the parts where the pins go are raised to fit in to the frame for the brass plates a lot of work Steinways are similar to Bluthner.

Me personal I don’t like putting in pins larger than 3/0 there are still some virgin pianos out there with 0/0 pins in. Schools are a good source for cheep 1920 pianos in a virgin state however, what you gain on the plank and soundboard you loos on the case.

Most older soundboards have cracks or compression ridges it’s the ribs that are important in Holland they tend to change the ribs not seen one done myself but many who have say it make a world of difference to old tired soundboards then there is the bridges they also can have lots of fine cracks new bridge pins can also make a big difference to the sound quality

Replacing Soundboards now that takes special knowledge and skill you need a person who has done quite a few and there is not that many in the UK. However, it is getting more common in the UK to change soundboards and some tuners are subcontracting that part out.

What is your view on the merits of older, restored pianos (built before central heating was common) versus newer modern pianos designed with centrally heated rooms in mind? I've been advised to get a modern piano, but the budget will probably only stretch to a Yamaha C3, not something from the makers listed in my first posting.

thanks,

Steve

All depends on what has been done I was at Bluthners last week and they had two rebuilt grands the keybed, keys, frame and the case was all that was left of the original piano it play and sounded very nice.

take a look at
http://www.bluthners.co.uk/bluthner/usedpianos.html

Bluthner Style IVA 5'5" / 166cm Mahogany Satin Finish £13,995.00
Restored about six years ago,

* New Soundboard
* New Wrest Plank
* Roller Action
* Ivory Keys

Or why not go for second-hand but around 10 – 25 year old

Barrie,

[Gill the Piano]

On a purely emotional basis, I find a lot of the older pianos have a warmth and a tone-quality which even the most expert toner couldn't reproduce on a new Yammy. It really depends what level of player you are - if you're crashing through concertos to learn them for performance for five hours a day, then the Yamaha is the workhorse for you. If you're playing purely for your own amazement ( ) and do a couple of hours or so a day, then a carefully chosen and looked after (ie, not cooked!) older grand would cope admirably, provided you're aware of its little foibles and don't put it in a double-glazed, hermetically-sealed box of a room; keep heating down and a window open/humidifier running/bowl of water somewhere the cats won't drink it, and it should be quite content and reward you with a depth of sound that a C3 won't equal.
Of course, that's only my biased opinion as the owner of a 1929 Bluthner!

[Barrie Heaton]

The are 2 Seiler Grands at music box Manchester a 168 pro 12 year old but I have 2 of the keys and will not be fitting them in till next Monday had to rebush them,(there was nothing wrong with them It will teach me not to ask someone to do a simple job long story) it need a bit more work on the regulating. There is also a 240 that is almost sold but I prefer the 168cm, the 240 could do with new hammers to bring out the full sound but the guy loves it

Barrie,

[Steve071261]

Thanks for all the useful postings.

Regarding my level of playing, I'm purely an amateur. Got grade 8 when I was (much) younger, and am now trying to recover some of my skills and learn jazz piano at the same time. My teacher has a 5'10" Steinway which she bought new probably 20 years ago. It is absolutely glorious. I've tried a few Yamaha C3s in shops and been disappointed. The touch is not as tactile as the Steinway, and the bass is not so rounded, even though it is a bigger piano.

I've also tried Bechsteins and been unimpressed, liked Bluthners apart from the touch being a little light for my preference. Like Bosendorfers (well, you would, wouldn't you?).

I still like the idea of buying an older, top quality classic piano and having it brought back to life by a good restoration job, (romantic notion, as Gill says) but I've been advised against it by my teacher who thinks that the older glues and level of seasoning in the woods is different from what is used to cope with modern, centrally heated houses, and the piano wouldn't give of its best.

Bear in mind also that the room the piano will live in is going to be extended (for this purpose) and we'll probably extend with a conservatory. Before you shout in horror, the piano will be at the opposite end of the room to the conservatory, out of the direct sunlight and the conservatory will be a proper one, with decent temperature control for summer and winter use.

I'm assuming a restoration cost of probably £7-8000, which would get me either a very nice piano from a classic German maker, about 6' originally built maybe 1920 or so. Alternatively, a fairly recent Yamaha C3.

I'd also consider that this might be a halfway step, and I might eventually trade up to a new-ish piano of the perfect type for me. Would you say I'd lose more money on the Yamaha, or on the restored piano in those circumstances?

Thanks again,

Steve

[PianoGuy]

The residual value of an older piano will depend upon what make you choose and more importantly who restored it. As a rule, the only blue chip investments are German Steinways. US Steinways are less sought after because the Shermans don't want 'em back, even though if bought carefully they can be superb. Bosendorfers next, followed by Bluthner. Bechsteins are far more plentiful, and hence are less easy to sell.

The C3 will depreciate drastically if you pay list, but everybody knows you don't need to. A nearly new one will be only slightly cheaper than a new one........... Buy sensibly and you won't take a tumble!

Barrie's suggestion of a 10-15 y.o. European grand is well worth an investigation too, I reckon........

[sirprize]

I wrestled with this choice for three years: whether to buy restored-vintage or recently-built or new. I'd always assumed I'd buy a pre-1914 Bluthner Style 8. I love the Bluthner patent action when set up well and the sound of some of these vintage Bluthners is magical. Unfortunately though I do a LOT of playing and the patent action would become quite a maintenance expense

I then tried recently-built European, English & Asian grands from the 70s to the 90s and there are some nice instruments around but I couldn't find one with that inspiring character and complexity of sound you get from older pianos, nor the build-quality. I very nearly bought a 1992 Schimmel 203, a fine instrument at a very reasonable price, but it just 'didn't do it for me'. Generally speaking I find recent pianos just too bland, too samey which is exactly what they're designed to be

Eventually I discovered by chance an unadvertised 1920s Bechstein 7ft 4in Model C going for the same price as the Schimmel. It had been completely rebuilt and customised (including sostenuto) by a technician I had never heard of. It had the most extraordinary sound and response and I bought it within a few minutes of first playing it. I have always disliked Bechsteins.....I've found them too wooden in sound.....but they do have excellent restorable potential if you're fortunate enough to find a technician who REALLY knows what he's doing. Unfortunately most do not improve Bechsteins when they 'restore' them

For me it used to be a choice between a reliable, predictable work-horse and perhaps a more delicate piano of refinement, character and inspiration. But a properly restored vintage piano will give you the best of both. Also DO try some of the less obvious makes of older grand: Pleyel, Broadwood and Lipp spring to mind among many others

Aim for not more than £10,000 for a well-restored instrument (other than a Steinway that is!). It would have to be spectacularly good to be worth paying more. I have seen pre-1939 restored Bluthners etc for £17,000 but this is a frankly ridiculous price to pay

I would be happy to recommend this piano restorer to you if you email me principal@oxfordschoolofmusic.org.uk

[Nyiregyhazi]

Sounds like a massive gamble to me. When you buy a restored piano you know what is sounds like. When you get a piano and restore it for yourself, you're stuck with it, even if it sounds terrible. Even if it sounds good before any work, it might feasibly sound worse than before the work was done. Changing hammers and strings etc. can destroy the sound of a piano.

Andrew

[David B]

Having recently been through the issue of whether to restore the grand that I had, or replace it, it seemed that restoration was too risky as it wasn't certain what I would end up with at the end. So the old grand went and a near new Yamaha C3 arrived. Its a great piano, and I could actually play it for as long as I had the time. Old pianos are too exhausting as one spends so much time fighting them and their quirks, its rather off putting.

I bought the C3 in a sale, it has a few chips to the finish, so it was ridiculously cheap.