Cadby & Sons piano

[W Fitzpatrick]

Does anyone have info. on a piano manufacturer Chas Cadby & Sons, established 1862 West Kensington, London, England. I have an old upright made by this company,it is in need of repair, I am considering donating it to a historical society, & would love to have some history to associate with it. Hope some one can help. Thanks

[Bill Kibby]

Yes, certainly I know of Cadby, he wa sat the Great Exhibition, and very few of his pianos have come to my attention in forty years. Can you tell me the exact wording on the piano? Adreeses might narrow down the date. I would love to see photos, which you can email to my website by pressing www below.

[W Fitzpatrick]

Does anyone have info. on a piano manufacturer Chas Cadby & Sons, established 1862 West Kensington, London, England. I have an old upright made by this company,it is in need of repair, I am considering donating it to a historical society, & would love to have some history to associate with it. Hope some one can help. Thanks

Thank You Bill for your assistance so far. I have a little more info. from the piano. It has a number 18475 engraver under the manufactures name C.Cadby, there is also ref. to Patent,' Pianoforte Works' and also the words' Londini Honoris Causa'. Does this information allow you to give me any more history on this piano? Thanks Again

[Bill Kibby]

They were not established in 1862, this was the date of the medal received at the London Exhibition, to which the inscription refers. I can supply a booklet about the Cadbys and their pianos for twelve pounds, but no serial number dates are available.

CADBY & SONS
In 1874, coinciding with the move to Hammersmith the company became known as Charles Cadby & Sons.

Circa 1876 seems to be a good estimate for any piano bearing the name Chas. Cadby & Sons.

By 1878 Kelly’s Directory of Middlesex lists them as Charles Cadby & Co. again.

[Bill Kibby]

How interesting, do you have any information on Cadby pianos from the family point of view?

[Bill Kibby]

To me they are fascinating, I I would love to hear anything you can tell me about yours, especially any numbers inside the top, and the exact wording of labels. As for value, see

http://www.pianohistory.info/booklets.html

[M Playford]

Does anyone have info. on a piano manufacturer Chas Cadby & Sons, established 1862 West Kensington, London, England. I have an old upright made by this company,it is in need of repair, I am considering donating it to a historical society, & would love to have some history to associate with it. Hope some one can help. Thanks

Thank You Bill for your assistance so far. I have a little more info. from the piano. It has a number 18475 engraver under the manufactures name C.Cadby, there is also ref. to Patent,' Pianoforte Works' and also the words' Londini Honoris Causa'. Does this information allow you to give me any more history on this piano? Thanks Again

I am author of article about Charles Cadby and my wife is a direct descendant. We are interested in detail of every Cadby piano we hear about in order to compile a listing which will allow us to provide owners with some detail of age and build of their instruments. This does not involve any charge at all. Our current list covers Cadby pianos from about 1850 to near closure of the company in 1884. In addition to serial number imprinted at top of frame on uprights it is helpful to have detail of gilt name scroll on underside of lid over keys. A photo and location will be appreciated as we have found Cadby pianos around the world. Number 18475 was manufactured at the Cadby Hall works in Hammersmith probably around 1877. A personal reply with your postal address would allow me to send more information. Mark Playford[/quote]

[M Playford]

Gentlemen,

As it happens, there is a piano quite similar to the one described by Mr. Fitzpatrick at my parents house.

Do either of you have an idea of the value of such a piano today?

Thanks.

Please read my reply to W Fitzpatrick as this also applies to your interseting enquiry. I look forward to hearing details of your parents Cadby piano
Mark Playford

[Bill Kibby]

Cadby moved to Liquorpond Street, and in 1864, is listed at 3, 33a, 38 & 39 Liquorpond Street EC. The premises were demolished in 1874, and your piano mentions the 1862 exhibition, so it is after that, and a rough estimate would seem to be circa 1870. Read on...

[Bill Kibby]

Almost all pianos were originally capable of being tuned to the pitch which is now the International Standard, and there is no standard answer about what pitch it should be tuned to, that depends on inspection by the tuner.

Backcloths were not all made the same colour, but most, in my experience, are a dirty grey colour now! The most common arrangement is that strips of wood around the edges hold the backcloth in place, and most people now staple the cloth before re-fitting these.

[M Playford]

Hi I have a Cadby Piano. The serial number is 11946. It has been in my family for at least 60 years, probably longer and maybe since it was bought.

Its very out of tune and have had a tuner out but he was unsuccessful, so will try someone else.

It is very dear to me as it was my granny's and I can't play but used to love visiting her and playing chopsticks on it! Its keys are worn but in a nice way. It has brass on the foot pedals and brass candlesticks at the side. It used to have red material on the front and possibly lattice fretwork. my mum remembers this and it has been replaced about 50 years ago with a simple wooden insert. It has simple wooden handle at the back to carry it. It looks like it is made of Rosewood.

It has markings stating that it was manufactured for Patterson and Sons, Buchanan St Glasgow. It has a Cadby transfer under the lid which says 1862 Lonodini and Honoris Ca USA. the adress is 3 33a 38 39 Liquorpond Street. It lived at least some of its life in Campbeltown, Argyll.

Let us know your email address and I can send pictures. Would anyone know the date of this piano?

I am sorry to have taken so long to pick up your enquiry about the Cadby upright piano, number 11946. The date of manufacture of this instrument was after the 1862 Exhibition and almost certainly before 1868. A later Cadby sales catalogue quotes the options of Walnut or Rosewood only, so I feel sure you are right to describe your piano as the latter. It is sad that the front panel has been replaced as the fretwork on many of his pianos was quite intricate, but nice that the candlesticks have survived.
Patterson and Sons would have been a distributor for Charles Cadby and the transfer saying “manufactured for” was common practice at that time. As for the wording on the right hand face of the 1862 London Exhibition medal “Honoris Causa” - the word causa is latin for a cause.
Please read private message so that I can mail to you more Cadby information and history
Mark Playford

[elda]

Hello, I have a Cadby piano at home, Madrid (Spain). Its serial number is 19822. It has another inscription made by hand that says "# 113" (I don´t know if that´s important). My grandmother bought it from an anticuary as a gift for my marrying, so it has a very high sentimental value, but it´s in not good tune. The cloth in the front of the piano is red, and of course is dyed from time. I would like to have more information about my piano. Thank you very much.

[Bill Kibby]

I'm sorry, I did answer your enquiry, but my reply has disappeared. The number suggests that the piano was made around 1879. If you email me, I can quote a price for printing general information about Cadby, or compile a report on the piano from photos.

[vanda]

I too have a Charles Cadby upright piano that we bought 45 years ago for $30 - just because it had a beautiful case - I think rosewood. We were told at the time that its frame was wood and warped, so it was not worth restoring. We had the same information from a tuner recently. I nevertheless had a yet to restore it 'some day', or at least try to find out who brought it to Australia, as it probably came out with some of our pioneers in the 1800s, amongst whom my ancestors were remarkable for leaving a lot of information (not about pianos, except they did play them and left hand-written music!).

But my daughter came from interstate recently and pinched the keys to use in making jewellery. This stimluated me to finally get round to searching on-line for any info that might help my understanding. What I would like to know is how do you tell that a frame is warped? And am I silly to want to restore this pretty piano? As a wood carver I could well use parts of it, but that would give me great pain. The innards really are in a bad state, with some hammers/strikers missing, and of course the felts the remnants of generations of moth parties.

I have uploaded photos to imageshack http://imageshack.us/ as suggested in your advice to newcomers. The code is 50c149eedcf5146bc8d4cc680606f0fc (vanda).

My piano is numbered (stamped) 5749. It was made by Charles Cadby (no sons), and the addresses given are 42 New Bond St for the showroom and 38 & 39 Liquorpond St for the manufacture. I can find no other words inside or outside, just the pencilled number '5749' in a couple of places and a printed note to tuners to remove a certain board before attempting to remove keys.

It would be excellent if you could help me understand when my piano is likely to have been made, how to tell if a frame is warped, and whether I am silly to have a yen to restore it! Thank you.

[vanda]

There are a couple of dates with possible signatures (illegible), which are well hidden and seem to be tuners' records. One seems to say 'KEN Oct 1 1926'. The other seems to say 'J E Hart(xxx)st Oct 1 '08 Mr Fox Albert st Gr(x)a?n(xx)'.
The timber is very light, fine and compact grained, and looks similar to other furniture we have here that is made of cedar. Is is partly veneered and has some pretty carving, signs of attachment of a small pair of candlebra, and I'm guessing is rosewood, or maybe cedar (reddish hue).

I have put all the images together on ImageShack with Forum Code:






.
Thanks again.

[Bill Kibby]

The published numbers for Cadby are misleading, and would suggest that the piano was made around 1851, but the Bond Street address is unknown until after 1855. The lower half shows that this is a Victorian London Cottage piano, and the fancy carvings at the tops of the legs would put it close to the 1860s, probably between 1854-1875. The top front panel would originally have been fancy fretwork backed with silk, but this has been replaced by a plain wood panel and some unauthentic mouldings.

As to the frame being warped, I have no way of knowing what was meant, or what effect it might have upon the piano. I don't even know what the person meant by the "frame" because people often use the word wrongly. Ask your tuner to have a look.

[vanda]

Thank you Bill.
Doesn't sound from your reply that there would be a lot of point in trying to restore it??

In Australia to my understanding, what we refer to as the frame is that part of the interior across which the strings are attached and tensioned. In modern pianos this is made of metal. Apparently in antique ones this is made of wood. My guess was that the tuner thought this to be warped on hearing the quality of the note or perhaps some limitation of range. To my ear, apart from being out of tune and undamped, it didn't sound too bad to me on striking the wires in sequence, so I wondered.
What would you mean by 'frame'?
Regards, Vanda

[Bill Kibby]

The frame is exactly what you describe, but people use te term to describe specific parts of the frame, or of the outer casework. The whole piano is built onto the frame, so major warping could affect just about every aspect of the mechanical workings, the tonal quality, tuning, etc..

Victorian pianos are (sadly) worth so little that major restoration is rarely worth the cost. I was in Scarborough last week, and by an amazing coincidence, stepped off the street to allow a car to pass, and found myself looking at a Cadby, apparently waiting by the dustbins to be dumped.

[Colin Nicholson]

From a "restoration" point of view, probably beyond any kind of economical repair or restoration 'internally'. I attempted to tune a similar piano to this about 5 years ago, and had to walk away! Yes, the 'frame' - so to speak; (on this piano I tuned, the harp-shaped 'cast iron' frame - lookalike, was wooden!) and the piano was a growling major 3rd below concert pitch. Perhaps this piano might suite Lepidoptera better?
A warped frame is not repairable, and the only way to tell its condition is to just listen to the piano & its attempt at being tuned. I suppose the word 'frame' is misleading as Bill says - perhaps a better term could be invented so not to confuse it for the framework at the back of the piano - i.e. back posts.

Also noticed the heavy chalk marks on the oblong tuning pins - a sign of very loose tuning pins & cracks in the wrest plank?, and some may have been driven in further to get a better grip?

Certainly not a job for the faint-hearted, but nevertheless, an attractive looking cottage piano.
The damper rail appears to be upside down? is it being restored, or just checked over?

[vanda]

Oh well ... maybe I should start looking at it as a collection of recyclable parts. All this had come up because I am about to move house & downsize. We have 3 pianos and 2 small organs. Maybe the Cadby would in the long run be happier being reincarnated as ear-rings and small pieces of furniture like fancy boxes or something. Don't suppose there is a parts market - or maybe EBay could discover one!


Colin, the damper rail was upside-down because many of the little damper thingies are broken and fall off into the bowels of the instrument if you right it. Having said that, I just collected them all up, put them in a jar and put it back together properly. I don't see obvious cracking in what I think you mean as the wrest plank - I'm not familiar with the correct terms for all these parts. I see what you mean about the chalk.
Speaking of Lepidoptera, I also found evidence of an ancient Mus domesticus party.
Probably won't, but if I had a pattern to go on I do have the skills to make a new fretwork panel. Bill are you saying that the pretty carved mouldings round the insert are non-authentic? If so, what would have been there before to frame the fretwork?

Cheers
V

[Bill Kibby]

Yes, the problem we would have with rescuing a piano like this for display is that it has been altered, and the most decorative thing about it has been removed!

[vanda]

Thanks Bill. Will pass on to my daughter.

[andrew]

I have just bid for a wreck piano from Mr Cadby on Aussie eBay. It has that same heavy Victorian carving around a panel of darker wood. Its possible that there was a pleated cloth inset originally, I'll know when I pick the instrument up. The action (presumably sticker type) is missing, no bother as the piano is being used for parts, ie oblong tuning pins, soundboard timber, wrestplank veneer, case veneer and carcass wood. nothing will be wasted. I build fortepiano copies.
As far as restoration is concerned, these upright bicord pianos produce a sweet tone and often are able to be brought up to a usable pitch. The wooden frame itself is quite robust, the probems are in the pinblock with worn tuning pin holes and in the action with worn-out leather hinges and subsequently loose and missing parts.

[Bill Kibby]

Interestingly, although people often refer to "worn" wrestpin holes, my long and detailed research shows no evidence that there is any significant wear caused by tuning, no matter how frequent, and it is actually the deterioration of the timber that results in the loose pins. More specifically, it is the loss of resin from the wood that is the main cause, and the biggest threat is direct heat. Keeping an old piano in direct sunlight, or within five feet of a heater, will almost certainly raise the temperature to a point where the resin evaporates, causing serious, permanent, irreparable damage to the timber. Why five feet?

"EXPERIENCE PRECEDES THEORY" - Bill Roope 1964

[Bill Kibby]

If you are in Britain, and don't manage to find a home for the Cadby, let me know.

[MarkGoodwinPianos]

Interestingly, although people often refer to "worn" wrestpin holes, my long and detailed research shows no evidence that there is any significant wear caused by tuning, no matter how frequent, and it is actually the deterioration of the timber that results in the loose pins. More specifically, it is the loss of resin from the wood that is the main cause, and the biggest threat is direct heat. Keeping an old piano in direct sunlight, or within five feet of a heater, will almost certainly raise the temperature to a point where the resin evaporates, causing serious, permanent, irreparable damage to the timber. Why five feet?

"EXPERIENCE PRECEDES THEORY" - Bill Roope 1964

Just a quick message to say THANKS for a very useful post
Regards,
Mark

[Krisja]

Hello,

Fascinated reading this thread.... I'm just trying to help my mum clear out some antiques from her house, including her old Charles Cadby piano. It would really help if we could put an approx value to it - however I understand from previous comments & linked articles that this is not straight forward.

I'll post some photos once uploaded. It would be great to find out approx age, it looks very ornate and would seem fairly early as serial number is 9584. However, it looks like it has the newer address on the gold seal.

Thanks for your help,

Krisja.

[Krisja]

Just emailed you some photos...

[Bill Kibby]

There seems to be a time-warp somewhere! This is not my website, your email and the photos arrived with me before your post arrived here. As I said when you emailed (not knowing you had anything to do with the forum) this is a typical Cottage Piano, as described at
http://pianohistory.info/victorian.html

That page explains that this style of leg is mainly found in and around the 1860s, but this piano may be a little later, perhaps around 1873. The firm was known as "Cadby & Sons" from about 1874 to 1877, so this probably pre-dates 1874. There may be dates inside it, see
http://pianohistory.info/datemarks.html

The published dates of Cadby serial numbers are wrong, so although it is interesting to me to know the number, it doesn't help you. The name transfer mentions the medal that Cadby received at the 1862 London Exhibition, so the piano was made after that event, but probably not long after. See
http://pianohistory.info/exhibition.html

There are various misleading statements on the net about Cadby's addresses, for example Liquorpond Street is in Gray's Inn Road, it is not a separate address.

You don't say where you are in the world, but here in Britain, unrestored Victorian pianos have very little value, and I am offered several each year for nothing, to rescue them from destruction. I saw a similar Cadby waiting by a dustbin, it's sad that so much history is just thrown away. If you deliver to my door I might offer £30.

[Krisja]

Thanks for your reply.

Yep it is a shame. We'll either donate it or sell to a good home. The piano is in Northants, so think we'll have to find somewhere a little closer.

[MRSMYTH]

We have a Cadby Square Grand here in Wicklow, Ireland. We are renovating/rescuing our current home so are looking to sell it. Any information on year and value would be greatly appreciated.. The piano has been moved to storage and the only numbers found are 5798 & 3588B on the tuning board. Apart from surface rust on the strings the piano appears to be in very good condition overall
More photos to follow.

Thank you

Ber

[Bill Kibby]

The company was known as "Cadby & Sons" between 1874 and 1877, so if that is the exact name on the piano, it is one of the few reliable clues to date. It looks like just "Charles Cadby" from what I can see.

Number 5798 suggests something nearer the 1850s, but the date of the design is difficult to guess, I'd say about 1858.

Can you give me the complete, exact wording on the piano?

Nobody anywhere can guess the value or condition of a piano without inspecting it on the spot, and tuning it, so your local tuner is the best person to ask about that.

If you delivered it to Great Yarmouth I would offer you forty pounds, and thirty is often a good guide to unrestored antique pianos. I am offered several each year for nothing, just to save them from destruction, but we are running out of space!

[karenh]

I came across your site when attempting to find out something about this old Cadby piano that somehow made its way to the USA. My husband bought it at a furniture auction (no one bid on it, so he bought it for $10 just because he liked the looks of it). Thank you for the information on your site regarding the manufacturer history--I now know something about the piano and now know that I need to look in other spots for additional informational markings besides those in the attached pictures.

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piano 3a.jpg (18.25 KiB) Viewed 37097 times

[Bill Kibby]

It is a Victorian cottage piano, perhaps late 1860s?
http://www.pianohistory.info/victorian.html

If you want to search for clues inside the piano, have a look at
http://www.pianohistory.info/datemarks.html

Is there any chance we could see bigger photos? I can't make out much detail at that size! If it is easier you can email to me to post.

[karenh]

Thank you for the reply. I will email you the pictures so you can see them in a larger format.

[Bill Kibby]

The reference to the 1862 exhibition shows that the piano was made after that event, as explained at
http://www.pianohistory.info/exhibition.html
Some internet references to when Cadby was at Liquorpond Street are misleading. The longer number suggests that the piano was made around 1867.