Hi everyone - I'm a first time poster and am looking for some advice on next steps for a recently purchased a 6' 6 1/2 '' Collard & Collard parlor/boudoir grand in an estate sale here in Atlanta, GA. Bill from the Piano History Center has kindly dated it to perhaps the late 1870's. It has a serial number of #12317. My main reason for buying it was sentimental as we owned a C&C grand piano growing up in Ireland and I had never seen one in the US. It is mostly playable right now and I intend to get it refurbished professionally.
My principal questions are:
1) Music Stand: The piano I have has a home-made music stand that is clearly not original. I am more familiar with the classic carved fret that appears to be on 95% of C&Cs I see online and as we had at home. However, in the one or two examples of C&C's of this style with the simple pedestal (see point 2 below) I have been able to find online it is a much simpler design - at least on the portion of the music stand that stands up. See the url below to see an example. My question is, either way, I would like to replace what I have. The total dimension is 52 1/2 inches wide with the center portion (not including where the candles would stand - I don't know the proper term) where the actual stand rises is 39 inches. My question to this group is - is there a second-hand parts market that buys/sells old piano parts like this? How can I tap into it?
2) Pedestal: Secondly - mentioned above, is the simple pedestal (see url below). On this I am just curious to know if anyone has seen these C&C pedestals before and if that would help date the piece or shed light on why they might have not used the more elaborate and common lyre-style (and music desk) . It certainly looks plainer and makes me think was the piano model designed/meant for a plainer setting - e.g. a school or something? I'd be interested to hear what this group thinks.
3) Wheels: When the piano was moved the movers broke one of the brass castors (all of which looked original). So we took all three wheels off (the wood on another was also cracked) and have it resting for now without it's wheels on moving coasters. They clearly were not delicate in their handling but I'm not that ticked off with them because they did look like they were on their "last legs" in any case. My question here is: Should I try and get them repaired or just get new ones? Again - is there a market out there for original parts and relatedly does having things like non-original wheels significantly affect the value.
Thanks in advance for any advice or direction on any of this. I would like to get a head-start on this before I engage a restorer.
Here is a set of photos of an identical instrument (with what appears to be an original music stand and simple pedal until that I reference above) that I came across on a previous posting here with a serial number of #12908 https://picasaweb.google.com/1079905274 ... redirect=1
Any help in sourcing these parts would include a finder's fees and can be discussed! :)
Warm regards,
Fergal Kearns (Atlanta, GA - originally Galway, Ireland)
1870's Collard & Collard grand - looking for advice & parts
Moderators: Feg, Gill the Piano, Melodytune
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Colin Nicholson
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Re: 1870's Collard & Collard grand - looking for advice & pa
Hi Fergal
Welcome to the forum.
I may be able to help with some of your enquiries, but most of it will be general advice for now, until we can see actual photos of your own piano - those taken in a similar fashion to the link. Reason being, there may be some conflict between your descriptions on items on your piano, which appear different on the link piano (which may be about 10 years younger than your piano?) . I'll explain as I go along.
Unless I am corrected, there is no such place as a piano "scrap yard" or old piano spares shop I'm afraid. Some piano retailers/ piano shops/ restorers do scrap pianos in their back yard, and occasionally keep parts or try to sell the front panels/ concertina music rests (for upright pianos) on Ebay.... so it's a question of just looking around. We've had enquiries like this before.... and you probably will never find another music rest.
Compared to the music rest fret work on the sliding "coasters" - the main music rest does not look original - however I have seen a few H and X shaped music rests on old grands. Sometimes if the fret work is damaged/ pieces missing, it is often replaced. I doubt if you would fine a floral fretted music rest in good condition - if so, it would be sold with the piano. Sometimes a whole 'scrapped' piano has to be bought in order to rob parts!
You will probably need to find a good artisan to hand craft a fretted music rest. Specialised job.
I also noticed on the "identical" piano it has brass music clips to hold back the music book pages.... does yours have this? I think these have been added later. Also check the hinges/ hinge rebates and screws.... do they look original/ well chiselled rebates? slotted screws? Is the H music rest stained & polished the same as the rest?
The pedestal (pedal lyre in UK) looks original .... nothing basic about that; don't forget it's around 1880 - so some straight strung grands of that period had just a standard lyre.... whereas overstrung may be the deluxe 'hour glass' model. The round columned legs on the lyre look very attractive, and the pedals also look original.... possibly wood?
You say that your castors are brass? ...... does that apply to the actual wheels ? .... although you say this piano is identical to yours, the castors on the link have porcelain wheels - not brass. They can possibly be repaired - but need to see photos of the broken parts, and a photo of a good one next to it.... ideally, need to stand in front of the castors with both of them in each hand.... so this part is guess work at the moment. Here in the UK, we can get new castors, however the pummel fittings may need to be modified to fit the legs - if applicable. I also have my own personal "piano engineer" - who makes special piano screws, and at the moment is silver welding two brass pedal caps onto the wrought iron pedal bars.... so let me know if you need a repair doing. Yes, new castors will lose value and its history.... but only if you decide to sell it.
Now then.... the crux.... some new members go very quiet and don't reply when I ask these questions.... they run a mile!! ...... I just need to ask you a couple of questions if that's OK.... as will be explained.
1. Have you had the piano professionally checked over before/ during/ after purchase?
2. Has any attempt been made for the piano to be tuned?
3. Has the internal mechanism & keyboard ever been removed for inspection?
4. Is your piano in better condition? Any broken strings?
(OK - I lied.... 4 questions!)
If your piano is identical to the web piano, I suspect the oblong tuning pins may be wound in with machined threads - so the wrest plank may be cast metal .... and not maple wood. On the photo - it looks metal, but with all the dirt on it, it may be maple in disguise. If it IS metal, you will need to replace the whole wrest plank - a big job. I have tried to tune a couple of old concert grands with metal wrest planks.... and failed miserably as the pins spun backwards/ very loose - and they cannot be driven in a little further to gain more torque, because they were metal threads. If the wrest plank cannot be replaced.... and it is metal.... its a money pit.
Assuming not checked over....
You will also need to have the damper wires checked over (with mechanism removed).... if they are threaded wires (and possibly rusty) .... you'll need very deep pockets. If however they are wires clamped with a grub screw into the damper lever.... they can be restored.
You may need to check with a piano restorer if the piano is actually restorable.... some may walk away and never be seen again. For a piano of this age.... it would probably need a full restoration for everything to work. Don't forget, often a client may say "I would like a quote for refurbishment please" .... when you should be thinking "I would like a quote for a refurbishment.... if it is possible to do so, to this piano" .... you may need to find the right guy for the job.
Hope that helps
Colin
Welcome to the forum.
I may be able to help with some of your enquiries, but most of it will be general advice for now, until we can see actual photos of your own piano - those taken in a similar fashion to the link. Reason being, there may be some conflict between your descriptions on items on your piano, which appear different on the link piano (which may be about 10 years younger than your piano?) . I'll explain as I go along.
Unless I am corrected, there is no such place as a piano "scrap yard" or old piano spares shop I'm afraid. Some piano retailers/ piano shops/ restorers do scrap pianos in their back yard, and occasionally keep parts or try to sell the front panels/ concertina music rests (for upright pianos) on Ebay.... so it's a question of just looking around. We've had enquiries like this before.... and you probably will never find another music rest.
Compared to the music rest fret work on the sliding "coasters" - the main music rest does not look original - however I have seen a few H and X shaped music rests on old grands. Sometimes if the fret work is damaged/ pieces missing, it is often replaced. I doubt if you would fine a floral fretted music rest in good condition - if so, it would be sold with the piano. Sometimes a whole 'scrapped' piano has to be bought in order to rob parts!
You will probably need to find a good artisan to hand craft a fretted music rest. Specialised job.
I also noticed on the "identical" piano it has brass music clips to hold back the music book pages.... does yours have this? I think these have been added later. Also check the hinges/ hinge rebates and screws.... do they look original/ well chiselled rebates? slotted screws? Is the H music rest stained & polished the same as the rest?
The pedestal (pedal lyre in UK) looks original .... nothing basic about that; don't forget it's around 1880 - so some straight strung grands of that period had just a standard lyre.... whereas overstrung may be the deluxe 'hour glass' model. The round columned legs on the lyre look very attractive, and the pedals also look original.... possibly wood?
You say that your castors are brass? ...... does that apply to the actual wheels ? .... although you say this piano is identical to yours, the castors on the link have porcelain wheels - not brass. They can possibly be repaired - but need to see photos of the broken parts, and a photo of a good one next to it.... ideally, need to stand in front of the castors with both of them in each hand.... so this part is guess work at the moment. Here in the UK, we can get new castors, however the pummel fittings may need to be modified to fit the legs - if applicable. I also have my own personal "piano engineer" - who makes special piano screws, and at the moment is silver welding two brass pedal caps onto the wrought iron pedal bars.... so let me know if you need a repair doing. Yes, new castors will lose value and its history.... but only if you decide to sell it.
Now then.... the crux.... some new members go very quiet and don't reply when I ask these questions.... they run a mile!! ...... I just need to ask you a couple of questions if that's OK.... as will be explained.
1. Have you had the piano professionally checked over before/ during/ after purchase?
2. Has any attempt been made for the piano to be tuned?
3. Has the internal mechanism & keyboard ever been removed for inspection?
4. Is your piano in better condition? Any broken strings?
(OK - I lied.... 4 questions!)
If your piano is identical to the web piano, I suspect the oblong tuning pins may be wound in with machined threads - so the wrest plank may be cast metal .... and not maple wood. On the photo - it looks metal, but with all the dirt on it, it may be maple in disguise. If it IS metal, you will need to replace the whole wrest plank - a big job. I have tried to tune a couple of old concert grands with metal wrest planks.... and failed miserably as the pins spun backwards/ very loose - and they cannot be driven in a little further to gain more torque, because they were metal threads. If the wrest plank cannot be replaced.... and it is metal.... its a money pit.
Assuming not checked over....
You will also need to have the damper wires checked over (with mechanism removed).... if they are threaded wires (and possibly rusty) .... you'll need very deep pockets. If however they are wires clamped with a grub screw into the damper lever.... they can be restored.
You may need to check with a piano restorer if the piano is actually restorable.... some may walk away and never be seen again. For a piano of this age.... it would probably need a full restoration for everything to work. Don't forget, often a client may say "I would like a quote for refurbishment please" .... when you should be thinking "I would like a quote for a refurbishment.... if it is possible to do so, to this piano" .... you may need to find the right guy for the job.
Hope that helps
Colin
AA Piano Tuners UK
Colin Nicholson Dip. Mus. CMIT CLCM PTLLS
Piano tuning & repairs. Full UK restoration service
http://www.aatuners.com
Tuition ~ Accompaniment ~ Weddings
http://www.pianotime1964.com
Member of The Guild of Master Craftsmen
Colin Nicholson Dip. Mus. CMIT CLCM PTLLS
Piano tuning & repairs. Full UK restoration service
http://www.aatuners.com
Tuition ~ Accompaniment ~ Weddings
http://www.pianotime1964.com
Member of The Guild of Master Craftsmen
Re: 1870's Collard & Collard grand - looking for advice & pa
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Re: 1870's Collard & Collard grand - looking for advice & pa
Thanks Colin for your quick response and questions. See other posting for more photos and photos here also - thanks for having a look over.
So in response to some of your comments. Absolutely, I'd be prepared to buy the whole hog to get a music stand - and then donate/scrap the rest. As you will see in the attached photos of the actual piano the stand itself looks like a real handyman job so even worse than in the other link I sent (which like I said is similar to other C&Cs I've seen with the "simple" pedestal. The side elements of the stand may be original however and just the stand appears to be the hatchet job? Hopefully you can see from the photos.
On the wheels - unfort. the guys that did the move took them away to see if they were fixable (they are also reputedly the best repair place in Atlanta for pianos this age) - and yes I did notice that most of the collards I have seen were porcelain as in the ones in the link. However the ones on this one were metal of some sort which I thought was odd as I had not seen that on other ones online that I had seen. I am making an assumption that they were original given the state they were in and how they fit but may be wrong.
And yes I am expecting it will be a significant job to restore - but thanks for the heads up that it may be unrestorable. I hadn't really considered that. But I appreciate you having a look at the photos and seeing do you see any clues that might hint at the level of restoration required. And yes, I am locating a couple of experts in the area that have credentials in this age of piano and expect to have them do a thorough review in person but wanted to get a bit educated here first so I can ask the right questions.
In response to your specific questions see here:
1. Have you had the piano professionally checked over before/ during/ after purchase? - am planning to yes.
2. Has any attempt been made for the piano to be tuned? - not yet, was expecting to have a restorer look at it first but if you think differently let me know.
3. Has the internal mechanism & keyboard ever been removed for inspection? Not that I am aware of. Just got it a week ago.
4. Is your piano in better condition? Any broken strings? Have a look at the photos let me know what you think! :) No broken strings and I would say 80 out of 85 of the keys "work" in that they produce a note and don't stick. A couple move but get stuck and a couple don't create any action at all. I would say most keys are "roughly" in tune and the rest way off.
Thanks again for your advice and expertise on this!
Fergal
So in response to some of your comments. Absolutely, I'd be prepared to buy the whole hog to get a music stand - and then donate/scrap the rest. As you will see in the attached photos of the actual piano the stand itself looks like a real handyman job so even worse than in the other link I sent (which like I said is similar to other C&Cs I've seen with the "simple" pedestal. The side elements of the stand may be original however and just the stand appears to be the hatchet job? Hopefully you can see from the photos.
On the wheels - unfort. the guys that did the move took them away to see if they were fixable (they are also reputedly the best repair place in Atlanta for pianos this age) - and yes I did notice that most of the collards I have seen were porcelain as in the ones in the link. However the ones on this one were metal of some sort which I thought was odd as I had not seen that on other ones online that I had seen. I am making an assumption that they were original given the state they were in and how they fit but may be wrong.
And yes I am expecting it will be a significant job to restore - but thanks for the heads up that it may be unrestorable. I hadn't really considered that. But I appreciate you having a look at the photos and seeing do you see any clues that might hint at the level of restoration required. And yes, I am locating a couple of experts in the area that have credentials in this age of piano and expect to have them do a thorough review in person but wanted to get a bit educated here first so I can ask the right questions.
In response to your specific questions see here:
1. Have you had the piano professionally checked over before/ during/ after purchase? - am planning to yes.
2. Has any attempt been made for the piano to be tuned? - not yet, was expecting to have a restorer look at it first but if you think differently let me know.
3. Has the internal mechanism & keyboard ever been removed for inspection? Not that I am aware of. Just got it a week ago.
4. Is your piano in better condition? Any broken strings? Have a look at the photos let me know what you think! :) No broken strings and I would say 80 out of 85 of the keys "work" in that they produce a note and don't stick. A couple move but get stuck and a couple don't create any action at all. I would say most keys are "roughly" in tune and the rest way off.
Thanks again for your advice and expertise on this!
Fergal
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Colin Nicholson
- Executive Poster
- Posts: 1704
- Joined: 04 Jul 2010, 19:15
- Location: Morpeth, Northumberland
- Contact:
Re: 1870's Collard & Collard grand - looking for advice & pa
Hi Fergal
The tuning pins on your piano are the standard "square tapered" .... like all modern pianos of today (not oblong in shape like that of piano B).... but perhaps caused by 'patina' it is difficult to determine if the wrest plank (that's the huge length of wood the pins are driven into) is maple or metal/ or even metal plated at this stage. Where the strings ride over the top bearing cloth/felt.... if you pull part of that away, and scratch the surface/ or use a magnet/ it may tell you.
Music rest does look a bit THIN! .... could be plywood? Is it veneered? Symmetrical? Also need to see behind the music rest/ fixtures/ hinges/ screw heads etc. If the wood grain doesn't match the rest of the piano, or the music rest 'coasters' .... it may be a lemon. It is quite common for the side rests to get re-polished on grands. Like yours - candle wax has dripped. If drinks are put here/ white circles appear/ veneer lifting etc.... it can be impossible to tell the original finish if re-polished.
Depending on how the castor has broken, if the barrel (hub) has broken - a new one will need to be machined..... can't just be 'repaired' . I don't see any reason why the castors would not be original.... unless previously broken.
The dampers and strings/ hammer heads look original.... but what lurks inside is a different matter.
Also, there is no such thing as a "Collard &Collard 1870s restorer" .... no restoration college or institute will just have provisions for restoring or providing old parts for these pianos. If the damper blocks are threaded wood, and the wires are threaded into them.... if they break, then they must be hand crafted. Similar to a water pump eccentric shaft on a 1900s vintage car.... machinery doesn't exist any more. So your restorer will need to be a dab hand at making piano parts from scratch..... no college teaches that.... just years of experience.
During an inspection/ assessment, the restorer will need to actually tune some of your piano (as though you had booked a tuning only) ...... this is to assess the tuning pins and their torque/ feel. If the pins feel very spongy, loose or do not hold their pitch.... then a new wrest plank would be recommended (if maple).... but that's a big job. Of course, any piano 140 years old is a huge risk.... and it will always need to be restrung. If you get it restrung, the dampers must also be replaced and parts of the mechanism must be refurbished to match the new strings.... e.g. hammer head felts refaced or replaced. For a piano of its age, there may or may not be any options given regarding the 'level' of restoration.... there's no inbetween in my eyes. Fort example, if a client just wanted their piano restrung, but refused the mechanism work (esp dampers) .... I wouldn't do it.... walk away.... too much 'come back' if things went wrong.... you may be recommended an "all or nothing" approach.... depending on your budget. If the piano was a 100 years younger.... it's still old to a piano restorer!!
The pedal lyre looks original.... not sure why it is not bolted to the bulkhead under the piano? .... are the bolts missing? .... a piano removal team should have done this as part of the service.
The best way is to book your appointment.... I wouldn't reply too much here on a forum about getting "fired up" and ready for an inspection.... the assessment will be fascinating, and you'll learn such a lot from it. Thanks for the photos.... but they don't reveal the sound/ proper condition of the parts.... just a general idea.
Good luck with your music rest searching.... a nice looking piano. If you didn't pay a lot for it.... don't be too down-hearted if its not restorable. The "question" you should have asked originally over the phone was "I am about to buy/ look at a C&C .... can you check it over for me".... so any potential problems/ unrestorable parts.... or basically the restorer reading you the "legal pack" .... would make you decide there and there.... buy it/ .... or walk away.
The tuning pins on your piano are the standard "square tapered" .... like all modern pianos of today (not oblong in shape like that of piano B).... but perhaps caused by 'patina' it is difficult to determine if the wrest plank (that's the huge length of wood the pins are driven into) is maple or metal/ or even metal plated at this stage. Where the strings ride over the top bearing cloth/felt.... if you pull part of that away, and scratch the surface/ or use a magnet/ it may tell you.
Music rest does look a bit THIN! .... could be plywood? Is it veneered? Symmetrical? Also need to see behind the music rest/ fixtures/ hinges/ screw heads etc. If the wood grain doesn't match the rest of the piano, or the music rest 'coasters' .... it may be a lemon. It is quite common for the side rests to get re-polished on grands. Like yours - candle wax has dripped. If drinks are put here/ white circles appear/ veneer lifting etc.... it can be impossible to tell the original finish if re-polished.
Depending on how the castor has broken, if the barrel (hub) has broken - a new one will need to be machined..... can't just be 'repaired' . I don't see any reason why the castors would not be original.... unless previously broken.
The dampers and strings/ hammer heads look original.... but what lurks inside is a different matter.
Also, there is no such thing as a "Collard &Collard 1870s restorer" .... no restoration college or institute will just have provisions for restoring or providing old parts for these pianos. If the damper blocks are threaded wood, and the wires are threaded into them.... if they break, then they must be hand crafted. Similar to a water pump eccentric shaft on a 1900s vintage car.... machinery doesn't exist any more. So your restorer will need to be a dab hand at making piano parts from scratch..... no college teaches that.... just years of experience.
During an inspection/ assessment, the restorer will need to actually tune some of your piano (as though you had booked a tuning only) ...... this is to assess the tuning pins and their torque/ feel. If the pins feel very spongy, loose or do not hold their pitch.... then a new wrest plank would be recommended (if maple).... but that's a big job. Of course, any piano 140 years old is a huge risk.... and it will always need to be restrung. If you get it restrung, the dampers must also be replaced and parts of the mechanism must be refurbished to match the new strings.... e.g. hammer head felts refaced or replaced. For a piano of its age, there may or may not be any options given regarding the 'level' of restoration.... there's no inbetween in my eyes. Fort example, if a client just wanted their piano restrung, but refused the mechanism work (esp dampers) .... I wouldn't do it.... walk away.... too much 'come back' if things went wrong.... you may be recommended an "all or nothing" approach.... depending on your budget. If the piano was a 100 years younger.... it's still old to a piano restorer!!
The pedal lyre looks original.... not sure why it is not bolted to the bulkhead under the piano? .... are the bolts missing? .... a piano removal team should have done this as part of the service.
The best way is to book your appointment.... I wouldn't reply too much here on a forum about getting "fired up" and ready for an inspection.... the assessment will be fascinating, and you'll learn such a lot from it. Thanks for the photos.... but they don't reveal the sound/ proper condition of the parts.... just a general idea.
Good luck with your music rest searching.... a nice looking piano. If you didn't pay a lot for it.... don't be too down-hearted if its not restorable. The "question" you should have asked originally over the phone was "I am about to buy/ look at a C&C .... can you check it over for me".... so any potential problems/ unrestorable parts.... or basically the restorer reading you the "legal pack" .... would make you decide there and there.... buy it/ .... or walk away.
AA Piano Tuners UK
Colin Nicholson Dip. Mus. CMIT CLCM PTLLS
Piano tuning & repairs. Full UK restoration service
http://www.aatuners.com
Tuition ~ Accompaniment ~ Weddings
http://www.pianotime1964.com
Member of The Guild of Master Craftsmen
Colin Nicholson Dip. Mus. CMIT CLCM PTLLS
Piano tuning & repairs. Full UK restoration service
http://www.aatuners.com
Tuition ~ Accompaniment ~ Weddings
http://www.pianotime1964.com
Member of The Guild of Master Craftsmen
Re: 1870's Collard & Collard grand - looking for advice & pa
The wrest pins seem to be square to me and as Colin says make sure they are not threaded into an iron wrest plank.Try to drive them in and the plank will irretrievably crack.
Personally, if it were me,before you do anything else,I would hire a tuner/ technician to look it over,tune it if possible,repair any faulty notes as best as possible at first and then assess as to whether it has the potential to be economically restored.
Bear in mind it will have no commercial value but could be a fun and rewarding project
Personally, if it were me,before you do anything else,I would hire a tuner/ technician to look it over,tune it if possible,repair any faulty notes as best as possible at first and then assess as to whether it has the potential to be economically restored.
Bear in mind it will have no commercial value but could be a fun and rewarding project
Our mission in life is to tune customers--not pianos.
Any fool can make a piano-- it needs a tuner to put the music in it
www.lochnesspianos.co.uk
Any fool can make a piano-- it needs a tuner to put the music in it
www.lochnesspianos.co.uk
Re: 1870's Collard & Collard grand - looking for advice & pa
Thanks Colin and Vernon. Just a couple of comments based on your feedback. ***Please excuse my amateur terms below as I get a crash course on the lingo.
Yes - I will be having an "expert" come out to have a look at it in person in the next couple of weeks hopefully and will send an update on what they conclude. In the meantime for what it's worth, these are some of the questions I still have:
- the wrest plank appears to be iron and part of the entire iron unit that spans the length and breadth of the entire interior. It's the same unit that is stamped with the C&C and the serial number. I wasn't clear if you were saying that is potentially a good thing or bad? Colin - you were saying that if it was maple and had to be replaced it would be costly. Vernon - you were cautioning if the pins were threaded into an iron one.
- Vernon - thank you for the recommendation on attempting to get it tuned first. Can I expect the tuner to also attempt to "fix" the 3-4 keys that don't make the hammer head move sufficiently to create a note? Like I said more than 80 of the 85 keys actually produce a note (with some a lot more in tune than others). A few are "sticky" and the hammer doesn't go back fully or quickly but they do "play".
- Colin - on the music rest I am fairly sure right now at least that the unit frame including the side rests is original but the music rest itself is an old replacement. It was shipped to the US according to the owner at the end of the 19th C and so it could well have been replaced eons ago or even broken in transit. But it just doesn't feel right. So for now that's the assumption I'll make and will look to replace.
- Colin - on the lyre and why it is not attached. When they broke the wheel we removed all three and so it is lower to the ground so we put it to the side for now. Actually on that note - should I expect the movers NOT to break the wheels given they should have been more careful with a piano this age and legs of this design? I saw how they hiked the piano over to a severe angle every time they took off a leg and that must put tremendous pressure on the leg - which it did obviously.
- Colin - I didn't have a chance to have someone inspect before I bought as the estate sale was closing but your advice is still good. FYI I paid about 450 pounds for the piano (he was chancing his arm and looking for about 1500 sterling) and I expected at the time (naively or not) to spend double or triple that to restore it. Let's see what they come back with...
Lastly - As I interview the two/three possible restorer options I have here in Atlanta what would you recommend are the two/three key questions I should ask to determine if they have the experience to work on a model like this?
Thanks again guys. Really appreciate it.
Fergal
Yes - I will be having an "expert" come out to have a look at it in person in the next couple of weeks hopefully and will send an update on what they conclude. In the meantime for what it's worth, these are some of the questions I still have:
- the wrest plank appears to be iron and part of the entire iron unit that spans the length and breadth of the entire interior. It's the same unit that is stamped with the C&C and the serial number. I wasn't clear if you were saying that is potentially a good thing or bad? Colin - you were saying that if it was maple and had to be replaced it would be costly. Vernon - you were cautioning if the pins were threaded into an iron one.
- Vernon - thank you for the recommendation on attempting to get it tuned first. Can I expect the tuner to also attempt to "fix" the 3-4 keys that don't make the hammer head move sufficiently to create a note? Like I said more than 80 of the 85 keys actually produce a note (with some a lot more in tune than others). A few are "sticky" and the hammer doesn't go back fully or quickly but they do "play".
- Colin - on the music rest I am fairly sure right now at least that the unit frame including the side rests is original but the music rest itself is an old replacement. It was shipped to the US according to the owner at the end of the 19th C and so it could well have been replaced eons ago or even broken in transit. But it just doesn't feel right. So for now that's the assumption I'll make and will look to replace.
- Colin - on the lyre and why it is not attached. When they broke the wheel we removed all three and so it is lower to the ground so we put it to the side for now. Actually on that note - should I expect the movers NOT to break the wheels given they should have been more careful with a piano this age and legs of this design? I saw how they hiked the piano over to a severe angle every time they took off a leg and that must put tremendous pressure on the leg - which it did obviously.
- Colin - I didn't have a chance to have someone inspect before I bought as the estate sale was closing but your advice is still good. FYI I paid about 450 pounds for the piano (he was chancing his arm and looking for about 1500 sterling) and I expected at the time (naively or not) to spend double or triple that to restore it. Let's see what they come back with...
Lastly - As I interview the two/three possible restorer options I have here in Atlanta what would you recommend are the two/three key questions I should ask to determine if they have the experience to work on a model like this?
Thanks again guys. Really appreciate it.
Fergal
Re: 1870's Collard & Collard grand - looking for advice & pa
Comment moved below with picture.
Last edited by fkearns on 07 Nov 2014, 21:07, edited 1 time in total.
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Colin Nicholson
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Re: 1870's Collard & Collard grand - looking for advice & pa
music rest photos.... looks like a replacement.... but time consuming to access the file/ holiday snaps! then switch back (over & over again) to your numbered comments.... so best to leave that for now.... that's cosmetic - not important now. Best to attach the photo here with comments next to it (like I do).... or like your photos.
It may be full iron framed, covering the maple wrest plank (hoping) - thought was too early for that design.... however, to determine if it's a complete iron frame - combined - (dreaded) iron wrest plank, remove the fallboard (1) (it should just lift off easily) - push the music rest back or remove.... then crouch down and look under the "wrest plank" (2) - see arrow .... the wrest plank is behind the cross member and easily viewed underneath. If maple - then fine. See diagram below ....
Take a photo of the front of the mechanism in situ, (see arrow pointing to the hammer rest rail) - this might help us to determine the mechanism design & faults. I suspect an early spring & loop action. If so, if a spring and/or loop may have broken.... that note/ hammer cannot be tuned during that visit.... parts will need to be taken away. Hammer returning slowly - could need re-pinning - job that can be done on site. Depending on costa spring length/ attachment - may need to be hand made. If loop has broken - needs to be drilled out and replaced - about 30-40 mins work in the workshop. Sometimes a makeshift loop can be made
It may be full iron framed, covering the maple wrest plank (hoping) - thought was too early for that design.... however, to determine if it's a complete iron frame - combined - (dreaded) iron wrest plank, remove the fallboard (1) (it should just lift off easily) - push the music rest back or remove.... then crouch down and look under the "wrest plank" (2) - see arrow .... the wrest plank is behind the cross member and easily viewed underneath. If maple - then fine. See diagram below ....
Take a photo of the front of the mechanism in situ, (see arrow pointing to the hammer rest rail) - this might help us to determine the mechanism design & faults. I suspect an early spring & loop action. If so, if a spring and/or loop may have broken.... that note/ hammer cannot be tuned during that visit.... parts will need to be taken away. Hammer returning slowly - could need re-pinning - job that can be done on site. Depending on costa spring length/ attachment - may need to be hand made. If loop has broken - needs to be drilled out and replaced - about 30-40 mins work in the workshop. Sometimes a makeshift loop can be made
- Grand action model
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Re: 1870's Collard & Collard grand - looking for advice & pa
Thanks I'll look into that over the weekend. Don't know what happened to photo. Retrying to attach again here.
Here is a photo of the back of the music stand and here's my guess at what is original and not (would be interested to hear what people think):
Original: 1 and 2 I believe are original.
Might be Original: 4 and 6 - it looks original and in the same patina so I am think it is original.
5 - is the music stand itself and just looks like a different color, style and doesn't relate to the grooves at point 3 (see below).
I'm not sure what the grove at point 3 was but I know it was where the little brass clips on the front of the music stands that held the paper back would have been. I figured this out from looking at photos from other stands on this model at the time.
Here is a photo of the back of the music stand and here's my guess at what is original and not (would be interested to hear what people think):
Original: 1 and 2 I believe are original.
Might be Original: 4 and 6 - it looks original and in the same patina so I am think it is original.
5 - is the music stand itself and just looks like a different color, style and doesn't relate to the grooves at point 3 (see below).
I'm not sure what the grove at point 3 was but I know it was where the little brass clips on the front of the music stands that held the paper back would have been. I figured this out from looking at photos from other stands on this model at the time.
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Re: 1870's Collard & Collard grand - looking for advice & pa
let the tech tune the piano and fix the broken notes on the spot if possible.
If it is a spring and loop action with a couple of loops broken, you are looking at replacing the lot.
If the piano tunes ok then all you have to do is decide if you want to go ahead to restore it with the advice of the tech,hoping he is competent..
As I'm up here in Loch Ness Monster Land in Scotland I can't help you further.
If it is a spring and loop action with a couple of loops broken, you are looking at replacing the lot.
If the piano tunes ok then all you have to do is decide if you want to go ahead to restore it with the advice of the tech,hoping he is competent..
As I'm up here in Loch Ness Monster Land in Scotland I can't help you further.
Our mission in life is to tune customers--not pianos.
Any fool can make a piano-- it needs a tuner to put the music in it
www.lochnesspianos.co.uk
Any fool can make a piano-- it needs a tuner to put the music in it
www.lochnesspianos.co.uk
Re: 1870's Collard & Collard grand - looking for advice & pa
Thanks guys - I didn't realize it was so easy to get to the mechanism. Attached are photos and another matching serial number I had not seen with "J WELLS" and an additional "899" there. Anyone know what that is by chance and who J WELLS might be?
Here's looking for good news!
Here's looking for good news!
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- collard and collard additional serial number
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- collard and collard mechanism2
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- Collard and Collard mechanism1
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Re: 1870's Collard & Collard grand - looking for advice & pa
J Wells are possibly the action makers (don't know where the photo was taken - too close).... bit like Jaguar using a rover engine. The serial number will probably be 'dotted' about - not unusual to see it on the action rail - so when the piano was built, all the parts matched the right piano. The number 899 will be the action number, and/or the cabinet/stock number.... these numbers cannot be traced - only the factory kept records. When certain cabinet parts are removed, e.g. front key rail/ legs/ key frame.... this number 899 may be written in pencil.... also, these numbers may be punched into the wood on the first 2 piano keys.... (when the action is pulled out). Various artisans would be building parts of the cabinet.... say factory 1, and another factory would assemble the keyboard.... then all the 899 parts come together to make your piano.
The mechanism is the spring & loop .... very primitive - and possibly beyond economical repair. The wishbone springs (A) at the front assist the jack's return after the escapement. This action has another set of springs (B) - I call them "swan neck" springs.... elongated springs that resemble costa springs - and possibly pass through an elongated eye in the jack. Under the hammer knuckle is the loop cord.... where the swan's 'beak' is hooked onto. Very common for the cotton loops to break - and just crumble into dust/ and/or the beaks have broken off....so the jack won't reset back under the hammer knuckle.... and just aimlessly stays out of striking point. If some notes are 'weak' to play.... then it won't be long before the next loop breaks, and the springs will have lost their tension.... so the jack tip will only just catch the edge of the hammer knuckle. The springs B and loops of cotton is what gives the action its name "spring and loop" (later was known as the simplex action) .... work fine when all loops connected to their springs, but once the loops break, the note stops working.... these actions became obsolete around 1967 I think.... however - a piano mechanism about 130 years old may not be easily serviced and regulated.
There may be a hundred other things aswell. I've noticed some of the set-off dollies (small wooden dowels at the front) have been replaced.... and even the replaced ones are cracked - and the set-off screws are all over the place, and badly bent with wear & tear. Where the springs (A) are located.... often the coils/ leaf of the springs are pinned & bushed (like springs A) .... and those small fragile spring wooden flanges often break away from their tenon joint due to loose/ dry glue joints.... if the beads of glue around the edges of the flanges crack.... and bits of glue fall off, they eventually work loose, and the mechanism stops working properly - as there is no resistance for the spring. Bit like a rusty hole at the top of a suspension unit on a car.
Some of the glue beads look OK at the front.... could have been dabbed with glue recently.... oh, when I say 'recently' - it couild have been 50 years ago! Other glue joints will be the jack knuckles/ jack spring tabs etc.
I would also recommend new hammer shanks - the hammer heads may be saved, depending on condition.
I also suspect the damper wires ARE threaded, and the levers are attached to the damper blocks with leather straps.... so a massive job there to restore.
Depending on which notes are not working, if they are around middle C area (down to F and/or up to G) .... then forget the tuning .... all the middle notes must work properly and repeat played heavily .... like tapping a space bar several times. I myself would be very reluctant to remove the mechanism - could all be warped & bowed with age. The hammers will be separate to the undercarriages (similar to a Bluthner patent action) .... and it may be a can of worms to work on.... various adjusting screws may also be seized up. The action looks very erratic and uneven.... so will probably need a complete refurbishment before tuning. Best you advise (and warn) your tuner it has swan-necked jack return springs.... and they can only be hand made. Tell them your budget aswell. When you ask them for a full recon price.... make sure you are sat down. Your tuner may need to wear his underwear on the outside of his trousers.... and slip his red cloak on to work on those mechanisms.... and plenty cups of coffee
Let me know about the "terminator" wrest plank!?
Here is a diagram to put you in the picture.
Colin
The mechanism is the spring & loop .... very primitive - and possibly beyond economical repair. The wishbone springs (A) at the front assist the jack's return after the escapement. This action has another set of springs (B) - I call them "swan neck" springs.... elongated springs that resemble costa springs - and possibly pass through an elongated eye in the jack. Under the hammer knuckle is the loop cord.... where the swan's 'beak' is hooked onto. Very common for the cotton loops to break - and just crumble into dust/ and/or the beaks have broken off....so the jack won't reset back under the hammer knuckle.... and just aimlessly stays out of striking point. If some notes are 'weak' to play.... then it won't be long before the next loop breaks, and the springs will have lost their tension.... so the jack tip will only just catch the edge of the hammer knuckle. The springs B and loops of cotton is what gives the action its name "spring and loop" (later was known as the simplex action) .... work fine when all loops connected to their springs, but once the loops break, the note stops working.... these actions became obsolete around 1967 I think.... however - a piano mechanism about 130 years old may not be easily serviced and regulated.
There may be a hundred other things aswell. I've noticed some of the set-off dollies (small wooden dowels at the front) have been replaced.... and even the replaced ones are cracked - and the set-off screws are all over the place, and badly bent with wear & tear. Where the springs (A) are located.... often the coils/ leaf of the springs are pinned & bushed (like springs A) .... and those small fragile spring wooden flanges often break away from their tenon joint due to loose/ dry glue joints.... if the beads of glue around the edges of the flanges crack.... and bits of glue fall off, they eventually work loose, and the mechanism stops working properly - as there is no resistance for the spring. Bit like a rusty hole at the top of a suspension unit on a car.
Some of the glue beads look OK at the front.... could have been dabbed with glue recently.... oh, when I say 'recently' - it couild have been 50 years ago! Other glue joints will be the jack knuckles/ jack spring tabs etc.
I would also recommend new hammer shanks - the hammer heads may be saved, depending on condition.
I also suspect the damper wires ARE threaded, and the levers are attached to the damper blocks with leather straps.... so a massive job there to restore.
Depending on which notes are not working, if they are around middle C area (down to F and/or up to G) .... then forget the tuning .... all the middle notes must work properly and repeat played heavily .... like tapping a space bar several times. I myself would be very reluctant to remove the mechanism - could all be warped & bowed with age. The hammers will be separate to the undercarriages (similar to a Bluthner patent action) .... and it may be a can of worms to work on.... various adjusting screws may also be seized up. The action looks very erratic and uneven.... so will probably need a complete refurbishment before tuning. Best you advise (and warn) your tuner it has swan-necked jack return springs.... and they can only be hand made. Tell them your budget aswell. When you ask them for a full recon price.... make sure you are sat down. Your tuner may need to wear his underwear on the outside of his trousers.... and slip his red cloak on to work on those mechanisms.... and plenty cups of coffee
Let me know about the "terminator" wrest plank!?
Here is a diagram to put you in the picture.
- CollardGrandAction
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Re: 1870's Collard & Collard grand - looking for advice & pa
additional photo if it helps.
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- action detail
Re: 1870's Collard & Collard grand - looking for advice & pa
Thanks Colin just seeing your response now. I have a guy coming to see the piano tomorrow evening let's see what he can see up close. Thanks for the detail. I'll get back to you.
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Re: 1870's Collard & Collard grand - looking for advice & pa
Good luck with that. It's not so much the problems with the piano - if you can pay for them.... it will be down to the fact that if the tuner/ technician takes one look at it.... he might walk away.... so you may be onto your fourth or fifth tuner before the penny eventually drops. The action and keyboard need to be removed completely to get a bird's eye view.... get a large blanket to sit it on top of your piano, or have a large table, about 6ft X 4ft near the piano. Make sure there is about 6ft area in front of the piano for removal of the action. A risky job, and your tech guy will probably need your verbal permission to remove it.... that's if the skeleton framework is not badly warped or bowed.... otherwise it may be a write-off. 
or a nice piece of furniture
but many actions of this era are written off and not economical to repair.... so your £4.5K could be spent purely on just the mechanism alone. Keeping fingers crossed for you. If there are major problems - sell it - get another piano.... and have it checked over this time before buying. Simply forget serial numbers/ wheels/ music rests/.... these are just cosmetics & history. Good luck.
or a nice piece of furniture but many actions of this era are written off and not economical to repair.... so your £4.5K could be spent purely on just the mechanism alone. Keeping fingers crossed for you. If there are major problems - sell it - get another piano.... and have it checked over this time before buying. Simply forget serial numbers/ wheels/ music rests/.... these are just cosmetics & history. Good luck.
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Re: 1870's Collard & Collard grand - looking for advice & pa
You may be interested in reading this thread......
http://www.piano-tuners.org/piano-forum ... f=3&t=9678
was posted in 2012.... all about those troublesome dampers on Collards.
A lot of detail here including the damper blocks.... the heart of the problem.
Hope you find it useful.
Ahem.... not heard from them since!
re: your photo.... I would recommend that the bass bi-chord dampers are upgraded with wedge felts.... showing flat/ stitched plain felt on your photo; damper lift will need to be adjusted, but from previous stories (and Barrie's comment in the other thread).... there is little down-weight on these dampers - and the damping is generally rubbish.
Colin
http://www.piano-tuners.org/piano-forum ... f=3&t=9678
was posted in 2012.... all about those troublesome dampers on Collards.
A lot of detail here including the damper blocks.... the heart of the problem.
Hope you find it useful.
Ahem.... not heard from them since!
re: your photo.... I would recommend that the bass bi-chord dampers are upgraded with wedge felts.... showing flat/ stitched plain felt on your photo; damper lift will need to be adjusted, but from previous stories (and Barrie's comment in the other thread).... there is little down-weight on these dampers - and the damping is generally rubbish.
Colin
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Re: 1870's Collard & Collard grand - looking for advice & pa
Thanks Colin. I'll have to read that posting you sent over the weekend. I had a guy come out yesterday and this was his assessment of what he could do for us within budget below. He felt the piano was in pretty good shape and needed to be regulated to get it to a standard that we would be happy with - but that he felt that would do it. He confirmed the wrest plank was fully metal and his assessment was the pin block and pins were in good shape and that the strings would need to be cleaned but not replaced. I know it's hard to judge from afar but is there any reason to believe he is not in the ballpark?:
1. Refile & Reshape hammer heads on piano
2. Replace felts on and realign dampers
3. Replace rail felt
4. Regulate action and repair non working/sticking keys
5. Tuning in shop to concert pitch (A440)
6. Clean & polish piano inside & out including soundboard
1. Refile & Reshape hammer heads on piano
2. Replace felts on and realign dampers
3. Replace rail felt
4. Regulate action and repair non working/sticking keys
5. Tuning in shop to concert pitch (A440)
6. Clean & polish piano inside & out including soundboard
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Re: 1870's Collard & Collard grand - looking for advice & pa
The list of work seems a bit limited.... but if you have a budget to stick to, that's fair enough.
It might just be a matter of time before more loops need replacing, when the piano starts to be used again.
Iron wrest plank then.... so the piano will probably never be restrung.... even if you asked for it to be done - as new wrest pins would have to be hand machined.
Was the action removed? .... I can see the point about replacing the hammer rail baize.... this will help the regulation.
Just keep fingers crossed the damper wires are removed successfully. I'm not 100% convinced the cleaning of the strings will help much.... won't improve the tone or tuning.... maybe assist in the new dampers seating.... but replacing the bass damper felts with flat felt.... well.... see what happens. I would also need to partly rely on the sustain pedal attached and working to double check the simultaneous lift.... so you may need to castors back on.
Did your guy check the hammer buckskins? .... if going to reface them.... then aligning up old grooved leathers with the jacks may prove to be difficult to regulate.
Is the piano being taken away? .... you said it was to be tuned in the shop?
I'm sure it will play better than it is now - let us know when it's finished.
It might just be a matter of time before more loops need replacing, when the piano starts to be used again.
Iron wrest plank then.... so the piano will probably never be restrung.... even if you asked for it to be done - as new wrest pins would have to be hand machined.
Was the action removed? .... I can see the point about replacing the hammer rail baize.... this will help the regulation.
Just keep fingers crossed the damper wires are removed successfully. I'm not 100% convinced the cleaning of the strings will help much.... won't improve the tone or tuning.... maybe assist in the new dampers seating.... but replacing the bass damper felts with flat felt.... well.... see what happens. I would also need to partly rely on the sustain pedal attached and working to double check the simultaneous lift.... so you may need to castors back on.
Did your guy check the hammer buckskins? .... if going to reface them.... then aligning up old grooved leathers with the jacks may prove to be difficult to regulate.
Is the piano being taken away? .... you said it was to be tuned in the shop?
I'm sure it will play better than it is now - let us know when it's finished.
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Re: 1870's Collard & Collard grand - looking for advice & pa
Thanks Colin. Yes, it will be taken to a shop to be re-regulated/refurbished. I have another guy coming out this week to give his assessment and I'll get back to you.
Yes, have a budget but I have some flexibility. If it makes sense to put an additional few more bob into it to get it to a perceptible difference in quality and longevity I'd do it but I have to start somewhere!
I am going to compile a list of recommendations, potential risks, and questions based on this thread and the one you sent on and provide it to him before he starts - so thanks for all your input and wisdom there.
In answer to your question - the action was NOT removed just visibly inspected from above and with the fallboard removed and don't know if you can inspect the hammer buckskins without removing the action.
Yes, have a budget but I have some flexibility. If it makes sense to put an additional few more bob into it to get it to a perceptible difference in quality and longevity I'd do it but I have to start somewhere!
I am going to compile a list of recommendations, potential risks, and questions based on this thread and the one you sent on and provide it to him before he starts - so thanks for all your input and wisdom there.
In answer to your question - the action was NOT removed just visibly inspected from above and with the fallboard removed and don't know if you can inspect the hammer buckskins without removing the action.
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Re: 1870's Collard & Collard grand - looking for advice & pa
I am concerned about your last paragraph. During any assessment (free or not), the whole mechanism & keyboard must be pulled out and inspected in detail... the hammers need to be lifted up in the air (and resting vertically unless looped) to inspect the buckskin leathers, as they are underneath and out of view..... or use a mirror & torch.
Unless the buckskins have been replaced at some point (viewed just to the right of the red circle) - these will be badly perished/ dusty and worn/ deep grooves where the jacks strike. There are also the back check leathers to inspect/ hammer tails - again, action must be removed to see their condition.
When the mechanism is removed, then you can inspect the damper assembly right at the back inside the piano. Myself - I would probably ask the customer's permission if I could do a "simulated" one-off damper wire removal on-site - and if necessary, use my pen blow torch (if needed) to loosen one of the wire threads.... it may or may not unseize/ break off inside the block/ wooden block threads splitting - whatever.... then if the worst scenario happened (while you were watching) - it would be a simple yes/no decision about replacing the damper felts.
Personally, I would strongly recommend you to have the mechanism FULLY reburbished. Your 'guy 1s' version of a refurb just seems to be a general "emergency repair" .... and no real need to remove the whole piano. Giving that I cannot see your mechanism (and nor did your guy!) .... my estimate would be to have the following work done:-
Hammers >> Remove flanges/ reface heads / replace buckskin leathers (and possibly underfelts)/ roughen tails/ re-pin hammers/ check flange bushings (if female connections)
Undercarriages / jacks >> remove/ repin jacks & levers / liquid graphite / replace 'wishbone' springs / un-seize and test movement of regulating screws prior to assembly (easier to crack off rust when they are in your hand).
Keyboard >> Replace back check leathers/ check key bushings / clean out & vacuum key frame & key bed / burnish and polish ivories/ level & space keys / check key dip (regulation)
Dampers >> (if easily removed/ no issues) >> remove & unwind damper wires (pre-assessment).
If problems such as seizures/ rusty threads / cracked blocks.... replace as best you can, and ignore the rest >>
(only if Ok) - remove all 65? dampers / old felts & backing felts (red). Clean & polish ebony topped damper heads / upgrade bass single felts to clip felt (concave) / upgrade bass bi-chords to wedge felt (convex) / upgrade first 3 or 4 treble dampers to split wedge / check LEATHER hinge straps (replace as necessary) / re-bush damper wire guide rails / polish damper wires / clean with wire wool - damper wire threads. If damper blocks break - advise customer.
Assembly / regulation / tuning - (only to concert pitch if strings look OK).... assemble pedal lyre to check damper lift.
Tuning sometimes requires the use of the sustain pedal - using arpeggios/ sustained chords etc to test the equal temperament scale - especially on old strings/ inharmonicity / false beats occurring. Sometimes tuned "musically" instead of "scientifically" .... depending on condition.
(Then if enough out of the budget.... cosmetics/ sound improvement) >> clean & polish strings/ warm water & detergent - clean soundboard with belly steel bar - dry immediately to prevent strings rusting / clean cast iron frame / 'dry' clean and vacuum wrest pin areas.
Test the piano out with some Beethoven!
There are other things aswell - but that gives you a rough idea.... timescale = about 3-4 weeks.
I know you may be cautious, and perhaps just starting with a basic "do up and play" for now.... but don't forget Fergal.... no matter how much money you spend, with it having a cast iron wrest plank.... your piano is a ticking time bomb - waiting to explode under 18 tons of pressure.... if the temperature & humidity is not right in your home.... one day it could be tuned (even just after a refurb/ been there, got the T shirt!) .... and if those wrest pins act up/ loosen / won't tune.... it's game over..... then it's a massive restoration.
Temperature should be about 16 - 18 C .... humidity about 55% / keep away from direct heat & light.... at least 5ft away from a radiator/ heater in any direction. Pianos prefer a cool room.
Unless the buckskins have been replaced at some point (viewed just to the right of the red circle) - these will be badly perished/ dusty and worn/ deep grooves where the jacks strike. There are also the back check leathers to inspect/ hammer tails - again, action must be removed to see their condition.
When the mechanism is removed, then you can inspect the damper assembly right at the back inside the piano. Myself - I would probably ask the customer's permission if I could do a "simulated" one-off damper wire removal on-site - and if necessary, use my pen blow torch (if needed) to loosen one of the wire threads.... it may or may not unseize/ break off inside the block/ wooden block threads splitting - whatever.... then if the worst scenario happened (while you were watching) - it would be a simple yes/no decision about replacing the damper felts.
Personally, I would strongly recommend you to have the mechanism FULLY reburbished. Your 'guy 1s' version of a refurb just seems to be a general "emergency repair" .... and no real need to remove the whole piano. Giving that I cannot see your mechanism (and nor did your guy!) .... my estimate would be to have the following work done:-
Hammers >> Remove flanges/ reface heads / replace buckskin leathers (and possibly underfelts)/ roughen tails/ re-pin hammers/ check flange bushings (if female connections)
Undercarriages / jacks >> remove/ repin jacks & levers / liquid graphite / replace 'wishbone' springs / un-seize and test movement of regulating screws prior to assembly (easier to crack off rust when they are in your hand).
Keyboard >> Replace back check leathers/ check key bushings / clean out & vacuum key frame & key bed / burnish and polish ivories/ level & space keys / check key dip (regulation)
Dampers >> (if easily removed/ no issues) >> remove & unwind damper wires (pre-assessment).
If problems such as seizures/ rusty threads / cracked blocks.... replace as best you can, and ignore the rest >>
(only if Ok) - remove all 65? dampers / old felts & backing felts (red). Clean & polish ebony topped damper heads / upgrade bass single felts to clip felt (concave) / upgrade bass bi-chords to wedge felt (convex) / upgrade first 3 or 4 treble dampers to split wedge / check LEATHER hinge straps (replace as necessary) / re-bush damper wire guide rails / polish damper wires / clean with wire wool - damper wire threads. If damper blocks break - advise customer.
Assembly / regulation / tuning - (only to concert pitch if strings look OK).... assemble pedal lyre to check damper lift.
Tuning sometimes requires the use of the sustain pedal - using arpeggios/ sustained chords etc to test the equal temperament scale - especially on old strings/ inharmonicity / false beats occurring. Sometimes tuned "musically" instead of "scientifically" .... depending on condition.
(Then if enough out of the budget.... cosmetics/ sound improvement) >> clean & polish strings/ warm water & detergent - clean soundboard with belly steel bar - dry immediately to prevent strings rusting / clean cast iron frame / 'dry' clean and vacuum wrest pin areas.
Test the piano out with some Beethoven!
There are other things aswell - but that gives you a rough idea.... timescale = about 3-4 weeks.
I know you may be cautious, and perhaps just starting with a basic "do up and play" for now.... but don't forget Fergal.... no matter how much money you spend, with it having a cast iron wrest plank.... your piano is a ticking time bomb - waiting to explode under 18 tons of pressure.... if the temperature & humidity is not right in your home.... one day it could be tuned (even just after a refurb/ been there, got the T shirt!) .... and if those wrest pins act up/ loosen / won't tune.... it's game over..... then it's a massive restoration.
Temperature should be about 16 - 18 C .... humidity about 55% / keep away from direct heat & light.... at least 5ft away from a radiator/ heater in any direction. Pianos prefer a cool room.
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Colin Nicholson Dip. Mus. CMIT CLCM PTLLS
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Colin Nicholson
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Re: 1870's Collard & Collard grand - looking for advice & pa
Some last-minute advice .... if useful......
Let the technician tell YOU about potential risks - not other way round.... if your guy is doing the job properly, he will know the risks and tell you. Wait to hear about the risks of damper blocks/ threaded wires / dry and brittle wood - causing parts to crack open & split in two when stripped down.
Don't just rely on "repair the non working notes" .... that's not good enough - find out the cause of the problem - ask your guy to check by working the mechanism outside the piano/ have the action removed (would you accept a mechanic just peering through the bonnet air vent to diagnose a problem??)
Don't suggest a budget before he starts looking - ask for a full refurb price and consider later. If you suggest a cheap budget price before - then they won't spend any time on it.... just like your guy 1.
Get three separate quotes.
Ask about their previous work.... have they restored pianos of this age successfully? ask for customer references.... the guy should be able to give you a list. Previous customers are always obliged to 'sell' a restorer and lay out the red carpet for prospective new customers to use him. Alternatively, ask to see some restoration photos/ customer reviews / feedback comments. If it's a shop.... ask WHO is doing the work - preferably the guy standing in front of you!
Maker sure the mechanism/ keyframe etc is thoroughly checked for previous INSECT or ARACHNID DAMAGE.... and always have the mechanism removed fully to check for old insect droppings/ maggot shells/ holes tunnelled through fine cloth and felt parts. Check the hammer leathers & other parts as listed..... these are basic.
Get your guy to come back another day if needed - and do a simulation damper removal -- while you are watching -- to determine if the damper wires unwind ok .... that's if they are threaded without grub screws.
A 'simulation' is a removal and relocation process that carries risk, and one normally done in the workshop. Aim to do the odd note in the extreme octave ends - where parts are more exposed to the elements. Other simulations are things like a hammer/ undercarriage removal/ repin a flange (the tool exerts pressure on the wood - and can cause the part to crack open) .... also - simulate a one-note regulation process .... turning screws/ adjusting set-off for one note/ adjust back-check etc.... so get one note working perfectly.... your technician will hopefully do this without being prompted. However - if you suggest a low budget price before, these tasks may not be done - for obvious reasons.
Check parts generally for cracks in the wood - especially flanges (I've seen a few on your photos) .... with temp & humidity changes, the wood will be very old and brittle.... slight changes will start a crack off.... the part may still work OK under the resistance of the screw fixture while tight in its housing, but once the screws are loosened off- the part may simply split into two halves.... (very common on upright damper flanges).... and upright/grand regulation screws.
Make sure you receive a pro forma in the post a few days later, detailing every repair.
never trust a fixed price.... quotations should always be estimated for that age of piano.... so get a to-from price.
Ask if photos are taken during the refurb? email updates? .... remember - the price is always estimated until the point of everything stripped down in the workshop.... when the parts are laid out in order - that's stacked 5 high - 17 rows of parts = 85 hammers 85 undercarriages about 65 dampers.... THEN the correct price revealed. If you expect a technician to just an exact price before or during the assessment stages.... then expect it to be miles out. Respect those that say "however long it takes.... we will let you know the price"
fergal.... a few years ago, I had my living room ceiling re-lined/ some plastering/ decorated etc.... and a few repairs done to the plaster coving.... I went on holiday for a week, and expected it done when I returned. I was quoted an est. £250.00. When I returned.... there were acro bars supporting parts of the ceiling/ major major repairs done (house dated 1898).... and the final bill was about £900.... that's £700 more than the quote...... I was absolutely fine about that - and it's common practise.... the decorator didn't expect half the ceiling to come crashing down on his head. I was slightly annoyed he had not rung me to explain.... and was slapped with a big bill.... it was paid no problem.... but since then, we did a lot more work with him, and appreciated the level of the "unknown" behind repairs...... this is exactly the same with pianos.
Hope that helps.
Let the technician tell YOU about potential risks - not other way round.... if your guy is doing the job properly, he will know the risks and tell you. Wait to hear about the risks of damper blocks/ threaded wires / dry and brittle wood - causing parts to crack open & split in two when stripped down.
Don't just rely on "repair the non working notes" .... that's not good enough - find out the cause of the problem - ask your guy to check by working the mechanism outside the piano/ have the action removed (would you accept a mechanic just peering through the bonnet air vent to diagnose a problem??)
Don't suggest a budget before he starts looking - ask for a full refurb price and consider later. If you suggest a cheap budget price before - then they won't spend any time on it.... just like your guy 1.
Get three separate quotes.
Ask about their previous work.... have they restored pianos of this age successfully? ask for customer references.... the guy should be able to give you a list. Previous customers are always obliged to 'sell' a restorer and lay out the red carpet for prospective new customers to use him. Alternatively, ask to see some restoration photos/ customer reviews / feedback comments. If it's a shop.... ask WHO is doing the work - preferably the guy standing in front of you!
Maker sure the mechanism/ keyframe etc is thoroughly checked for previous INSECT or ARACHNID DAMAGE.... and always have the mechanism removed fully to check for old insect droppings/ maggot shells/ holes tunnelled through fine cloth and felt parts. Check the hammer leathers & other parts as listed..... these are basic.
Get your guy to come back another day if needed - and do a simulation damper removal -- while you are watching -- to determine if the damper wires unwind ok .... that's if they are threaded without grub screws.
A 'simulation' is a removal and relocation process that carries risk, and one normally done in the workshop. Aim to do the odd note in the extreme octave ends - where parts are more exposed to the elements. Other simulations are things like a hammer/ undercarriage removal/ repin a flange (the tool exerts pressure on the wood - and can cause the part to crack open) .... also - simulate a one-note regulation process .... turning screws/ adjusting set-off for one note/ adjust back-check etc.... so get one note working perfectly.... your technician will hopefully do this without being prompted. However - if you suggest a low budget price before, these tasks may not be done - for obvious reasons.
Check parts generally for cracks in the wood - especially flanges (I've seen a few on your photos) .... with temp & humidity changes, the wood will be very old and brittle.... slight changes will start a crack off.... the part may still work OK under the resistance of the screw fixture while tight in its housing, but once the screws are loosened off- the part may simply split into two halves.... (very common on upright damper flanges).... and upright/grand regulation screws.
Make sure you receive a pro forma in the post a few days later, detailing every repair.
never trust a fixed price.... quotations should always be estimated for that age of piano.... so get a to-from price.
Ask if photos are taken during the refurb? email updates? .... remember - the price is always estimated until the point of everything stripped down in the workshop.... when the parts are laid out in order - that's stacked 5 high - 17 rows of parts = 85 hammers 85 undercarriages about 65 dampers.... THEN the correct price revealed. If you expect a technician to just an exact price before or during the assessment stages.... then expect it to be miles out. Respect those that say "however long it takes.... we will let you know the price"
fergal.... a few years ago, I had my living room ceiling re-lined/ some plastering/ decorated etc.... and a few repairs done to the plaster coving.... I went on holiday for a week, and expected it done when I returned. I was quoted an est. £250.00. When I returned.... there were acro bars supporting parts of the ceiling/ major major repairs done (house dated 1898).... and the final bill was about £900.... that's £700 more than the quote...... I was absolutely fine about that - and it's common practise.... the decorator didn't expect half the ceiling to come crashing down on his head. I was slightly annoyed he had not rung me to explain.... and was slapped with a big bill.... it was paid no problem.... but since then, we did a lot more work with him, and appreciated the level of the "unknown" behind repairs...... this is exactly the same with pianos.
Hope that helps.
AA Piano Tuners UK
Colin Nicholson Dip. Mus. CMIT CLCM PTLLS
Piano tuning & repairs. Full UK restoration service
http://www.aatuners.com
Tuition ~ Accompaniment ~ Weddings
http://www.pianotime1964.com
Member of The Guild of Master Craftsmen
Colin Nicholson Dip. Mus. CMIT CLCM PTLLS
Piano tuning & repairs. Full UK restoration service
http://www.aatuners.com
Tuition ~ Accompaniment ~ Weddings
http://www.pianotime1964.com
Member of The Guild of Master Craftsmen
Re: 1870's Collard & Collard grand - looking for advice & pa
Ok - so here's a quick update. I had a respected piano tuner/refurbisher come out to look at it this evening. He could have not been any different in his assessment as the first gentleman. This time he did remove the action and do some testing and was very interested on how the whole mechanism worked. He was quite clear however that it was not something he would be prepared to take on, Bill he cautioned on virtually everything you had cautioned on so I trust he knew what he was talking about. The main reasons he gave for not taking it on were: 1) he felt it was outside the competence of his team and himself; 2) he felt it could be a pandora's box to fit and a money pit; 3) he felt speeding $10k on a more modern instrument would sound a hell of a lot better and last longer; 4) he wasn't sure if it was repairable or tune-able. He recommend I stop while I am ahead.
He did attempt to tune the instrument as a test but he said the pins were a LOT smaller than he was used to and didn't have the tools. He felt the majority of the strings were original. He confirmed the wrest plank was indeed WOOD and not wrought iron (which the first guy thought it was). He felt the hammers had moth infestations and would all have to be replaced (vs. refiled and reshaped as the first guy had proposed) but (I think he said this) that he would not know how or it would not be cost effective for him to replace them. He concurred with the list of potential issues that you saw internally. I liked him a lot and can see myself giving him business in the future when we look to get a piano. He also said in his opinion there was a 10-20% chance that you could retune it appropriately but certainly not to A440 pitch as the first guy suggested (he suggested another pitch that I can't recall). So all in all he recommended quit while I was behind.
Having said all that, when he put the action back in and my wife came home she said that she's okay having a go to see if we can tune it as long as we can fix the two-three keys around the middle C area that stick and didn't play. So she got up and played and lo and behold the keys didn't stick anymore!!!! So basically now - there's only a couple of keys at the very top of the scale that don't actually produce a note. Yes, the dampers are cr@p and the thing is way out of tune and the action is a lot "looser" and not even in parts when playing but the old lady's got life in her. She is okay with a "playable" instrument that we play intermittently and is in tune and has a fairly consistent action.
So here are the conclusions I've gotten to: 1) The first guy - while well intentioned - doesn't have a full grasp of the potential pit falls in doing a regulation of this type and the potential issues he might encounter (his fee FYI was for $2500 to do everything outlined in the previous posting); 2) The second guy - while very knowledgable and upfront - would never recommend refurbishing a piano like this for good reason for the reasons above. 3) Given the advice on this board I will have the first guy attempt to do a re-thing but not at A440 and if that works have him attempt the regulation but only with a written contract outlining specifically what he will do for the price and as long as he takes on all liability for the thing being a cluster ....I believe this is what you had essentially recommended Colin - i.e. try and get it retuned and repair the faulty notes as best as possible before jumping in to get it restored.
So - that's where I've landed right now. I'd be interested to hear thoughts and opinions. Thanks again in advance....
He did attempt to tune the instrument as a test but he said the pins were a LOT smaller than he was used to and didn't have the tools. He felt the majority of the strings were original. He confirmed the wrest plank was indeed WOOD and not wrought iron (which the first guy thought it was). He felt the hammers had moth infestations and would all have to be replaced (vs. refiled and reshaped as the first guy had proposed) but (I think he said this) that he would not know how or it would not be cost effective for him to replace them. He concurred with the list of potential issues that you saw internally. I liked him a lot and can see myself giving him business in the future when we look to get a piano. He also said in his opinion there was a 10-20% chance that you could retune it appropriately but certainly not to A440 pitch as the first guy suggested (he suggested another pitch that I can't recall). So all in all he recommended quit while I was behind.
Having said all that, when he put the action back in and my wife came home she said that she's okay having a go to see if we can tune it as long as we can fix the two-three keys around the middle C area that stick and didn't play. So she got up and played and lo and behold the keys didn't stick anymore!!!!
So basically now - there's only a couple of keys at the very top of the scale that don't actually produce a note. Yes, the dampers are cr@p and the thing is way out of tune and the action is a lot "looser" and not even in parts when playing but the old lady's got life in her. She is okay with a "playable" instrument that we play intermittently and is in tune and has a fairly consistent action.So here are the conclusions I've gotten to: 1) The first guy - while well intentioned - doesn't have a full grasp of the potential pit falls in doing a regulation of this type and the potential issues he might encounter (his fee FYI was for $2500 to do everything outlined in the previous posting); 2) The second guy - while very knowledgable and upfront - would never recommend refurbishing a piano like this for good reason for the reasons above. 3) Given the advice on this board I will have the first guy attempt to do a re-thing but not at A440 and if that works have him attempt the regulation but only with a written contract outlining specifically what he will do for the price and as long as he takes on all liability for the thing being a cluster ....I believe this is what you had essentially recommended Colin - i.e. try and get it retuned and repair the faulty notes as best as possible before jumping in to get it restored.
So - that's where I've landed right now. I'd be interested to hear thoughts and opinions. Thanks again in advance....
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Colin Nicholson
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Re: 1870's Collard & Collard grand - looking for advice & pa
Think that has just about covered everything for now. Best stick with tuner 2.... making the right noises..... and what I would expect a technician to say.
There will always be issues with tuning - and unreliable due to the age of the piano & strings. Might need tuning about 3 or 4 times a year if you have a good ear. One of the reasons is because it's straight-strung and the position of the bass bridge near the hitch pins..... a lot of tension/ down-bearing on one end of the piano which causes instability for old pianos' hence over-strung is more reliable & even tension distribution.... that is if the tuning pins are tight, and all structural areas (inside rims/ soundboard/ ribs etc) are solid.
Sticking keys are caused by swelling of the centre chasings mostly (or lower rebates) - either at the top or bottom/both. You may be recommended to have the whole keyboard eased - known as "key easing".... I suspect the top chasings (crescent shaped parts) may not be bushed for that age of piano.... so the centre pins just glide (or snag) on the wood itself. By removing the action may have caused something to loosen slightly.... and if the piano is settled in a warm(ish) room, they will unstick automatically - just enough to work (helped by the gravity weight of the action) .... easing the keys and cleaning/polishing the centre rail pins will ensure good playing.... if a note sticks during a tuning, it has to be eased before continuing. You may also find that quick repetition of notes is poor - this could also be the mechanism combined with tight key bushings.
If the piano is below standard pitch - A440, it can still be tuned at the lower pitch, but rather like listening to a 45 rpm record played at 33 rpm. The "Equal Temperament" scale can still be set at the lower pitch. As your tech 2 guy said.... if the "majority" of the strings are original.... this means that there are some string replacements?? .... there are some prelim jobs to do if you request a pitch raise.... but it's not recommended, and the piano may never ever settle in tune again caused by irreparable damage done to the structural areas, and stretching very old strings beyond their "old" tension.... then it needs to be re-strung if you want to see A440.
Hope it all works out....
There will always be issues with tuning - and unreliable due to the age of the piano & strings. Might need tuning about 3 or 4 times a year if you have a good ear. One of the reasons is because it's straight-strung and the position of the bass bridge near the hitch pins..... a lot of tension/ down-bearing on one end of the piano which causes instability for old pianos' hence over-strung is more reliable & even tension distribution.... that is if the tuning pins are tight, and all structural areas (inside rims/ soundboard/ ribs etc) are solid.
Sticking keys are caused by swelling of the centre chasings mostly (or lower rebates) - either at the top or bottom/both. You may be recommended to have the whole keyboard eased - known as "key easing".... I suspect the top chasings (crescent shaped parts) may not be bushed for that age of piano.... so the centre pins just glide (or snag) on the wood itself. By removing the action may have caused something to loosen slightly.... and if the piano is settled in a warm(ish) room, they will unstick automatically - just enough to work (helped by the gravity weight of the action) .... easing the keys and cleaning/polishing the centre rail pins will ensure good playing.... if a note sticks during a tuning, it has to be eased before continuing. You may also find that quick repetition of notes is poor - this could also be the mechanism combined with tight key bushings.
If the piano is below standard pitch - A440, it can still be tuned at the lower pitch, but rather like listening to a 45 rpm record played at 33 rpm. The "Equal Temperament" scale can still be set at the lower pitch. As your tech 2 guy said.... if the "majority" of the strings are original.... this means that there are some string replacements?? .... there are some prelim jobs to do if you request a pitch raise.... but it's not recommended, and the piano may never ever settle in tune again caused by irreparable damage done to the structural areas, and stretching very old strings beyond their "old" tension.... then it needs to be re-strung if you want to see A440.
Hope it all works out....
AA Piano Tuners UK
Colin Nicholson Dip. Mus. CMIT CLCM PTLLS
Piano tuning & repairs. Full UK restoration service
http://www.aatuners.com
Tuition ~ Accompaniment ~ Weddings
http://www.pianotime1964.com
Member of The Guild of Master Craftsmen
Colin Nicholson Dip. Mus. CMIT CLCM PTLLS
Piano tuning & repairs. Full UK restoration service
http://www.aatuners.com
Tuition ~ Accompaniment ~ Weddings
http://www.pianotime1964.com
Member of The Guild of Master Craftsmen
Re: 1870's Collard & Collard grand - looking for advice & pa
As I read all this my heart sinks as I forsee all the increasing aggravation that is building up.
Personally I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole as nobody is going to be happy-- the client will find it was not all he expected and the technician will be eternally called back for minor adjustments to a defunct instrument--probably for years.
Incidentally, Colin you recommend inspection for "Arachnid damage!" What sort of spiders do you have down in England or is it crabs and lobsters infesting pianos?
Personally I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole as nobody is going to be happy-- the client will find it was not all he expected and the technician will be eternally called back for minor adjustments to a defunct instrument--probably for years.
Incidentally, Colin you recommend inspection for "Arachnid damage!" What sort of spiders do you have down in England or is it crabs and lobsters infesting pianos?
Our mission in life is to tune customers--not pianos.
Any fool can make a piano-- it needs a tuner to put the music in it
www.lochnesspianos.co.uk
Any fool can make a piano-- it needs a tuner to put the music in it
www.lochnesspianos.co.uk
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Colin Nicholson
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Re: 1870's Collard & Collard grand - looking for advice & pa
we usually get knocked down in price money spiders in these neck of the woods.... a prawn at a stretch.... but not posh enough to do crab & lobster ! 
AA Piano Tuners UK
Colin Nicholson Dip. Mus. CMIT CLCM PTLLS
Piano tuning & repairs. Full UK restoration service
http://www.aatuners.com
Tuition ~ Accompaniment ~ Weddings
http://www.pianotime1964.com
Member of The Guild of Master Craftsmen
Colin Nicholson Dip. Mus. CMIT CLCM PTLLS
Piano tuning & repairs. Full UK restoration service
http://www.aatuners.com
Tuition ~ Accompaniment ~ Weddings
http://www.pianotime1964.com
Member of The Guild of Master Craftsmen
Re: 1870's Collard & Collard grand - looking for advice & pa
I am about to dispose of a Collard & Collard Boudoir grand piano serial number 6733, which would suggest it was
made after the one you have. I acquired it some 45 years ago. In the last few years it has not played well, despite much TLC from my piano tuner. I am therefore reluctantly scrapping it as I have been unable to find it a new home.
The music stand is in reasonable condition and measures 51" in length. 3 white chine casters appear to be in good condition.
If any of these items are of interest, I would gladly give them to you if you are prepared to meet the cost of packing and carriage. I live in Dorset, UK.
I have not posted on this site before, but presume that there is some provision to enable members to communicate.
made after the one you have. I acquired it some 45 years ago. In the last few years it has not played well, despite much TLC from my piano tuner. I am therefore reluctantly scrapping it as I have been unable to find it a new home.
The music stand is in reasonable condition and measures 51" in length. 3 white chine casters appear to be in good condition.
If any of these items are of interest, I would gladly give them to you if you are prepared to meet the cost of packing and carriage. I live in Dorset, UK.
I have not posted on this site before, but presume that there is some provision to enable members to communicate.
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Colin Nicholson
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Re: 1870's Collard & Collard grand - looking for advice & pa
Thanks for your information.
I'll try and contact Fergal on his email address on behalf - and prompt him to view your parts list.
Colin
I'll try and contact Fergal on his email address on behalf - and prompt him to view your parts list.
Colin
AA Piano Tuners UK
Colin Nicholson Dip. Mus. CMIT CLCM PTLLS
Piano tuning & repairs. Full UK restoration service
http://www.aatuners.com
Tuition ~ Accompaniment ~ Weddings
http://www.pianotime1964.com
Member of The Guild of Master Craftsmen
Colin Nicholson Dip. Mus. CMIT CLCM PTLLS
Piano tuning & repairs. Full UK restoration service
http://www.aatuners.com
Tuition ~ Accompaniment ~ Weddings
http://www.pianotime1964.com
Member of The Guild of Master Craftsmen
Re: 1870's Collard & Collard grand - looking for advice & pa
Thanks Audrey that is very considerate of you! I'll reach out to you via your email.