Holder Brothers Piano

[Schoie81]

Hi!

I'm new to this forum and new to pianos! I've always wanted to learn the piano but a fear of a lack of musical talent and the lack of space to keep a piano has always put me off. I've recently moved to a bigger house so I now have room and last week I heard of someone giving a piano away for free. I still wasn't sure whether to have it or not, as the first verse of 'Twinkle Twinkle Little Star' is a far as my playing skills extend, but at least one of my children is interested in learning, the piano was free and the person getting rid of it was threatening to smash it to pieces and take it to the tip if no-one had it off him, so I decided to save it from that fate if nothing else.

The piano sounds fine to me - my sister can play a little and she had a 'tinkle' at the weekend and what she played sounded fine. I'm not sure its been too well looked after though - the keys especially have had some 'hammer' as most of them are chipped on the front edge, but as I say, to my untrained ears it sounds ok and to my untrained eye, internally it looks ok, if a little dusty.

Anyway, I'd love to try and find out how old it is. the only markings I can find on it are on the underside of the keyboard lid where it says:-

Est 1847
Holder Brothers Ltd.
Hull.
Also at Grimsby, Bridlington, Goole and Scunthorpe.

There is also what may be a serial number carved into the wood inside the top lid (sorry if this has a more technical name!!)

I've done a bit of searching and from what I've read, Holder Brothers didn't make pianos, merely distributed/sold them and that they were still active up until the 1990s. I've also been told that the number (if it is a serial number) is unlikely to help me date the piano. So can anyone help me date it, or tell me how I might try to do so. Or am I on to a loser....?

Thanks in advance.

[Bill Kibby]

Holder Brothers became Ltd. in about 1888, and the first references I have to them being at Bridlington are around 1905. Have a look at my Edwardian page at

http://pianohistory.info/edwardian.html

That should give you some clues. There is also a Datemarks page

http://pianohistory.info/datemarks.html

if you want to go looking for clues inside the piano. If you could post some photos here, or email them to me to post, it would help to show us what the WHOLE piano looks like.

[Schoie81]

Bill, I'm more than happy to post some pictures - is there any parts of the piano that would particularly help to date it so I know what to take pictures of?

In the meantime I'll have a look at the links you posted.

Thank you.

[Bill Kibby]

Although any interior details may be interesting, what I need first is to see what the WHOLE piano looks like.

The links may suggest other things that could be helpful.

[Schoie81]

Will take some pics then. Have had a quick scan through those pages you linked to - first thing I can tell you from memory that seems to give some indication of age is that is doesn't have 'trusses' below the keyboard, it has columns.

[Schoie81]

Here's some general pictures of the overall piano...

Also, I don't know if it tells you anything but I did look for a date on the keys - couldn't find any sign of anything the could relate to a date, but the top key is stamped on the side with BROOKS LIMITED - presumably the people who made the keys?

[Schoie81]

In the middle of the two square panels on the 'top door' (I'm learning!! ) there are four 'dots in a rectangular shape - you can just about make them out on the pictures I've uploaded. These look to me as if something was fastened to the top door at some point, but they were removed and the holes have been, reasonably neatly, filled?

[Colin Nicholson]

I would guess pre 1920 (possibly earlier - 1910) .... but hundreds of pianos look like this with square tapered legs.

The filled in holes were once sconces fitted.... ornate brass candlesticks. The holes were the brackets themselves, and the "candelabra" (with drip tray & candle holder) simply slotted onto the brackets. Some are worth more than the piano - hence removed!

The numbers are probably 'punched' into the wood, not carved - and will probably be a stock/ cabinet number.... but no dates available.

Open the top lid right back, and to the right & left of the top board (door) will be two wooden turnbuckle tabs.... if you turn these to about 12 o'clock, the front panel should lift off. I'm guessing at this stage, its straight-strung & over-damped (looks like a bird cage inside) .... another sign of early pianos. Also inside the top section, there will be a music book rest.... concertina style - see brass hinges and just swing it out (hence the wood has shown an impression of it with the light)

Brooks were the action & key makers in London.... prior to them becoming Herrburger Brooks (and moving to Derby). Can't remember the date they changed.... Bill will know.

[Schoie81]

Thanks Colin,

I wondered if they might have been for candle holders (thanks to Bill's links), so thanks for confirming that - a shame they've been removed but I guess if they're not needed, and worth something, the temptation is there to sell them off.... And yes, you're right about the numbers being stamped not carved - my poor description!! That's the case for both the number under the top lid, and the "BROOKS LIMITED" on the side of the top key. I've had top and bottom doors/panels off, and had a look inside (not that I really know what I was looking at!!), and, after I discovered yesterday that it came off so easily, the fallboard too.

Out of curiosity, what does 'over-damped' mean?

Finally, yes, the music rest/stand is still there within the top of the piano and still swings out freely.

[Bill Kibby]

Brooks Ltd became Herrburger Brooks in 1920, as you can read at
http://pianohistory.info/numbers.html
so your piano was made before that happened, but probably not much earlier, perhaps around 1918?

Dampers are the soft felt pads that stop the strings when you release a note. Overdampers are placed above the hammers, modern pianos have underdampers - below the hammers. There are diagrams at
http://pianohistory.info/actions.html

The photos demonstrate very well that if you strip all the polish off, you find that there is a multitude of different timbers, colours and grains, which originally would have been disguised by putting fake grain in the French polish to make them all seem the same.

[Schoie81]

Thank you both of you. So I can pretty safely say, its around 100years old. I've been told to leave it a few weeks after being moved to a new house before getting it tuned, but will get someone out to look at it a) with a view to tuning and b) to advise me on its general condition. Slightly worried that I might get told it needs £100s worth of repairs doing now!!

One thing you might be able to tell me - in the bottom of the piano is a bar heater hung on two wires. I assume with double glazing and central heating keeping houses at a reasonably consistent temperature these days, would it be ok to remove this? Looking at the wiring coming from it, I'm not sure I'd want to plug it in anyway - it has definitely seen better days! Would it have had this in when built in the early 1900s or would this have been added later? Also, the cloth on the rear of the piano is in a very poor state. I've had a look and this looks like one repair I am capable of doing myself - any suggestions as to what material I should use as a replacement?

[Bill Kibby]

The heater is probably a Damppchaser, and its purpose was to raise the temperature inside the piano to at least a degree higher than the room temperature, to prevent condensation, which causes all kinds of problems. A light bulb was another way of doing this. Nowadays, we worry less about condensation, and more about dry heat, as explained at
http://pianohistory.info/central.html

The task of replacing the back-cloth is a simple, straightforward one, by unscrewing the wooden frame that holds it in, stapling a cloth to the framework, and screwing it back. Some makers used a fine wire mesh, but any sort of cloth will do.

Its purpose was supposed to be to keep dust out, but in a way, it makes it harder to clean the back, and many people just do away with it. I am not convinced that it keeps mice out, and it certainly doesn't stop insects.

[Colin Nicholson]

A cotton bed sheet would do for the back.... but as Bill says, they sometimes gather more dust & don't always keep insects out (they can also get in under the keyboard). I usually remove it if its torn, and if the customer buying the piano wants a sheet fitted - its an optional extra.

Send a photo of the piano with front removed/ fallboard removed so we can see the strings & damper formation. If looking at the piano, if the left & right key blocks (pieces of wood just next to the bottom & top notes) are the same width - about 3cm each, it may be straight strung. If the left key block is wider (about 7cm).... it is usually over-strung, with the exception of certain 1960s 1970s pianos, this doesn't apply. This is an "at a glance" way of seeing if its over-strung with all the cabinet parts assembled.

A tuning is only successful if most of the mechanism parts are in good working order, hammers aligned to all 3 treble strings, and assuming no re-pinning needs to be done. Presence of a dampp chaser heater may suggest the piano was previously kept in a cold/ damp room.... so expect the odd sticking key & slow motion jack or hammer. Keys can also be recovered if needed, or the chipped areas filed down for now. All the keys should be numbered 1-85 ? .... don't get them mixed up if you remove a few. Side of the A1 key there may be a date or pencil markings - perhaps tuners visits. Remove the key slip rail first (behind the black notes) and the keys lift out.... take care though, and I wouldn't remove the mechanism if the tapes are broken or weak.

Many new buyers just expect an old piano can be tuned.... but you need to contact a tuner and ask them to look at your piano first, and if it CAN be tuned first.... otherwise some repairs, aligning of parts etc may need to be done first as "pre repairs" before a tuning is successful. Then when a tuning starts, the tuner will test the torque of the pins. Many old pianos can't be tuned very well, and the tuning will only be as good as the general condition of the instrument itself. The piano will probably we well down in pitch, but if its just used for fun, I wouldn't consider a pitch raise.... again risks involved.

If it's over-damped, the front will have around 65 lift wires.... looks like a bird cage..... and a wooden rail above the hammers. If under-damped, there won't be a bird cage.... the dampers are behind and just below the hammers.

Just so you know.... it was free for a very good reason! nice to tinkle on & mess out/ bit of fun.... but don't expect it to become a "musical instrument" like it once was 100 years ago. Have a spare £100 in your back pocket aswell for tuning/ repairs/ setting up etc. .... just in case it costs more.

Here is under-damped (left) and over-damped (right) ......

underdamped v overdamped

[Schoie81]

Colin, thank you for your reply. From memory (I'm at work not - piano at home..) the key blocks are equal in width and as you say, both approx. 3cm wide, but I'm not 100% certain. I will remove the top and bottom doors and the fall board tonight and take some pictures of it 'naked' and post them on here so you can look. Again from memory, I'm not sure either of those pictures are identical to how my piano works, but working logically on the 'over' and 'under' parts of the names, and looking at those pictures, I think I'd say mine is 'overdamped'.

Keys - none of them appear to be sticking, so that sounds as if its a good sign! I think I will carefully file off the rough edges for now and maybe look at replacing or repairing the keys if the rest of the piano turns out to be serviceable. You're right, they are all numbered in order from left to right. I couldn't see any dates or marking on the side of the keys, but didn't completely remove them, just lifted them enough to see most of the side of the key, so its possible there is something there, I just didn't lift it out enough to see it. I'm not sure what 'the tapes' are, but the only part inside the piano I think this could logically refer to all seem to be in tact barring the 'tape' on the very top key, which I did find within the piano, but it has torn off. I suspect the rest of them may well be a little fragile - but have just left them well alone for now!

I have found a local tuner, but have said to him that I think him casting his trained eye over the piano would be the best first course of action before he plans any tuning appointment so that he can tell me what he thinks to its condition. I realised when I took it that it may well be useless, but as it was free I had very little to lose. I cannot currently play the piano, but hopefully this will turn out to be good enough for me to learn a little on and if (a very big 'IF') I surprise myself and find I do get the hang of it, then I can look at investing in a new, re-conditioned instrument. As I say, when my sister played it, it sounded ok to my ears and the person I had it from says his daughter learnt to play on it and that they had it tuned annually, so hopefully it hasn't deteriorated too far to still be useful. I have, of course, no way of telling if what he said was true (unless I can find some recent tuning dates somewhere inside...), but as he was giving it to me for nothing, I guess he had no reason to lie about it, its not like he was trying to justify the price!!

I'm quite a practical person and always like a challenge, so I would love to take on any repairs myself, but having looked inside, and from what I've read, I think this is one to leave to someone who knows what they're doing. An important part of DIY is to know your limitations!!

Will post the pictures anyway and you can have a 'nosey' inside. Thank you once again.

[Schoie81]

I retract my previous statement - having had another look, the inside of my piano looks EXACTLY like the 'overdamped' diagram you posted!! Here's the a picture anyway....

[Bill Kibby]

Although the casework styles suggests something after the 1914 war, there are various features in the action that suggest it was imported from Germany, which would obviously have been before the war, so it is probably old stock used up just after the war. That fits in with it being about 1918-1919, but doesn't fit with it being a Brooks Ltd. action, so I guess they are Brooks keys used with a German action.

If you inspect the rear of the action you may find the action makers' name and number, and I may be able to date this.

Up near the wrestpins (tuning pins) the strings pass over a wooden bridge, and this suggests a date before 1928.

[Colin Nicholson]

Yes, this is over-damped and straight strung - the old fashioned mechanism. Some still work fine. Occasionally with wear & slight warping of the wooden damper rail (that covers the hammers like a roof) .... you might get the odd 'ringing on' note - so after you let go of a note, the string continues to vibrate for a few secs. Quite common.

Curiosity can sometimes cost! .... so take care if you remove the mechanism. .... might be best to just recline it towards you, so the lever undercarriages are still resting on the key capstans. Behind the damper lift rods (bird cage) and through the rest of the treble - you'll see the bridle tapes connected to a spiral-shaped wire (top of wire). Just check that none of these have broken or started to come loose. The leather tips often crumble away.... if they are OK, it should be safe to lift out the action. See photo below for tapes location - RED arrow & red box area. (A similar action, but this one is under-damped, and the strings are overstrung).

When you put the action back, make sure the damper rail crank lever clears the lift rod on the left (yellow arrow showing approx. location). Lift the crank lever with your left hand (not the lift rod), and gently push the action back, then let go of the lever. If you press the sustain pedal, you'll see how it works. So in other words, activate the dampers by hand - leaving the lift rod down.... if you just push the action back without doing this, sometimes the lift rod cloth catches on the lever and rips the cloth/baize off. The damper lever is a round bar that runs the entire length of the dampers, then at the end, you'll see a 'tongue' .... that bit is the crank lever. (The crank lever on this mech is not in view, because its at the back)....

Colin

[Schoie81]

Colin, yes I've had a look at the bridle tapes (although I didn't know that was what they were called until now...) and they are all in tact barring one - on the very top key. This has torn away at the rear from whatever they are fastened to. I'm not sure how strong the rest are - I daren't touch them in case the answer is 'not very'!! If these are past it - are they possible to replace and if so, is this likely to cost me a fortune to have done?

So the whole of the action lifts out too!?!?! I guess that's what the two catches are for at either side in line with the hammers? On my first inspection that did look as if it was to allow something to be removed quite easily, and wondered what that 'something' might be, but went no further than wondering!!

[Colin Nicholson]

Don't remove or even recline the action - if you were tempted! If you did, the lever part & jack with the broken tape would dislocate itself, and when putting the action back, you would probably break the jack knuckle or the small wooden tab the cushion felt is glued to.... best leave the action in, it will still work Ok, even with the broken tape.

If and when you book your tuning, the tuner may need to fit an emergency clip-on tape to note A85 to prevent the jack from collapsing so that the muting strip can be fitted prior to tuning. If your piano is fitted with a celeste rail & cloth (for the left pedal) - the whole action may need to come out to temporarily remove this rail. Press the left pedal up & down, and look right to the back where the strings are.... you might see it (sometimes these are missing).... also if working, the sound will be muffled.... but it may have a half blow rail instead - can't see on your photo.

If you decide to have all the tapes replaced at a later date, there may be other work to do, because everything will be aligned with itself for 100 years.... once the hammers come off, they need to be refaced, and you are recommended to have the leathers replaced as lining back up with their indentations is tricky.

The back of the tapes (hessian) are secured inside the hammer butt dowel.... when replaced, they are cut off and new tapes are hot glued to the surface of the hammer butt rear. Have a word with your tuner/ technician about the following:-

1. Replacing bridle tapes
2. Refacing hammer head felts
3. Replacing hammer butt, and/or notch leathers
4. Cleaning all the action
5. Regulating the action
Then tuning!

The piano may tune ok without this work, but if the mechanism is removed, and most of the tapes break at the rear (this happened to me on an old Chappell piano) .... the action will need to be taken away. Can't give you a price here, as I would need to inspect everything, depending on condition/ wear & tear/ how badly grooved the materials are. Also removing the hammers involves loosening off the flange screws, then removing all hammers & flanges (wooden hinges) .... this can open a can of worms / 100 years of wood being compact & held in place by a screw, then they often break in two/ pins loose and other problems can occur. Refurbishing an old action like this is risky, and to ensure the damper rail 'hangs' back on the retaining bolt so the weight of the dampers don't shunt the flanges.... been there, got the T shirt!

Hammer having a new bridle tape fitted....

bridle tape Bechstein