Gust. Adolph Ibach grand piano

[Bletherer]

Hi I have a Gust Adolph Ibach piano with a partial crack in the frame which needs restoring - does anyone know if it is worthwhile restoring as I am enchanted that we have something so old and unique but don't have thousands to spend as I'm just a mum of three lovely piano playing daughters and not a millionaire :)

[Colin Nicholson]

Just some general advice...., but may include some technical jargon - please ask if you are not sure.

The 'frame' can often be confused for the 'wrest plank' (or pin block if in the USA).... so you may need to know the difference between the two, and we may need to know how you assume it would cost thousands? .... have you been given a quote, or has sometime inspected your piano/ told information about the work involved....?


Also, regrettably, there is no such thing as a "partial crack" .... a crack is a crack, and it may develop further.... like saying "partial hole" ....

Some cracks on pianos (eg soundboard) often don't make any difference to the tuning/tone of the piano if just a small crack.... depends on how wide & long the opening of the crack is. Again, if the crack is on the cast iron frame (assuming you mean that?) .... some can be repaired by an iron monger, but piano may need to be taken away. There is no "quick fix" for repairing or welding iron cracks.... and don't know the costs, nor do we know if it's worthwhile.... that is up to you!

On very old pianos, the 'frame' may actually be the wooden maple wrest plank (if an exposed wrest plank design), sprayed in gold to look like the cast iron frame.... and the crack may be wood, not iron. If the crack says runs between various tuning pins, it may be the top laminated layer of maple. If the crack is isolated on the gold cast iron frame, then it depends where the crack is.... so a photo is needed to comment further..

1. Photo close up of the crack (only to examine the crack, but don't know the location yet)....
2. More distant photo of the whole cast frame, pointing to the exact location where the close up photo is taken.
It will also help if we know if the crack is near tuning pins/ capo bar/ break area/ etc..

If you could post a picture of the crack, we may be able to help - but at the moment, much is guess work, unless you contact a piano technician for an assessment. If the piano is badly out of tune, or if there are loose tuning pins, the crack may be more serious - and connected to the wrest plank (which is below the cast iron frame/ music rest area.

No one can tell you if its worth repairing, as we don't know the condition of the strings, pins, mechanism/ hammers/ keyboard/ casework/ dampers etc etc....so some professional help needed.
May be a quick repair job, may be an extensive restoration.... who knows.

Click on the topic "how to download an image" to show us a photo.

Hope that helps...

Colin

ps.... sorry, if this is too technical! ....

[Bletherer]

Hi Colin thankyou for your reply, yes the crack is in the corner of the cast iron frame and it does not look as though it has ever moved , I have tried to upload the photo but I'm getting the message that the photo is too large and set at a certain vector that cannot be changed. I have been trying for days :( the piano plays very well but we need it up to concert pitch to accompany the girls who also do violin exams. The case is shabby but is tuned a quarter under concert pitch by our tuner who passed us details of SAP for full restoration but they have quoted 8.3 k for a full restoration which sadly is above my budget. Ideally I would like the frame re cast but this old industry has slipped into history here in Ireland therefore some options we have been looking into are frame welding or stitching??? And a repolish, what do you think? Alternately we could dismantle and burn it as it may be just bad luck we ever came by it :(

[Colin Nicholson]

Thanks for the photos.
It doesn't look too threatening, and the side of the cast frame is well secured to the inner rim casework with 2 large screws, so I don't think it would cause any problems.... unless you were to dismantle it and re-string.... or drop the piano down a staircase....

Ah.... now you mention the piano needs a pitch raise? ...... different ball game for old pianos like these. I suspect you may have a few loose (or spongy) tuning pins??.... as in the 1st photo, I can see a bass bi-chord string muted off by a piece of green felt. This usually means one of the strings cannot be tuned and 'held' in pitch (even below concert pitch) and the tuning lever just swings back to its original position because the pin is loose.... does this ring a bell? .... by muting the offending string, the other string sounds on its own.... but it also means a neighbouring string - which might be fine has also suffered the consequences, so you will have 2 notes next to each other (left & right) only sounding one string.... very common thing..... usually caused by central heating or low humidity.

Either the pin can be driven in a bit to get more grip (unless your tuner has tried that?), or the tuning pin replaced for a slightly larger one.... but sometimes the bass string might break by losing all its tension, then being whizzed back up to pitch.... and after not being disturbed for 100 years...... risky. Not an expensive repair.... no more than a couple of items failing an MOT.

In most cases, the piano may never see concert pitch again, depending on the condition of the rest of the strings & pins.... and for now, maybe invest in a digital piano.... just for accompaniment purposes. Pitching raising usually takes 2 or 3 visits.... and even then, after such an ordeal, the piano may never become stable.... as a customer of mine experienced with a Bechstein upright.... and had to re-strung in the end..... taking THREE years for a decision!
It needed several pitch raises.... and before the re-string, the piano never regained "pitch consciousness" .... this is difficult to put into words & explain the effect of an old 100 year piano suddenly changing its pitch.... back up to 18 tons of downbearing pressure. In the end.... I said .... "it's all or nothing" !.... so he agreed to a re-string.

Pianos don't last forever I'm afraid. Your piano will probably be fine 'muttering' along at a lower pitch.... personally, leave well alone, just accept it, and in the near future, move onto another piano. However, your tuner will have probably warned you about the risks.... and if any of the strings are rusty...... please think again.

I would imagine the 8.3K does not include a wrest plank replacement? .... about another 3K on top. If the wrest plank is fine, and not cracked inside or between maple laminates (can be viewed under the back of the fallboard if you lift the fallboard off)..... it may re-string OK. Also ask your tuner about "Pintite" .... a solution injected into the wrest plank/ tuning pin openings with a syringe & needle to swell the wrest plank openings.... but sometimes causes 'pin creak' .... and could be a tuner's nightmare! sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Cast iron stitching .... I've heard of that, but that wouldn't increase the chances of a 'concert pitch' tuning.... the welding would be mainly peace of mind...... its that tiny piece of green felt that sent the alarm bells ringing for me

Hope that helps.


Colin

[Bletherer]

Oh my goodness I've had a look and yes I can see that there is a board underneath with crack! Also we can see a wonky pin or two. We have seen a baby grande sturne in a shop for 1200 and as it's smaller and in keeping with our front room, we thought we might (I'm sorry this will either make you laugh or cry!) dismantle the Ibach and mount the strung frame on the wall. No small task lol but the result would be interesting and an educational oddity. No one wants it sadly, I even tried part exchange and giving it away - such a shame to burn the keys and the lovely philigry music stand :( anyway Colin thanx so much for all your kind replys :)

[Feg]

Oh my goodness I've had a look and yes I can see that there is a board underneath with crack! Also we can see a wonky pin or two. We have seen a baby grande sturne in a shop for 1200 and as it's smaller and in keeping with our front room, we thought we might (I'm sorry this will either make you laugh or cry!) dismantle the Ibach and mount the strung frame on the wall. No small task lol but the result would be interesting and an educational oddity. No one wants it sadly, I even tried part exchange and giving it away - such a shame to burn the keys and the lovely philigry music stand anyway Colin thanx so much for all your kind replys

Please DO NOT mount the strung frame anywhere! By all means mount the frame on the wall but you MUST remove the strings first. Otherwise you are risking the already weakened frame snapping under the tension of the strings.

[Bletherer]

Don't worry we would loosen the strings completely lol we don't want the children cheese wired either! Actually the crack is not a crack at all - it's a join - all normal, problem is if we want to have the case restored we would have to move it it might go to the auction though as I have seen a baby grand kawia which is very popular with the kids

[Colin Nicholson]

yeh.... that wooden section is your wrest plank - the pins pass through the cast iron frame, and are embedded into this piece of hard rock maple..... cracks sometimes run in 'series' across a few pins.... its scrap regrettably, unless you have it replaced.... but a major job!

This is the easiest way to remove the strings in less than TWO MINUTES!.... NOT!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1KZaCJSgsE

surprised this cowboy didn't lose his hand! .... or cause some injury!

He had this job quite easy, as the piano is only 3/4 frame.... but yours is full frame, so all the tuning pins have to be removed aswell .... about 220 of them! Large screws may have tallow on them.... so briefly heat them with a mini blow torch.... then use a brace & bit.... //// dampers need to be removed and some inner cabinet parts such as the music rest runners/ prop stick.... then 4 of you to lift it out.... good fun eh!

You could turn the frame into a coffee or dining table?? .... similar to this one >>>

coffee table

Mine is coffee.... milk, no sugar!!!

regards

Colin

[Bletherer]

Hi Colin, I can't believe my eyes what a clip! Anyway my big Ibach is sold for £200 less than I bought it so I'm satisfied that the education we have receive through learning its flaws and solutions has been well worth the experience. We are getting the girls a shiny black baby kawai but part of me is sad as the beer and wine glasses won't have a place on it at Christmas, or a hot chocolate for the girls in winter when they're trying to compose and compete with one another! You can't have it all ways. Anyway thanks so much for advice and humor. The forum is such a great facility and talking with you has been part of my learning journey