I'm having key problems on my brand new Kawai upright

[Martha]

Hi,

I bought a Kawai studio piano last week. It's a UST-8 and brand new.

I would like to ask if it is normal for a new piano to have a lot of keys not sound upon repeating unless you let them go back to their full position? It is more noticeable when I use the sustaining pedal.

One key keeps getting stuck but the technician is supposed to come back and fix it. I am wondering more about the other keys.

Sometimes they repeat after coming up 3/4 of the way and sometimes not. The company I bought it from says I need to wear it in more. Is this so?

Thank you so much.

Martha

[Barrie Heaton]

You have ether got damp in the action or the hammers are just off the rest

The damp may work out in time However, I do know in the USA that there are some very extreme swings in humidity in some parts of the country I would get back to the shop, as they should come and look at the problem. If it is the hammers off the rest then you will need a Tuner to put it right not a big job


Barrie,

[Martha]

Thank you, Barrie, for your reply.

I am not familiar with the terms you used. The tuner is coming to fix the stuck key for the second time on Friday. Could you explain to me what "damp in the action" is?

Is there a simple test I could do to see if I have either of these conditions, damp in the action or the hammers off the rest? Can I look into the top of the piano and see? I'd like to seem like I know what I'm talking about so that the tuner will take me seriously.

I live in southern New Mexico where it is very dry all the time. The humidity level in the house stays pretty consistenly at around 40 percent until our rains come in late summer.

Thank you!
Martha

You have ether got damp in the action or the hammers are just off the rest

The damp may work out in time However, I do know in the USA that there are some very extreme swings in humidity in some parts of the country I would get back to the shop, as they should come and look at the problem. If it is the hammers off the rest then you will need a Tuner to put it right not a big job.

[Barrie Heaton]

First read this post similar problem

http://www.uk-piano.org/piano-forums/vi ... php?t=1681

Since you live in a dry part of the US moisture may not be your problem However if the piano has not been in the US for long or has sat in a warehouse say Florida then humidity could be the problem and may sort itself out.

As to the hammers being off the rest the rest is part of your soft-pedal so if you press the pedal down a touch that will take the hammers off the jacks then try the problem notes if they don’t improve then that is not your problem but if they do then that need to be looked at you only need to lift the hammers a little – the action will feel different as you are introducing lost motion.




Barrie,

[Martha]

First read this post similar problem

http://www.uk-piano.org/piano-forums/vi ... php?t=1681

Since you live in a dry part of the US moisture may not be your problem However if the piano has not been in the US for long or has sat in a warehouse say Florida then humidity could be the problem and may sort itself out.

Good thread. I have opened the piano top to air out and dry if that is the problem.

As to the hammers being off the rest the rest is part of your soft-pedal so if you press the pedal down a touch that will take the hammers off the jacks then try the problem notes if they don?t improve then that is not your problem but if they do then that need to be looked at you only need to lift the hammers a little ? the action will feel different as you are introducing lost motion.

Ok, I just tried that. All the keys work really well if I press the soft pedal all of way down. If I press it down just a touch, it doesn't seem to help the problem. Of course the more I press the soft pedal down, the better the keys work, but they don't improve with just a touch.

Does any of this mean anything to you? Thanks for all of your help.

Martha

[Barrie Heaton]

The pedal may not be set up correct so you have to press it quite a bit to see an improvement

It looks like the Jack is not getting under the notch (knuckle is the US term ) this could be that the hammers are off the rest or they are a little stiff from damp Ask the Tuner if he/she could put some Teflon power on the knuckle that should help the repetition when the hammers are set to rest on the rest rail if it is moisture problem Protec could solve the problem since you live in a dry part of the world


Barrie,

[Martha]

Dear Barrie,

I've saved all of this information and will print it out to go over with the piano tuner who is a "he."

Thanks so much for all of this valuable information.

I'll get back to you after the tuner is here.

Martha

[Martha]

Hello,

Is it normal to have so many problems with a new piano?

Now 2 keys squeak and the sustaining pedal doesn't hold a few keys down well and it sounds awful.

I just wanted a piano that works.

Well, the tuner comes tomorrow. I hope it can all be resolved.

Thanks,
Martha

[Barrie Heaton]

Yes with the cheaper end of the market but not normally pianos like Kawai. In the UK the dealers can buy pianos un prepped, this is a good way to save money if you have a good team of Techs to prep the pianos – Sadly some dealers send the piano out as is, with no prep work or very little not saying your dealer has done this but there are a lot of little faults on your piano. The sustain pedal is a quick fix get him to check the soft pedal as well

Barrie,

[Martha]

Hi,

I am kind of discouraged and don't know what to say or think.

The piano tuner came and:

1. Fixed the sticking key (so far)

2. Took the squeak out of 2 keys but then when he left, a 3rd key started to squeak.

3. Tried to adjust the key that did not hold with the sustaining pedal. It is the key of G below middle C and used a lot. His adjustment helped a tiny bit only.

4. He said there was no adjustment one could make on the sustaining pedal but tightened a loose screw that he found.

5. He didn't think the soft pedal needed to be adjusted.

He seemed to be surprised at the kinds of problems I was having and couldn't figure out why they were happening.

6. He also said that the keys had to come all the back up because all pianos did except for Grands. I differed with him on that and he just said "hmmm."

He showed me that because of the plastic parts in the hammer action (not sure I'm using the right words but you get the idea I hope) had to reset completely before being able to be played again.

The piano is basically the same as it was before with 2 squeaks gone, one new one, and B hopefully no longer sticking.

I called my old piano tuner. He would charge, of course, if he came out. He said to give the piano 100 hours of playing before doing anything.

That's my report. I am quite stressed out from all of this.

Thanks for listening and any advice or suggestions would be appreciated.

Martha

[Martha]

I finally am feeling better. I contacted the tuner who used to tune my Yamaha Grand piano for 15 years until I sold it last year. He rebuilds pianos too and has always been very good. I trust him completely.

He called me this early evening, said he was in the area, and would come out and take a look at my Kawai for free.

He explained everything. He took everything off the piano and showed me things. He said that piano had zero lost motion which is why the keys are not repeating. BUT he said that kawai had done that on purpose because the felt under the hammers will wear down and give me the "lost motion" I need. He explained that zero lost motion is not good, a little lost motion is good, and too much is bad. He said to keep playing it and to place a little piece of cardboard or something under where the hammers lie against the soft pedal bar. That will raise the keys closer to the strings and it will be much easier to play since the keys will repeat much better. Once the keys get too sloppy feeling after lots of playing, I can remove the cardboard.

Then he checked the pedals and I had already adjusted it when I was messing around so it was working well. He said the piano was fine. As far as the squeaky key goes, he showed me where I could place some fine talcum powder to stop the squeak OR to keep playing it since squeaks will come and go. He reminded me how different uprights are from Grands. Then when he left, he told to cast all fears out and to just enjoy the piano so now I'm happy.

Gee, all I needed was for someone to understand pianos and explain it all to me and he did that. I feel so much better!

[Barrie Heaton]

I am pleased you are happier with your piano however………

There is a big difference with a grand and an upright on repetition but on an upright the key should repeat form halfway

As to the second tuners comments on lost motion I am sorry but he is wrong there should be NO lost motion when you touch the key the hammer should move in tandem with the key What you have is friction on the top of the jack, Plastic Jacks can some time be rough that is why I said the Tuner should put some Teflon power on the notches (knuckles) most pianos settle down after some hard playing.

On some pianos the hammer blow is set wrong this cases the angel of the knuckle to be greater than it should be causing extra friction on the top of the jack and not allowing it to return to rest, this problem can only be fixed with re-regulating (this was a common problem on the Langer 80 action in the Kemble Classic blow set to 47mm instead of 45mm)

The cardboard fix will work and the jacks will wear smooth over time but I could not let the comment about the lost motion pass they just should rest directly under the notch (knuckle) with no lost motion


See image click on it to enlarge



Enjoy your piano

Barrie,

[Martha]

Thank you, Barrie, for your wealth of information. I have saved everything you've ever said here.

I guess I'm confused about "lost motion." The second tuner checked how the keys responded and examined them thoroughly and said that at this time, I have NO lost motion and that the keys had to come just about back up to their tops to repeat. That's when he told me I could put the piece of cardboard in the "rest" where the soft pedal works so the keys would repeat easier. It didn't make sense to me but I'm not the expert.

Also he did mention the Teflon but what is it? I forgot to ask I was so overwhelmed with everything.

QUESTION

Lastly, I have a question about the G below middle C not holding long with the sustaining pedal. I have been trying to figure out WHY. The first tuner adjusted the part that hits the strings because the lower felt was touching one of the strings. That didn't help. Tightening the wing nuts down where the pedals are didn't help. So what will help?

I did a test this morning and only tested the keys around that G. I tested the keys that hit on double strings only down in that area.

They all resounded between 45 and 60 seconds with the sustaining pedal except for the G which only lasted up to 20 seconds. Do you know what I can do to fix it?

When the first tuner was working on it and he said it wasn't touching anywhere anymore when the sustaining pedal was pressed, I suggested maybe something was wrong with the actual string! He didn't know what to think and the second tuner didn't notice it.

But I DID notice and that's why I did the time test on it last night - to make sure it wasn't in my mind and it wasn't. Just call me "princess and the pea" for short.

That's what bothers me more than anything at this point. I use that G a lot and want it to hold a sound to it and not have the other keys drown it out.

Thanks, Barrie.

Martha

[Barrie Heaton]

Teflon powder is a micro fine power the stuff they use to make none stick frying pans with, we rub it into the leather this reduces friction allowing the jack to return. It works wonders on Grand Rollers (knuckles) we used graphite power in the past but that is messy and very difficult to remove any stains if you spill any


As to your G below C

First off all is the note sustaining the same with just that note playing with the key

You say G below is it the first or the second G if it is the second G is it the first in the covered strings of the over stringing

Barrie,

[Martha]

Good day, Barrie.

Thank you for the information on teflon powder. Where can it be bought? In a hardware store?

As to your G below C

First off all is the note sustaining the same with just that note playing with the key

Using the sustaining pedal, yes it was and still is. But I adjusted the wing nuts that work with the pedals and it is holding better now. I pulled all the hammers further away from the strings.

You say G below is it the first or the second G if it is the second G is it the first in the covered strings of the over stringing

It is NOT the G with over stringing, it is the G right below middle C.

Any more thoughts, insights, or advice to give?

Thanks much.

Martha

[Barrie Heaton]

Good day, Barrie.

Thank you for the information on teflon powder. Where can it be bought? In a hardware store?

As to your G below C

First off all is the note sustaining the same with just that note playing with the key

Using the sustaining pedal, yes it was and still is. But I adjusted the wing nuts that work with the pedals and it is holding better now. I pulled all the hammers further away from the strings.

Sorry my bad English don’t use the pedal just play the note is the Sustain as good as the next note

Barrei,

[Martha]

Sorry my bad English don?t use the pedal just play the note is the Sustain as good as the next note

Hold on and I'll try.......yes, if I play the key and hold it down it is the same as the others now. I may have tightened down the wing nuts a little too much because I hear echos in the whole base section but I'd rather have that then the G not sustaining long enough.

Does that make sense and again thanks.

Martha

[Barrie Heaton]

Then it is the pedal the G damper may be set more forward then the others and the spoon may have been set to pick up early that is why it will work well with the key and not with the pedal. The other reason could be too much packing in the pedal. Housing not allowing enough movement from rest to engage and if the G is set a tad forward than the others this will show up as you are finding

Now if the above is true there is a test we can try…

Turn the wing nut back so the dampers are not ring on Hold down the sustain pedal then look inside at the dampers and press a few notes you should see that they come further back than the ones just held up with the pedal




Barrie,

[Martha]

Turn the wing nut back so the dampers are not ring on Hold down the sustain pedal then look inside at the dampers and press a few notes you should see that they come further back than the ones just held up with the pedal

Hi Barrie,

Ok, I've tried the test. They all seem to work the same. There is no difference in the G than from the others. They all come back the same.

Are there any other possibilities?

Thanks again!
Martha

[Barrie Heaton]

That will be your problem if the note sustains with the key but not with the pedal then it is how the dampers are set In relation to the lift rod Or the head may be set at an angle with the bottom sticking out more that the top. Get the shop out to it again and tell them the problem if they can’t fixt it go over their heads to Kawai USA


Barrie,

[Martha]

That will be your problem if the note sustains with the key but not with the pedal then it is how the dampers are set In relation to the lift rod Or the head may be set at an angle with the bottom sticking out more that the top. Get the shop out to it again and tell them the problem if they can?t fixt it go over their heads to Kawai USA

Ok, I'm following you now. The first tuner, the one from the shop where I bought the piano, will be back out soon to tune it and I'll tell him. In any case, I have called the seller and have been assured that the key will be fixed since I have reported it many times.

Thank you, Barrie. You are really good at problem solving and in knowing pianos. I wish I could fly you out here to fix it!

I'll keep you updated.

Martha

[Mike_Hendry]

Martha

have just logged on for the first time in days and read about your saga with the kawai. Generally speaking I have to concur with Barrie on most of the advice given.
Your G that doesn't ring as long as almost definitely a damper-head alignment problem. Not uncommon, as in that part of the piano it will most probably be using a tri-chord split damper felt, and they can can be a pain to get alignment and deflection angles right.

your slow notes on the other hand can be generally traced to one of two problems. Having had extensive experience prepping new pianos (Asian, American and European) I've found the typical cause of 'sticking notes' are key bushings and/or centre-pins. The tight key bushings are easily fixed with easing pliers (every tech carries them) and c/pins are not difficult either. the only issue would be identifying whether its the hammer-flange, whippen or jack-flanges that are tight in each case.
The teflon powder certainly won't hurt, but will not rectify a tight centre-pin or key-bushing.

Given the warmth and low humidity of your climate I lean to the key-bushings as a prime cause of the sticking notes. The squeaking you refer to incidentally, is most likely the capstan rubbing on the box-cloth under the whippen and the teflon powder should sort that out.

What IS in evidence however, is that your piano has been under-prepared. Sad to say, this is a world-wide trend and is much in evidence in the USA, the UK and here in Australia.

Don't be dismayed however ... the Kawai is a nice piano, and your original tuner is right, 100 hours of playing will do it the world of good.

good luck.

Mike Hendry
Melbourne, Australia

[Martha]

Hi Mike,

It's so nice to meet you and thanks for your feedback!

I just copied and pasted and saved everything you said too. When that poor piano tuner comes back, he's going to get bombarded with ideas on what to do!

I agree, the piano was NOT prepped or under prepped. The seller even admitted it to me and said that Kawais didn't need to be prepped! Well, I can see that they were wrong now.

It's good to hear that Kawai IS a good piano and not a waste of money.

Thanks, Mike.
Martha

[Martha]

SOME KEYS RINGING

Oh dear I have another question now.

Some keys ring on after I play them without using any pedals. It is in a group and worse on the black keys. The E flat about middle C is the worst and the E flat an octave below will make that same E flat ring on which is an octave above it.

The worst keys involved are an octave below and above middle C with middle C, D, and E flat being the more horrendous.

Now if I use the middle pedal, the ringing amplies 10 times louder.

My goodness what next?

Does anyone have an idea what may cause this?

Thanks, Martha

[Barrie Heaton]

First has the tuner been back of not your problem is probably cause by you turning the wing nut too much on your sustain pedal turn it up a touch see if the solves the problem

Barrie,

[Martha]

Hi Barrie,

No, my tuner has not been back yet. I've been too ill to have anyone come to the house.

I have turned back the wingnuts on the pedals to no avail. There must be a balance somewhere.

For my sustain pedal there are two areas to adust. One goes to the right and the other one goes to the left and is connected also to the middle pedal. I have experimented with all 3 wingnuts. Should I be doing tiny turns instead of big ones?

I started with the wing nuts turned back so the sustain barely worked and then tightened from there. I must not be able to find that balance and can't play the piano right now because the ringing hurts my already pounding head.

Any suggestions on how to do with the description I gave?

I know I turned them down too far.

Thanks, Martha

[Martha]

I did an experiment. I backed off on the pedal adjustments until they didn't lift the felts off the strings at all and the keys are still ringing. Then I gradually tightened the wing nuts little by little. It makes no difference what the pedal adjustements are, the ringing stays exactly the same.

Does this make any sense to anyone?

Thank you again,
Martha

[Barrie Heaton]

The best way is play the note that rings on the most and get some one to turn the wing nut up till it stops -You will have to wait until the tuner comes and set the damper lift correctly turning the nut up and down will do the piano no harm just frustrating for you

Barrie,

[Martha]

Hi,

I haven't forgotten any of your suggestions.

I've been playing my piano a lot, have blocked my ears to any ringing for now, and the piano tuner will be out soon to do some things.

I'll keep you udated.

Thanks,
Martha