J. GUNTHER Bruxelles ODEOLA

[François Renier]

Dear Madam, dear Sir,

I am restoring a player piano. On the front above the keyboard is marked J. GUNTHER BRUXELLES ODEOLA On the metal frame of the strings it is also marked J. GUNTHER serial number 20867.
On the piano action is marked: MECANIQUE SCHWANDER à repetition J. HERRBURGER - PARIS
I wonder if you could inform me about:
• Year of construction
• History in general
• Operating and/or maintenance manual of the piano action
• Operating and/or maintenance manual of the player action
• Pneumatic scheme of the player action
Many thanks.
Ir François Renier

[Colin Nicholson]

Dear Francois,

It's nice to see black & white for a change!
With reference to your player piano, "Pianola" has become the 'household' name for a piano that plays itself, but technically, 'Pianola' is a brand name made by Aeolian Co. There are no serial numbers or dates given for your piano - sadly, many are unknown. There is also no such thing as an "Mechanism Instruction manual for a Gunther" .... so you are recommended to look at the following general guidance books that may help:-

1. Piano Servicing Tuning & Rebuilding by Arthur Reblitz (Piano mechanisms/ hammers/ levers/ dampers etc)

and/or 2. Haynes Piano Manual by John Bishop & Graham Barker (Piano mechanisms etc)

3. Player Piano Servicing and Rebuilding by Arthur Reblitz. (Player piano mechanisms/ parts/ etc)
This book shows various different models of player units, but nothing on Gunther. Many player unit companies didn't match the piano name - they were independent.

I'm not an expert on these, but your player mechanism looks similar to the rear view of a Farrand Cecilian (or an early Bush & Lane Cecilian). Uncommon.
As quoted by Reblitz....
"The stack was one of the heaviest ever built because it was almost all metal. Unfortunately, the pouches are contained inside metal chambers which are crimped together with little tabs, and many of the tabs break off when an attempt is made to disassemble the parts to replace the pouches, particularly if the action is quite rusty. As in modern Aeolian player pianos, the individual units were designed to be replaced, not repaired. Neither the author nor any of his acquaintances have ever replaced the pouches on one of these, so if you decide to purchase one, or agree to restore one for a customer, do so with the understanding that pouch replacements will be done on a trial and error basis."

These words may also apply to the many other 100s and 1000s player pianos out there. Generally speaking, we can still tune them, but we don't repair/restore/ regulate player units.... far too many problems. You also see many players that have had the player 'guts' ripped out, and now just play as a standard upright piano. Good luck!



Hope that helps....

Colin

[Bill Kibby]

Player pianos are a bit too "modern" for me, but it is fair to say that they were only built into the pianos from the early 1900s, and previously, they were "Piano Players", separate units with mechanical fingers. Herrburger Schwander, Paris merged with Brooks, London in 1920, so an estimate of 1910 should not be too far out. It would help me if you could show what the piano actually looks like.

I think it is fair to say that anyone who deals with player piano repairs regularly would not need a manual.

As Colin points out, the name Pianola doesn't come into it, so I have removed it from your heading so that it does not confuse people searching for Odeola. To quote my page at

http://pianohistory.info/edwardian.html

If imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, then one measure of the success of the Pianola is the degree of imitation of its name by other player piano makers, such as Pianella, Pianolo, Pleyela, Virtuolo and the many "ola" endings, including Artonola, Autoelectrola, Autonola, Carola, Claviola, Coinola, Concertrola, Desola, Dranola, Duola, Euphonola, Eastonola, Humanola, Indianola, Interola, Ninola, Odeola, Phonola, Pistonola, Plaola, Playerola, Russola, Spin-O-La, Stradola, Theme-Ola, Triphonola, and Victorola!

[François Renier]

Dear Colin,

Thanks for your quick reply.

Black & white? Yes! Due to the limit of MB for the attachments I transformed my colour pictures in B&W. So I can keep the high definition of the pictures with much less MB. But, agreed, it looks nice.

Thanks also for your information about the word “Pianola”. I will not use it anymore for my piano.
I have the book “Player Piano Servicing and Rebuilding by Arthur Reblitz”. It is really a very helpful and indispensable source of information. I use it a lot. But it is written mainly for UK and USA built player pianos. The system I am restoring “ODEOLA” is of French origin, unfortunately not specifically treated in this book.
I checked your suggestion of similarity with the Farrand Cecilian system, but it is not.

Together with a Belgian instrument specialist we restored successfully and maintained the piano action. Also the tuning went smoothly. Now we are concentrating on the player action.

On the site http://www.player-care.com/odeola-pleyel.html I found useful information, also the document “Comment il faut jouer l’ODEOLA” (How to play the ODEOLA). Herein I found the description of the function “SILENCE”. It put me on the way to understand the regulation of the motor speed and will probably able (will work on it this week) to fix the actual problem that the motor always runs at highest speed, even if we put the speed level on 0.

Kind regards.

Ir François Renier

[François Renier]

Dear Bill,

Thanks for accepting my topic.

I join a picture of the complete piano. I hope this will help you to date it?

Thanks also for removing the word “pianola”. I understand why now and will not use it again.

Kind regards.

Ir François Renier

[Colin Nicholson]

I would put it around 1900 - 1910.... as Bill suggests. There will not be any way of dating this accurately to within a year or two because I suppose Gunther may not have submitted any serial numbers to Pierce Atlas (see http://www.piercepianoatlas.com) or other census - so some of it is guess work. Various 'paperwork' and records were probably lost around WW1.

Sometimes though, dates / tuner's activity/ notes & tuning dates do crop up on various parts of pianos.... like at the top of the keys - near the centre chasing bushings, and sometimes there may be a date stamp or some pencil markings on the side of the key A1.... but shouldn't be sworn by..... usually just a guide.

I am presently restoring an old "A. Lenz" upright German piano.... again, there is a serial number #73628 and Langer action number 424665, and several ornate pencil markings simulating some kind of serial number on the soundboard, behind the pedal trap work. I have just finished re-bushing the keys, and during strip down of the key frame - as usual, there are many pieces of "German newspaper/ magazines" washers on the centre rail - about 5 or 6 on top of each other for every key.... one particular washer had a date on .... 1893! Well, maybe a bit early for this piano, but it may give an approximate period - but could just be a Births, Marriages, Deaths date in the obituary column!!.

I know it's "early 1900s" .... and that's all we can go by.... unless you find something else.
See below >>

Centre rail washers

[François Renier]

Dear Colin,

Thanks. Knowing beginning 1900 is Ok for me. The exact date is not that important.

During my cleaning before restoration I unfortunately did not find any markings.

Kind regards.

Ir François Renier

[Bill Kibby]

I have very little experience of Belgian pianos, but based on English ones, I would have thought twenties. There is a somewhat similar Broadwood player of 1909, but I would think by its appearance that it is a bit later, perhaps in the 1914-18 war. Similar models were made in the twenties, except for the fancy tops to the columns (legs).

[François Renier]

The following is an e-mail sent to you by carlosalce via your account on "UK Piano Page Piano Forum":

J Gunther 20867 is from 1924
El interior tiene un aspecto bastante bien conservado.
Cuando lo desmonte me gustaría que publicara fotos de la máquina del player.

Saludos

I have a lot of photos of details, too much to join to this message. I will try to find a way to publish these photos.

From another source I received the information:

Selon mes atlas, votre pianola daterait de 1923 -1924. Le système de soupapes dont il est équipé est le meilleur qui a été monté sur les Günther.

I will try to find more about this "atlas".

I thank all sources for these informations.

ir François Renier

[Bill Kibby]

I'm sorry I don't understand, I do not have an email account with the forum, only my own email via my own website.

Thanks for the information about the date. I believe this may be the Europe Piano Atlas, I will look for it when I can.

You can post photos here, or email them to me, and I will post them for you.

[François Renier]

Dear members,

I promised a couple of months ago to post some pictures of the piano. I would select some important ones. But after reconsidering I put all my photos in a dropbox with the following link:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/bcqt3gsi0l4i ... x8BFa?dl=0

Using this link you can see and eventually download all the pictures that are of any interest for you. This may be of interest for carlosalce (see a previous conversation).

I will keep the pictures in this dropbox until end of October 2014.

My restoration is going well.

Kind regards to all.

[Colin Nicholson]

Certainly looks the part now with new tubing.... should hopefully stop leaking air.
Are the small bellows (pneumatics) OK inside.... ? sometimes the diaphragms perish.
Also - the action may need regulating? ....check the hammer leathers.

Keep up the good work.