A real problem for the pro's!

[pianotechman]

Ok, fellow technicians, So i'm called out to a Steinway model K upright, that has been fully reconditioned by another technician or firm unknown, as the instrument was bought at auction for quite a substantial sum I believe. Nice clean re-string, original STEINWAY keys that have been recovered in plastic.and a brand new set of German hammers,well fitted to a brand new Louis Renner action. Now here's the rub. The action plays 'pants'.....it's unresponsive ,sluggish,[ especially when you take the damper spring resistance off with the sustain pedal] repetition is appalling.
The touch depth was well over 10mm, so I re-set in conjunction with a 47mm hammer blow, also worth noting that the key bushings have been replaced, and are not binding. Also the 'centres' appear to be fine.
What I am thinking is that the Renner wippen may have a different distance from it's flange pivot to the contact point of the key capstan, than the original Steinway wippens.
So does anyone know what the original Steinway spec for this model should be?
The original Steinway keys are also 'front loaded', another indication of a previously much heavier original action? Any advice from you fellow pro's would be a help! Hey guys, don't worry, I have no idea who fitted the action!

[Colin Nicholson]

Double check the whippen flanges - if tight-ish, poor repetition with pedal on.
I'd take a few off - blow them (like blowing a candle out)/ or swing test.

According to my spec book, the model K is as follows:-

Key height 61mm
Hammer blow 44.5mm
Key dip 10mm

try that, and see if its better.

Colin

[Barrie Heaton]

Try moving one key dolly {P} forward 2mm see if that improves Normally the dolly would be in-line with the jack but..

.

whippen to key

Barrie

[pianotechman]

Colin, that's helpfull in terms of the blow and touch depth, but as I say, the wippen centres are all fine. Barrie, your diagram is a great help. It looked like they had bent the capstan shafts towards the wippen flange as they were not at 90 deg to the key top. When i bent them forward, obviously the touch weight became lighter but as a result, when you take off the damper resistance, you get a poor key return. Now you do have some adjustment on the action cups,but going down that road could alter the damper lift and make even more work!That is why I need to start with this first equation correct. Also when you remove the acton, the original keys have been 'front loaded', so i'm guessing the original Steinway wippens were heavier than the new Renners. I was always taught when I was at Bluthners, that the action/key makers, Ie Herburger Brooks worked out all these fundamental settings so us guys only had to do minimal adjustments.[IE for the Welmar factory] If the firm who did this job had also put in a set of Renner keys at the same time I wouldn't have to be doing this. As it is Barrie, I think I'll have to do what you suggest from your diagram, drill/knock out the front leads and then re-weigh and re-load the keys. you reckon on a 56grm touch weight before damper lift?

[pianotechman]

Barrie, looking at your diagram, do we know what dimension 'A' is for the model 'K'? that would put the action in the right place, provided the Renner wippen heels are in the same place as the Steinway originals
I've saved your diagram for refference, hope you don't mind!

[Barrie Heaton]

For me the next step would to measure the up and down weights with the dampers off
if the down weight is say 50g and the up is only 9g you need to lose some of the lead in the keys.

A simple test would be to add a lead weight just behind the dolly on a few keys see if that improve it

Renner use to ask for lots of measurements when you ask for a replacement action David Fry is the best person to talk to he is in the UK at the moment if not one of the RRT or better still sussexpianos he has done the PTD course that course is very deep in to action geometry.

Barrie

[pianotechman]

Thanks for your advice Barrie,I'll certainly implement it! you know you can have done this job for over 37 years and still find new things when you go trouble shooting! How might I contact Mr Fry if I need to, is he also on the forum?

[Barrie Heaton]

Thanks for your advice Barrie,I'll certainly implement it! you know you can have done this job for over 37 years and still find new things when you go trouble shooting! How might I contact Mr Fry if I need to, is he also on the forum?

He is but has an Alias his website and contact details

David Fry Piano Services
8 Longfield Road
Meopham
Kent DA13 0EN Telephone: 01474 814330
Mobile: 07796 293274
www.davidfrypianos.co.uk


Barrie

[pianotechman]

Barrie the job is done!
I reset the capstans to the geometry of your diagram, then had to remove most of the front leading,[ which was no easy task as they had been 'blind' leaded],so I had to drill a hole on the opposite side of the key then knock them out with a drift. Reset the touch weight to 56grm and re-lead. Interesting to note, that although the person responsible for this re-con had obliterated the piano serial number, I found a production date on the underside of one of the original Steinway keys as 01-09-1920. So they would have been matched and weighted to an action with much heavier hammers and those old repetition springs that were mounted on the damper shade rail, the ends of which were always in direct contact with the butt?
One has left a very happy customer. The worry is how many more of these half action re-cons are out there?
Thanks for your help Barrie, the diagram was invaluable!

[Barrie Heaton]

Pleased that is worked out well for you all good fun! Can't understand why they do not not re weight the keys in the first place

Barrie