Help identifying my upright piano

[Yassie]

Hi everyone,
I have recently been given a piano and i'm looking to find out anything at all about it.

The lady I got it from said it was a Lehmann, but once i got it home and searched the net a little, I couldn't seem to find any information on it. So, i browsed a few photo's on the net and found one that looks like mine, only it's a Chappell.
I suspect the cover/lid for the keys is not the original one as this says Lehmann on it.

I've had a good look around it (well where i can get to anyway) and got some numbers from different areas. I have taken some pictures too which I will attach. Hopefully they'll help.

Thank you in advance for any help.

Yassie.

[Colin Nicholson]

Hundreds and thousands of pianos look like each other, many with small and large differences & some different named pianos look identical to each other! - but its not to say this is not a Lehmann. Regrettably there is very little information about this piano name. I don't think its a Chappell. The wood colour/veneer on the fallboard (lid that covers the keys) seems to match the rest of the piano (fake rosewood). However, this does look 'English' rather than German, so I suspect the casework was made in Germany, then shipped to the UK to have the mechanism & keys installed.

I would estimate this piano to be dated around 1895 - 1910. It is straight-strung/ 3/4 cast iron frame (the top gold part is a dummy called a capping bar), and it has an over-damped mechanism - often referred to as a "bird cage" action. Standard 85 keys. Regrettably - although you have a free piano, there is no such thing when you come to having it tuned!.... and tuned! ...... and tuned!

You are only partly showing this piano! .... although its good to see the insides, we also need to see the piano complete with all its panels put in place. Often by any art work/ beading/ Mother of Pearl/ etc.... we can give you a better idea. Even if the panels are plain - sometimes presence of previous sconces can reveal its age.

The piano (so far) looks fairly original - but obviously the insides are in shocking condition! .... and do you know when it was last tuned? Many of these pianos now are unable to be tuned successfully, or dont hold their pitch for long - maybe a month at the most..... and perhaps the lady has sighed relief now she has parted with it?

Adolph Lehmann & Co were established in 1890 - Berlin, Germany - but the serial numbers are very erratic, and I suspect after the WW1 bombing, they lost their factory and any records and had to start again. Eg up to 1910, 63000 pianos were recorded, but then by 1915, the numbers dropped to 13000. On average, they produced around 3000 pianos per year. Company folded around 1937.

The numbers you provide on the label will be a stock/parts number, and doesnt relate to any serial numbers. However.... interesting.... they have stuck the label on using hot "animal glue" - this is known as 'pearl' rabbit skin glue - and its mixed with a little water in a jar (like a baby bottle warmer) - then when it 'melts' and goes hot, it is used to glue together the many thousands of materials/ leathers / felts inside the piano - so this is the same glue they use for the mechanism materials (but applied more carefully & thin).

There may be more clues if you remove the fallboard (it just lifts off), and if you can look on the keys for possible tuning date records (usually in pencil) - however, stamped numbers on the keys are also NOT the serial number.

The serial number may be located on the soundboard or behind the mechanism - but I would get a tuner to check. I wouldnt try to remove the mechanism. - it might fall apart.

Hope that helps....

Colin

[Yassie]

Hi,
Thanks for the information. I did take a lot more photo's but because i'm a newbie i had to wait before i could add any more piccies.

Here are a few more.

[Yassie]

I will put it all back together and take a few snaps and post them.

I think you're right though, I'm probably best getting a tuner in to have a look at it - see what he thinks.

Thank you for taking the time to reply plus all the information you provided. I really do appreciate it. At least i have some information on it now which is more than i had before. The lady i got it from didn't know anything about it.

There is a marking in pencil on the back with a date on it. I thought that could be the last time it was tuned. I posted a pic of it in my last reply. I also posted a few pics of what i did find under & on the bottom keys. Plus what was written on the side of the bottom keys too. I haven't checked all the keys though.

I know absolutely nothing about piano's. I thought maybe this could be a little project as i've always wanted to learn to play. I expected to have to pay to have it tuned but as you mentioned, I don't want to have to keep forking out to have it tuned over and over. I'll see what the tuner says... but i'm not feeling too optimistic at the moment. Might start searching the ad's see what's out there for sale.

Thanks again Colin!

Yassie
(photo's to follow shortly with all parts in place)

[Yassie]

Me again...

Here's a few photo's of it with all parts in place. if there's something specific you'd like to see, let me know and i will post it if i can.

Thanks

[Yassie]

I think this says

RJ Hilton & Co
Can't read this line... maybe an address - 340?
Liverpool 8
Piano Specialists

[Colin Nicholson]

Well.... I think we can safely say your piano is NOT German, but a piano with no original name (as yet). The very 1st photo was taken in bright sunlight, so it was difficult to see the veneer colours & patterns. I suspect that the bottom panel and fallboard have been robbed from a "Lehmann" piano... the fallboard is more obvious because of the name on it - but the top panel does not 'reflect' in any way with the bottom panel.... and German pianos usually do. The cheeks at either side are also a different veneer stain & pattern (painted ribs) - and the original top panel may be matching this truss continuation. I suspect there may be about 2 or 3 different pianos involved to make your piano!! - get my drift?

The serial number looks right punched into the wood amongst the tuning pins, but this is the wrest plank.... NOT the soundboard. The soundboard is behind the strings, and you can see it easily protudes to the right (angled) at the bottom of your piano, behind the cast iron frame. The soundboard & cast frame will stop about 3/4 of the way up the piano (roughly where the dampers are) - hence this is 3/4 frame. It also matches the label (weird!) .... but again, there is no reference to this serial number in the book.

I would never rely on pencil markings - your kids could have done that!! .... again, numbers need to punched/ decalled/ stencilled/ etched into the wood or cast frame properly - using arabic lettering about 2cm in height.... not dates etc scribbled in pencil.

As I said before - the punched numbers on the keys are useless to anyone - pianos dont usually have records of stock numbers.

Problem being is that even if your piano WAS Lehmann, there are no records as such.... so serial numbers are useless. However, based on the Hilton stamp - this may be the action makers or retailers - but not the piano name.

Get your tuner to carefully lift out the action - there may be a name there, either behind the strings, or on the reverse of the action rail. Basically I think that this is a typical English piano (in a Jacobean/walnut/light oak finish) - then later, various bits have been robbed from another piano to make it look German. The rounded corners on the panelling & recessed beading (lower panel) look German - similar to Pohlmann and some Schiedmayer uprights I've seen - but this piano has been typically "rounded off" with a plain top panel to give it a 1930's look. Even the top lid side trims dont match! ...... just enjoy your piano.... but ignore that name on the fallboard.... and your pedals are typically UK aswell.... German pedals are usually more "speech mark" shaped and fatter.

Some tuners might not know stuff like this - they just tune!

Remember this.... "It says Typhoo on buses, but they dont sell it"

Anyone can rename a piano - I have some stencil kits and can be done in 5 minutes!
Definitely not Lehmann, sorry to say, and not German either. Typically an "Early 1900s English piano with no name"

To confirm this without doubt.... can you remove the top panel AND fallboard (forget numbers, pencil markings, punched numbers etc) and take a photo of the KEY CAPSTANS - these are the raised bits right at the back of the keys, under the mechanism. You will also see some thick wires pointing up (behind the bird cage), each one having a square piece of wood attached, and infront some green or blue felt (about 5mm in thickness).... depending on the design of the capstans, if they are 'rocker' shaped with 2 grub screws on each, they will be German - but if either a thick wire with a piece of round dowel on, or just a flat piece of felt with a screw underneath - these will be UK. Any names properly printed are useful. Take your photo at eye level with the keys - and please use a flash.

[Yassie]

Hi Colin,

Thank you SO much once again for all the information you've given.

I was a little unsure where to take the photo's so i took a few.

Hope these are the area you meant?

[Bill Kibby]

I am just back from a few days in France, so my brain is not quite with me yet. You started off by saying it may be a Lehmann piano, and it is not dissimilar to Edwardian Lehmann pianos I have tuned in the past. Somewhere, I have an ad showing the Warmglow heater, fitted to a Lehmann upright. See also
http://pianogen.org/edwardian.html

The Costa Action is certainly made in Germany, as described at
http://pianogen.org/action.html
but these were often used in English pianos until 1914. Numbers on the keys don't help. 1906 may be the date of the piano, but I am guessing this is an English piano before 1928, the interior made around 1903, but the case has been partly modernised and disguised. Are there any marks at all on the black area of the iron frame?

1911~AdolfLehmannColumn307.jpg (19.14 KiB) Viewed 16954 times

22982 is too large for a Lehmann serial number. There were two German piano firms named Lehmann, established in 1890 and 1898. Search Google images for "Lehmann piano". R.J. Hilton seems to be a dealer, but I have no record of him up to 1928, so he probably sold the piano secondhand at a later date. I will let you know if I find anything later.

[Yassie]

Hi Bill,

Hope you had a lovely time in France?

Thanks for your advice.

The lady who I got the piano from said it was a Lehmann. It says 'Lehmann' on the fallboard. I did search google images for 'Lehmann pianos' and I couldn't seem to find anything the same. (I was looking for something identical) I don't know much about the history or different styles, so if I am being honest, I didn't really know what to look for.

I found a piano that looked identical (to my eye anyway) but that was a Chappell. So, I thought maybe the fallboard has been replaced. After reading Colin's reply lastnight, i gave it a quick wipe over and had a better look at the frame and edgings. The edging that runs around the top, the edging that runs all around the bottom of the keyboard, the top part of the curved ends at either side of the keyboard and the legs are all brown (with an almost black grain) colour. Everywhere else looks like a reddish brown colour. including the sides of the curved ends bits. (I hope that makes sense)
I've just got underneath and had a look at the joint where the leg meets the underneath. I noticed 2 holes on either side, it looks like something has been there at some point.

I haven't had a tuner out to look at it yet, so i'm not sure whether there are any markings on the back of the iron. From what I can see, there is only a number on the black iron at the bottom (433) I'll know more once a tuner looks at it.

Colin mentioned a particular type of glue that was used to stick the small piece of paper with the handwritten number on the back (photo at the top of this thread) he mentioned that this glue was used to glue parts together. Whilst looking around it lastnight, i noticed that it seems this glue was used for attaching most parts. i can see it almost everywhere. Not sure if that will help but thought i'd mention it.

The top front panel i think is definitely not original. Looks like and older piece of wood (with lost of holes in it & it's attached to a newer piece. ( I will add a photo of this later)
if hypathetically the older piece of wood is the original then it would have 2 x square holes and a longer obong hole in the middle. When i say holes i mean it could of had a piece of decorative wood inside where the space is.
the 'brinsmead' on here shows what i mean. http://pianogen.org/edwardian.html (sound vents maybe?)
The fall board has a tiny edging which looks to me the same colour as all the other edging i mentioned earlier. (i will post pic, but it's hard to see as it's a tiny detail.)
The board at the bottom has what looks like a black insert seal but when you look closer it's smooth and is possibly stained/painted) & the main reddish colouring does seem to match all the main framework (i've also taken a pic of the back of the board)

It's just dawned on me that the fall board and the long thin piece of wood that sits on top of the keys that the fall board slots in to. These both have what i am guessing is a part number. The same number written on each piece (982) This is the last 3 digits of the number near the pins (22982) again they're written in pencil and i know these are not reliable. As Colin said "the kids could have written it" But, thought i'd mention it all the same.

Gosh, I didn't realise the time. I will quickly post a few more photo's.

Thanks again Bill

[Yassie]

A few more photo's.

Oh, and i meant to mention that the number on the fallboard i mentioned earlier (982) isn't written in pencil it's punched.

Hope this helps.

Thanks

[Bill Kibby]

Sorry I missed the bit about the name being on the piano. Why are you asking us to identify it. The last 3 digits of the main number often appear on removable parts, as you can read at
http://pianogen.org/numbers.html
If we assume that it is a Lehmann and that is the main number, then the published information is wrong - AGAIN!

[Yassie]

I was asking for help identifying it because i suspected with the colouring differences and not finding anything like it on the net that maybe it wasn't a Lehmann. The only picture i could find of a piano similar to mine was a Chappell.

Maybe i was being a bit premature coming here and asking when i should have maybe looked around it and searched the internet some more first.

My apologies for wasting your time.

Thanks anyway,

Bye.

[vernon]

This is clearly a 1950s "modernised" or at least half modernised. The top door has just been reversed and covered with a sheet of( I suspect,plywood).As usual the bottom door is retained.
All the holes in the top door are where the mouldings used to be.

The trusses have been replaced by the typical curved columns, available at all piano supply houses in the 50s and 60s.
It was all to do with the purchase tax on new pianosin those days

[Yassie]

Hi Vernon,

Thanks for your reply. I appreciate you taking the time.

You're right! The newer part of the top door that i said was attached to an older piece with holes and spaces where molding might have once been, is plywood.

Thanks again to everyone for your time and for sharing your knowledge.

Yassie