Comparing Trills on Grands and Uprights.

[Jonathan the 2nd]

Is there a large difference between the "trill action in my hand "needed when playing an Upright as against a Grand . How does the technique differ? I read that a Grand requires more movement but I find that hard to believe. What difference of movement in centimetres would I notice in finger movements. Where does the key need to be positioned for a long trill? All the way up and down or just half way? Are there any tricks or short cuts?

[Colin Nicholson]

.... what nonsense!! ...... !

[Jonathan the 2nd]

Please explain "nonsense". Let me alter the question. Is there any difference between them?

[dancarney]

Yes, EACH piano will feel different; grand vs grand, or upright vs grand.

It's impossible to give an empirical answer to 'What difference of movement in centimetres would I notice in finger movements'.

Why not discuss this with your piano teacher? Or simply try a variety of pianos?

[Jonathan the 2nd]

At present I`m an absolute beginner and my daughter played mostly. My basic attempts at trills seemed very awkward ,like galloping through treacle,and it may be down to some friction or stickiness in the mechanism. Already I have learned a little from your answer though. It`s such an early stage I don`t even have a teacher. I`m sure I would get a clout for asking such questions. In violin teaching it`s not clear until you are told that the finger just has to touch the string rather than press it right down to the fingerboard. My question was similar to that , if you see what I mean.

[Jonathan the 2nd]

My difficulty with the playing trills boiled down to the stickiness caused by tight ( too high ) capstan screws. Once they were eased down the whole feel of the piano changed. It was left standing for some time. Just in a cool dining room and not damp.I wondered how my kids could have played on it like that. I expect my odd question would be recognised by a tuner who sees through the question to the real problem. Tuners must have to interpret what players say because we know little about the internal workings. And I`m a new player anyway.That`s even worse.

[Jonathan the 2nd]

I was watching a Josh Wright video yesterday ( fantastic teacher ) and he explains a lot about trills. I had the wrong idea that it was about raising the fingers high and fast. It should be minimising the height of fingers and not using adjacent fingers. Avoid the weaker fingers too. Also there is a basic difference between Grand and Upright trills. A Grand action is quicker but the downside is a Grand needs more muscle to work the keys on account of all the lead weights .

[markymark]

When I play a grand piano, often but not always, I would find the action slightly heavier than that of an upright. Basically, it's down to finger strength and versatility. People who learn on a digital piano and then move to an acoustic piano will arrive at a similar issue. As their fingers have become used to training on a lighter keyboard action, transference of the same skills require much more effort because of the increased amount of muscle energy required from the fingers. Hands can get tired, not all notes will sound, trills sound spasmodic and so the list goes on. As you move from piano to piano, you will notice a difference in action and even tone but an accomplished pianist will be able to look past this and use his/her experience to make the most out of the instrument.

[Jonathan the 2nd]

I was fascinated to see the way small magnets ,attracting and repelling ,are being used to bypass the lead weights. The best one is the use of magnets to relieve pressure on the leather pads to reduce friction by about 20%. Very cool.

[Jonathan the 2nd]

Paderewski ran into the problem of heavier keys when he went to America on a tour .

[Jonathan the 2nd]

Robert Estrin in his teaching video makes the case in favour of Baby Grands (and full size Grands ) in preference to Uprights because you can trill much faster than on an upright. The repetition mechanism ,he says , is designed more efficiently .

[Jonathan the 2nd]

Now I am using trills more than avoiding them I find ,on this upright, that my fingers move too quickly for the notes to sound. The key does not return quickly enough .
Added note .----I tested this in a music shop last week. All on electric pianos. Some had a sluggish action and I could feel a delay and a few seemed glued to my finger as it moved upwards. That was on a keyboard which ,I think,was an organ design. I read that comparison somewhere. It may mean something. The key`s shape at the back was shaped in a slight downward curve. Why bother with that on an electric keyboard ? It was a red Nord keyboard with a very good Steinway sound .

[karen]

thank you Jonathan for your persistance in replying... and for those who replied to Jonathan..I found this an interesting exercise ..going to the music shop and trying the different actions...on the different pianos...

[Jonathan the 2nd]

That trip to the shop was last week Karen. Yesterday to sort out the favourite Chopin Nocturnes in my new book I cheated and had a quick flick through the youtube videos to give me some targets to aim at. I am trying trills now and something made me re-read posts in the Piano World forum .They mentioned bridle straps and frankly I thought the answers about them were pathetic.They tell you it stops all the bits flopping around when the mechanism is removed. That`s a secondary bonus. A piece of wood would do that. Why bother with all those separate metal parts holding the ends of the straps ? I found one site that gave a clear , logical reason for the straps. When you ---have played ----a note on an upright the hammer is vertical and falls back slowly. The strap is connected between --- the whippen and the hammer . The whippen falls back quicker. So the strap,when adjusted properly will give the hammer a quick tug back to get it ready for another quick repeat . All the metal parts the straps were fitted to ,were too vertical ,just as they were fitted originally and the straps were too loose . I had asked the tuner why the trills were sluggish and he should have known that. Anyway I made a simple tool by cutting a slot in a narrow metal bracket and adjusted them all myself. Now the trills work very easily. It`s got a Saito action and that has a patent to improve the repeat of notes in trills. I think that patent just covered the springs. It did not mention the straps . Why did they call them bridle straps if they were just to stop the bits falling out? Another word would have done the job just as well. So--Loose Bridle Straps will slow down trills.

[Colin Nicholson]

I like your version of the bridle strap (or tape) - and yes, to the average "eye" - they seem to be quite hopeless & useless, like an appendix in your body!.... in terms of contributing towards a trill. Well.... they dont contribute to that at all - that's not their 'job' . As you rightly pointed out, the straps are there to prevent the jacks (attached to the whippens) from dislocating themselves from the underside of the hammers when an action is removed.... and they sort of contribute very slightly in the return of the hammer by tugging on the hammer - but the tug is marginal compared to what the mechanism is meant to do in order to get better repetition.

The bridle tape is not connected in any way to the piano key, in fact, with the mechanism in place in your piano, if you disconnect a bridle tape, the hammers & whippens will work in the same way without it. The main contribution to a hammer returning is 'inertia' - and the force of the hammer rebounding was enough for earlier pianos. Then the hammer butt spring - this is attached to a loop, which is attached to the hammer flange - and this does make a difference to the return.

Also, the tip of the jack must be precisely set just in the right place under the hammer - nudging against the curved leather part. If the jack is set too high (pushing on the leather) - then it doesnt reset itself quickly enough, and may 'catch' on the leather.... and on the other hand, if there is a gap between the leather & jack - this will cause "Lost Motion" between the key and hammer. The hammer only does what its "told" in relation to the position of the key capstan, and the jack - therefore the bridle tape just "joins in the ride" Also, if the leather is worn or perished (or the jack is badly regulated) - this will also cause poor repetition.

Yes, the bridle strap needs to be there - but for other reasons, and also contributes towards using the left pedal. Some very old pianos had jack "catchers" - like a hooked piece of wood to hold the hammers up against the jacks - but they often broke. The tapes are also very slightly 'slack' so that they do not interfere too much in the hammer's return - its a combination of inertia, butt spring, and the hammer notch allowing just enough room for the jack to reset itself ready for the next cycle.

For 'inertia' to work effectively (and the butt spring) - all parts need to be moving freely, and not binding. Flange centre pins must not be seized or tight - the jack springs should work effectively, and the key bushings also need to be working freely - so its often the case, a piano may have a sluggish feel to it, parts slightly binding, which in a combined total may slightly slow everything down. However, if the parts are good, and the piano regulated well - repetition should be good.... but a bridle tape is just a bridle tape! - nothing really to do with regular and rapid repetition.

Just one more thing.... you say hammers are "vertical" ??.... well they are not! - if you look closely, they are reclined by about 45 degrees (maybe a touch less) - they reach almost vertical as they strike the string. Also depending on how you play the piano, if a note is sustained, the hammer returns first into "check" - not the whippen. If you play a note staccato, both parts are almost simultaneously moving at the same time..... the hammer rest rail then takes the impact to stop the hammer back to rest. There needs to be a small amount of slack in the tapes to allow the jack to slide back under the hammer - if its too tight, this may cause positive motion.

Your tuner should know all this!!

Colin

[Jonathan the 2nd]

I have edited the line about the vertical hammer as I was talking about the hammer falling backwards after the note was played. In reality the trills were not working properly because the speed of the hammer falling was setting the speed of trills possible.That was a fairly constant speed. If you varied the speed the whole thing got itself into a tangle. Now the trills work faster or slower depending on what I am doing to the keys. It is all coordinated and works well. Before the jacks were doing a hit and miss routine.Now every note is playing properly.
If the straps have absolutely no function apart from holding things together when you remove the mechanism ,why did they attach them to a moving part of each hammer. That seems a silly design idea.

[Colin Nicholson]

Hi

If you never use (or used) the left pedal - then I suppose the straps could be fixed elsewhere - but the wires are adjustable by means of bending them into the right position to allow for some tape 'play' (slack).

The tapes have 3 functions:-

1. Hold the mechanism together
2. Assist in the hammer return (only marginally)
3. Left pedal - the hammers 'tow' the tapes with the whippens.

When you press the left pedal down, the hammers move closer to the strings.... in doing so, the slack is then taken up on the tapes, and they become tight as the hammer 'tows' or drags the levers towards them.

There must be a small amount of slack so that the hammer moves first, then the whippen lever. The jack will then be lower, and a gap will be created - if you press a key slowly - watch the whippen moving first (by quite a bit) - then the hammer will move afterwards. When you let go of the pedal - the whippen & hammers move together at the same time.

To create the right "touch" for the left pedal, there should be some lost motion. If the tapes are too tight - then if the pedal is pressed, this will tow the lever at the same time as the hammer moving forward - no good! ....

when a mechanism is set up in a workshop, all the tapes must have about 2mm of slack to allow for the left pedal - if needed.

[Jonathan the 2nd]

I saw an article yesterday by a technical piano person who did not think the left pedal was much use and you should learn to play softly without it. If push came to shove and I had to choose between effective trills or a left pedal I would lose the pedal first. In the original state there was massively more than a few millimetres slack in all the tapes.They were literally doing nothing. That`s without using the left pedal . The left pedal is mentioned in a Kawai article .It says the tapes should have enough slack when the soft pedal is operated so that the whippen does not move. That adjustment puts it right back with the original trill problem again. It`s a trade off that I can live with. Do teachers recommend use of the left pedal ? Or do they disaprove of them. Is the grand piano mechanism for pedals different to uprights ?

[Jonathan the 2nd]

Partly to answer some of my own questions from reading about the soft pedal . Some teachers would recommend learning to play softly without using the upright soft pedal.They refer to that as a crutch. In my case I examined the wooden rod connections between the pedal and the internal parts to make sure there was a 1/16th inch clearance. That is set properly. The whippens do lift slightly when the pedal is used and testing the repetition it all works very happily. There is no sign of tightness in the tapes before playing the notes. The tape action (tugging the hammer back) is very brief and it was a clever person that thought of that to achieve such a useful effect. You might need a high speed camera to measure what actually happens.
One teacher`s suggestion was to put a rubber door stop under the soft pedal to prevent it`s use so that the player would develop the right skill in soft playing.

[Colin Nicholson]

The use of the left pedal on an upright is always controvercial - and if the music says "una corda" - then just like teaching seals to jump through hoops, we press this pedal. But yes.... the true meaning of "una corda" only lies with a grand piano. The keys & mechanism shift slightly to the right - so the hammers hit a smaller portion of the bass strings, and 2 of the 3 strings in the treble. The left treble string is left to just vibrate sympathetically. Some grands sound wonderful - just depends on how well the pedal shift mechanism is regulated.

[Jonathan the 2nd]

I have not seen any mention of the speed of return by an upright hammer in a piano with no stuck or jamming parts . But ,after the note sounds ,apart from the rebound action between strings and hammer felt and the little spring there is not much to alter the speed of return. Loud playing will be causing more bounce off the strings . Apart from that the rate of fall must be fairly constant. That`s what the tapes are changing.The speed of return. As the tape is already fitted before adjustment of the the metal support the max tape length would stop any further bending . Then the metal support would relax back slightly ,as metal does , and the tape will be left in a slightly relaxed position . It`s not necessary to stress the tape in that way though .There or thereabouts is sufficient. What specification would the first tapes have had ? Strong ,no stretch ,flexible and light. Light enough for a fast trill . Perfect.

[Jonathan the 2nd]

Well how easy is this ? After searching some history of pianos I found a page in Wikipedia--" Action (piano)" . There`s the standard diagram of an upright with all the parts labelled. Run down the list of parts till you see " Bl " which indicates the Bridle Tape.
Last 2 sentences sum up the purpose of Bridle Tapes.

Bl It`s purpose is to assist the hammer to return quickly by hanging to it with the weight of the wippen ,extension,jack,etc,when the key is released .

Thus the Bridle becomes the Main Factor in the matter of Quick Repetition.

The phrasing seems to come from an earlier era .
I had to edit my entry about Wikipedia .I put " Piano (action) " originally . But Wikipedia put "Action (piano)", which seems quite a dotty , back to front way to do it .

[Jonathan the 2nd]

Bridle . Used on a horse to keep it in control . Pulls it back . That`s the origin of the word. Also pulls the hammer back! Reins were attached to the bridle. One quick jerk was sufficient . The word tittuped describes the way a horse would suddenly put on the brakes . The poem "A Code of Morals " by Kipling uses that word .Pianos have been around a long time. That bridle arrangement could probably be seen in an old threshing machine .They would have used leather or something more durable than canvas or cloth.

[Colin Nicholson]

At present I`m an absolute beginner and my daughter played mostly. My basic attempts at trills seemed very awkward ,like galloping through treacle,and it may be down to some friction or stickiness in the mechanism. Already I have learned a little from your answer though.

Considering what you say here in your first sentence, you have come on in leaps & bounds - so much so - I should now be learning from you! or are now trying to prove me wrong?? Please do.

I would take some of the comments in Wikapedia with a pinch of salt, and I'm surprised you fell for it!! ....I mean - if you are literally "going by the book" - then this is not really the 'book' to reply on. It says "Modern Action" in the heading (ha ha!) - then it shows some mechanism of over 100 years old! - mmm Modern?

The text is right - when the hammer "returns" (that being returning to rest) - the bridle tape does assist, but I know various books that contradict this. However, the text does not enter into any kind of detail about what is actually happening during a trill, or when the hammer is in "mid flight" ??

Could you therefore explain to me what is happening at this point?
What aspects of the regulation would improve trill playing?
Does the bridle tape play an important role during trill playing?

The 1907 diagram also shows an ancient form of spring rail (sr).
Can you explain to me why they scrapped this method, what problems were encountered, and how the (real) modern piano compares?

Also in terms of repetition - would this action be heavier or lighter than a modern piano - and how did the design of the key capstans evolve over time?

Finally - although the text is fine to the average reader - it doesn't explain about quick repetition for a grand piano during a trill?? Therefore - can you give me three aspects of regulation in a grand that are not found in an upright piano, comparing each one???

[Jonathan the 2nd]

An article in 1998 --"Function and Replacement of Bridal Straps " by Bernt W Damm. He is a technical piano man from Cape Town , South Africa.
The primary function of the straps is explained clearly. Notice how he mis-spells the word Bridal instead of Bridle. It matches his sentences in para 6 where he says--"therefore the wippen must be "married to the hammer butt."
He uses two spellings also for "wippen" and "whippen". It sounds right to spell it like a whip as the action is a sudden flick and not slow like towing a trailer .
Make sure you read his article .
Delayed edit--
The reply above appeared before I had submitted this one. I think the article covers all those questions. (springs .repetition ,gravity effect on hammers in Grand Pianos etc ). He made a useful point about bending the stirrup support well away from the base of the wippen connection where they would tend to snap off .

[Jonathan the 2nd]

I actually was an absolute beginner as you quoted from my first post . Two days ago I could not do trills.I thought it was time to learn. As the piano was adjusted ( or not ) I could not do trills . Now , two days later , I can do trills. Simple as that . There was an extra point in the article about the tape restraining the hammer when a key is partially pressed by accident.That was useful to know .

[Colin Nicholson]

It's amazing what you find on the internet these days....

RDigest.JPG (88.46 KiB) Viewed 40977 times

[Jonathan the 2nd]

The magazine cover does not do anything so it must be the look on his face. The Cape Town explanation was much better for me than others I have seen, Well it worked too .That must mean something. The tiny effect of the tapes you yourself have mentioned is the most important factor for repetition as it lines up key action and hammer action accurately. That`s all you need . This topic began when the capstans and let off needed adjusting . I delayed using trills to simplify the early playing stages . It`s progress anyway .