Comparing Trills on Grands and Uprights.
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Comparing Trills on Grands and Uprights.
Post by Jonathan the 2nd »
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Re: Comparing Trills on Grands and Uprights.
Post by Colin Nicholson »
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Re: Comparing Trills on Grands and Uprights.
Post by Jonathan the 2nd »
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Re: Comparing Trills on Grands and Uprights.
It's impossible to give an empirical answer to 'What difference of movement in centimetres would I notice in finger movements'.
Why not discuss this with your piano teacher? Or simply try a variety of pianos?
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Re: Comparing Trills on Grands and Uprights.
Post by Jonathan the 2nd »
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Re: Comparing Trills on Grands and Uprights.
Post by Jonathan the 2nd »
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Re: Comparing Trills on Grands and Uprights.
Post by Jonathan the 2nd »
Re: Comparing Trills on Grands and Uprights.
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Re: Comparing Trills on Grands and Uprights.
Post by Jonathan the 2nd »
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Re: Comparing Trills on Grands and Uprights.
Post by Jonathan the 2nd »
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Re: Comparing Trills on Grands and Uprights.
Post by Jonathan the 2nd »
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Re: Comparing Trills on Grands and Uprights.
Post by Jonathan the 2nd »
Added note .----I tested this in a music shop last week. All on electric pianos. Some had a sluggish action and I could feel a delay and a few seemed glued to my finger as it moved upwards. That was on a keyboard which ,I think,was an organ design. I read that comparison somewhere. It may mean something. The key`s shape at the back was shaped in a slight downward curve. Why bother with that on an electric keyboard ? It was a red Nord keyboard with a very good Steinway sound .
Re: Comparing Trills on Grands and Uprights.
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Re: Comparing Trills on Grands and Uprights.
Post by Jonathan the 2nd »
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Re: Comparing Trills on Grands and Uprights.
Post by Colin Nicholson »
The bridle tape is not connected in any way to the piano key, in fact, with the mechanism in place in your piano, if you disconnect a bridle tape, the hammers & whippens will work in the same way without it. The main contribution to a hammer returning is 'inertia' - and the force of the hammer rebounding was enough for earlier pianos. Then the hammer butt spring - this is attached to a loop, which is attached to the hammer flange - and this does make a difference to the return.
Also, the tip of the jack must be precisely set just in the right place under the hammer - nudging against the curved leather part. If the jack is set too high (pushing on the leather) - then it doesnt reset itself quickly enough, and may 'catch' on the leather.... and on the other hand, if there is a gap between the leather & jack - this will cause "Lost Motion" between the key and hammer. The hammer only does what its "told" in relation to the position of the key capstan, and the jack - therefore the bridle tape just "joins in the ride" Also, if the leather is worn or perished (or the jack is badly regulated) - this will also cause poor repetition.
Yes, the bridle strap needs to be there - but for other reasons, and also contributes towards using the left pedal. Some very old pianos had jack "catchers" - like a hooked piece of wood to hold the hammers up against the jacks - but they often broke. The tapes are also very slightly 'slack' so that they do not interfere too much in the hammer's return - its a combination of inertia, butt spring, and the hammer notch allowing just enough room for the jack to reset itself ready for the next cycle.
For 'inertia' to work effectively (and the butt spring) - all parts need to be moving freely, and not binding. Flange centre pins must not be seized or tight - the jack springs should work effectively, and the key bushings also need to be working freely - so its often the case, a piano may have a sluggish feel to it, parts slightly binding, which in a combined total may slightly slow everything down. However, if the parts are good, and the piano regulated well - repetition should be good.... but a bridle tape is just a bridle tape! - nothing really to do with regular and rapid repetition.
Just one more thing.... you say hammers are "vertical" ??.... well they are not! - if you look closely, they are reclined by about 45 degrees (maybe a touch less) - they reach almost vertical as they strike the string. Also depending on how you play the piano, if a note is sustained, the hammer returns first into "check" - not the whippen. If you play a note staccato, both parts are almost simultaneously moving at the same time..... the hammer rest rail then takes the impact to stop the hammer back to rest. There needs to be a small amount of slack in the tapes to allow the jack to slide back under the hammer - if its too tight, this may cause positive motion.
Your tuner should know all this!!
Colin
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Re: Comparing Trills on Grands and Uprights.
Post by Jonathan the 2nd »
If the straps have absolutely no function apart from holding things together when you remove the mechanism ,why did they attach them to a moving part of each hammer. That seems a silly design idea.
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Re: Comparing Trills on Grands and Uprights.
Post by Colin Nicholson »
If you never use (or used) the left pedal - then I suppose the straps could be fixed elsewhere - but the wires are adjustable by means of bending them into the right position to allow for some tape 'play' (slack).
The tapes have 3 functions:-
1. Hold the mechanism together
2. Assist in the hammer return (only marginally)
3. Left pedal - the hammers 'tow' the tapes with the whippens.
When you press the left pedal down, the hammers move closer to the strings.... in doing so, the slack is then taken up on the tapes, and they become tight as the hammer 'tows' or drags the levers towards them.
There must be a small amount of slack so that the hammer moves first, then the whippen lever. The jack will then be lower, and a gap will be created - if you press a key slowly - watch the whippen moving first (by quite a bit) - then the hammer will move afterwards. When you let go of the pedal - the whippen & hammers move together at the same time.
To create the right "touch" for the left pedal, there should be some lost motion. If the tapes are too tight - then if the pedal is pressed, this will tow the lever at the same time as the hammer moving forward - no good! ....
when a mechanism is set up in a workshop, all the tapes must have about 2mm of slack to allow for the left pedal - if needed.
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Re: Comparing Trills on Grands and Uprights.
Post by Jonathan the 2nd »
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Re: Comparing Trills on Grands and Uprights.
Post by Jonathan the 2nd »
One teacher`s suggestion was to put a rubber door stop under the soft pedal to prevent it`s use so that the player would develop the right skill in soft playing.
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Re: Comparing Trills on Grands and Uprights.
Post by Colin Nicholson »
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Re: Comparing Trills on Grands and Uprights.
Post by Jonathan the 2nd »
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Re: Comparing Trills on Grands and Uprights.
Post by Jonathan the 2nd »
Last 2 sentences sum up the purpose of Bridle Tapes.
Bl It`s purpose is to assist the hammer to return quickly by hanging to it with the weight of the wippen ,extension,jack,etc,when the key is released .
Thus the Bridle becomes the Main Factor in the matter of Quick Repetition.
The phrasing seems to come from an earlier era .
I had to edit my entry about Wikipedia .I put " Piano (action) " originally . But Wikipedia put "Action (piano)", which seems quite a dotty , back to front way to do it .
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Re: Comparing Trills on Grands and Uprights.
Post by Jonathan the 2nd »
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Re: Comparing Trills on Grands and Uprights.
Post by Colin Nicholson »
Considering what you say here in your first sentence, you have come on in leaps & bounds - so much so - I should now be learning from you! or are now trying to prove me wrong?? Please do.Jonathan the 2nd wrote:At present I`m an absolute beginner and my daughter played mostly. My basic attempts at trills seemed very awkward ,like galloping through treacle,and it may be down to some friction or stickiness in the mechanism. Already I have learned a little from your answer though.
I would take some of the comments in Wikapedia with a pinch of salt, and I'm surprised you fell for it!! ....I mean - if you are literally "going by the book" - then this is not really the 'book' to reply on. It says "Modern Action" in the heading (ha ha!) - then it shows some mechanism of over 100 years old! - mmm Modern?
The text is right - when the hammer "returns" (that being returning to rest) - the bridle tape does assist, but I know various books that contradict this. However, the text does not enter into any kind of detail about what is actually happening during a trill, or when the hammer is in "mid flight" ??
Could you therefore explain to me what is happening at this point?
What aspects of the regulation would improve trill playing?
Does the bridle tape play an important role during trill playing?
The 1907 diagram also shows an ancient form of spring rail (sr).
Can you explain to me why they scrapped this method, what problems were encountered, and how the (real) modern piano compares?
Also in terms of repetition - would this action be heavier or lighter than a modern piano - and how did the design of the key capstans evolve over time?
Finally - although the text is fine to the average reader - it doesn't explain about quick repetition for a grand piano during a trill?? Therefore - can you give me three aspects of regulation in a grand that are not found in an upright piano, comparing each one???
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Re: Comparing Trills on Grands and Uprights.
Post by Jonathan the 2nd »
The primary function of the straps is explained clearly. Notice how he mis-spells the word Bridal instead of Bridle. It matches his sentences in para 6 where he says--"therefore the wippen must be "married to the hammer butt."
He uses two spellings also for "wippen" and "whippen". It sounds right to spell it like a whip as the action is a sudden flick and not slow like towing a trailer .
Make sure you read his article .
Delayed edit--
The reply above appeared before I had submitted this one. I think the article covers all those questions. (springs .repetition ,gravity effect on hammers in Grand Pianos etc ). He made a useful point about bending the stirrup support well away from the base of the wippen connection where they would tend to snap off .
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Re: Comparing Trills on Grands and Uprights.
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Re: Comparing Trills on Grands and Uprights.
Post by Colin Nicholson »
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Colin Nicholson Dip. Mus. CMIT CLCM PTLLS
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Re: Comparing Trills on Grands and Uprights.
Post by Jonathan the 2nd »
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