Berry 6 octave upright- how old?

[johny]

I have owned a small Berry 6 octave upright piano for the last 15 years and am now looking to sell it. I would like to know how old it is. There is a number incised into the rear of the wooden frame - 45385. A piano tuner once told me it was made that size for taking on ships where space/weight was limited. Might there be any truth in that? Would it also have been made in Crouch End at the Berry factory? Thanks

[Bill Kibby]

Must have been a very young tuner? There is no such thing as a ship's piano, 6-octave pianos were still very common in the sixties when I was working for Berrys, and the number suggests that your piano was made in 1960. I think that was just before Barratt & Robinson took over making them.

[johny]

Thanks for your response. The info on the date and place of manufacture was very interesting. No doubt the factory is now either flats or replaced by a superstore or both! Interesting also that a lot were made as my impression is there's very few around- did any other manufacturers make 6 octave pianos as well?

[Bill Kibby]

In the sixties, 7 octaves (85 notes) was the norm, and many 6-octave models were still selling, because although they were relatively expensive in terms of pounds per note, they were small and neat. Makers included Berry, Barratt & Robinson, Danemann, Bentley, Kemble, Lindner, Zender, to name but a few.

Very little piano music was written by the great classical composers outside 5 octaves.

[Bill Kibby]

We are having what I hope is a friendly discussion about the history of a piano, because this is a PIANO HISTORY forum, there is no need for anyone to be rude or abusive, nobody said it was a valuable antique, we are discussing history because we are INTERESTED. Anyone who isn't interested is not under any obligation to look at the forum, let alone offer rude, offensive or derogatory comments. These, and blind valuations will be removed.

[SimonD]

Hello,

I have read this page with interest as I also have a 6 octave Berry upright piano. It has a Kastner-Wehlau floating centre action. It has a number of different numbers on it - 6X 360 is embossed on the metal frame; 18558 is stamped on the timber soundboard in the bottom right hand corner, and 22253 is stamped onto each of the lowest two key mechanisms. From what I understand of Berry pianos, the first two digits represent the year of manufacture, which would suggest either 1918 or 1922, but I don't believe it is anywhere near that old. I think it dates from the 1960s, but I'd be interested in others' opinions.

The earliest hand written date is 1975, which presumably a date when it was tuned. I first remember the piano at my Grandmother's house in the early 70s. It was moved to my parent's house in around 1975/6 where I learned to play it, achieving grade 8 on it 10 years later. It now resides in my house, and my son is now working for his grade 8 on it.

It has been tuned regularly (ish) over the years and is still at concert pitch, and holds its pitch well. It has a good tone, despite it being a small piano (it is about 40" high). It's biggest problem is not that it is only 6 octaves, but that the keyboard is quite low, to the point that neither my son nor I can get our knees under it - we are both around 6 feet tall.

I'd love to know whether my thoughts on age are correct, or any other information you may have.

Regards,

Simon

[Colin Nicholson]

We sometimes rarely take several different random numbers offered for granted as being the right serial number just by typing here.... like any piece of silver, hallmark etc.... its best to download a picture of the actual numbers to confirm.

However, the "soundboard" number suggests 1922 if this is correct..... but a photo would confirm this.

The numbers on the first 2 keys will be a stock or parts numbers. Often used in the building process of eventually offering-up the keyboard to the action later in the process.

How did you arrive at the 1960's ?? word of mouth?

[SimonD]

Many thanks for the reply. I've got some photos below.

General view with the front panel removed.

Front view - front panel removed

Frame number and number on the sound board

- You can just make out the frame number and the number I thought might be a serial number.

The hammers

- The hammers (well, some of them...)

Numbers on the keys

- The numbers on the keys and tuning dates.

Sorry about the quality of the photos - partly due to poor light, but also not a great camera on my phone....

As far as the age is concerned, I only have my own instincts to go on, which are probably not that reliable. The inside bears more than a slight resemblance to this Barratt and Robinson piano (same make Kastner Welhau action) and I know that Barratt and Robinson took over Berry in the mid 1960s (think I read that here), and that's all I've got to go on.

I don't know whether it was tuned whilst my grandmother owned it, but the first tune in 1975 would tie up with when it was moved to our house (I had my first lesson as a 6 year old in 1976). It has been tuned reasonably regularly since, and holds its pitch well.

Thanks again for your help.

Simon

[Colin Nicholson]

Well.... the serial number on the soundboard looks genuine enough, and matches Pierce numbers around 1922.... BUT yeh, the piano is much later - as you say, around the 1970's - by the angular sloping front lid & cheeks, and definitely looks more modern. I'm not sure if "Nathaniel Berry & Sons" is the same name as your piano.... perhaps Bill can elaborate?

I dont have any separate serial numbers when these were registered later.

You might find the date stamped on the side of the first key (F) - by removing the key slip rail (usually one screw at either end). The hammers/ strings etc also look in good condition. Yes, the tuner's writing suggests November 1975? for one visit, and maybe the arrow denotes the stability of the pitch. If I have to raise the pitch slightly on a piano, on the tuner's card (not on the keys!) - I sometimes draw an upward arrow to denote this.

Dont quote me on this, but sometimes I use a cryptic method to find the approx. date. On average, (very roughly) - around 2000 pianos are made annually - this is a collective average.... so if your piano has the serial number starting 18,000 (whatever) - this means that up to that point, eighteen thousand pianos were made - thats what the serial number means. So.... apprx. 2k per year, that would add on about 9 years onto 1960...... so a rough guess, 1969?

I only use this method "if all else fails" - but I think I'm not far out.

[vernon]

I would guess from the style 1970s. It still has the old style Berry label. I didn't know Berrys were still around i tne 70s tho.
I don't remember them!

[Gill the Piano]

I tune one like this and it had a date scribbled on the underside of the end key. I THINK it was late 50s, but I can't swear to it. Not sure mine had floating centres though.

[Bill Kibby]

Many of the puzzles are not puzzling at all. By the early sixties, shortly before I worked for them, Berry pianos were made by Barratt & Robinson, and included their Kastner-Wehlau action with floating centres. Having already undressed the piano that far, it is simple to unscrew the nameboard, lift out a few keys from the bottom notes, and look for date-marks. See
http://pianogen.org/datemarks.html

I do not have a date for that number on computer, I will have a look at card and paper files.

[vernon]

At Barratt and Robinsons in The Grove, N.London,,Mr Kastner( he was German I think-he had a teutonic accent)was their engineer who designed the action and made the machines to produce them.
As Bill says,this will have been one of theirs.
I never knew till now that B&R made Berrys tho we sold dozens of B&Rs at the time, Mr MacDonald never mentioned them.
The floating centres and plastic key bushings were a brilliant innovation at the time but one of many that did not stand the test of time.
The biggest test of course is when a company ceases trading you can't get the unique bits.

[SimonD]

Many thanks for the comprehensive replies.

I will remove the nameboard and have a look at the side of some of the bass notes. I am assuming this is a case of lifting the key out and replacing it - no mechanisms to dismantle or anything like that? This will need to wait a day or two as I am refitting my kitchen which creates lots of dust, and I want to keep the piano closed up as much as possible until the job is complete.

Based on the information in this thread, it seems we are looking at a 1960's built piano, probably the equivalent of badge engineering on a car, in that it carries the Berry name but was built by Barratt and Robinson.

I'd be interested to know what Floating Centre Action is, and how it compares with more conventional designs. At the moment it all works well and none of the parts have been replaced.

Very many thanks,

Simon

[Bill Kibby]

The moving parts of a piano action are swivelled on pins known as CENTRE-PINS. Traditionally, these are bushed with cloth to provide a smooth, silent bearing. The floating centre is nylon (or something similar) and holds the pin between 3 flexible supports that should, theoretically, not get looser or tighter, in spite of variations in the wood, but remain at the preset degree of tightness. The keys are also bushed with nylon.

The disadvantages are that (1) as Vernon pointed out, replacement parts are no longer made, and (2) areas of the pins are exposed to the air, and can suffer corrosion. As with many piano problems, this would not even arise if people used their pianos regularly, the pins would be self-cleaning.

[Colin Nicholson]

I will remove the nameboard and have a look at the side of some of the bass notes. I am assuming this is a case of lifting the key out and replacing it - no mechanisms to dismantle or anything like that?

The keys should lift out easily - nothing attached, just the centre pin holding them in place.... when replacing them, make sure the brass capstan (at the back of the key) sits underneath the lever cloth - I usually lift the lever up first (the part where the red tipped bridle tape is attached) then slot the key in at an angle. As Bill suggests, the tops of the pins might be a little tight if corroded, so take care pulling the key out... however may not be necessary to fully remove the key, just lift it up about 3/4 of the way, enough to see if there are any markings or date stamp.

Also - dont remove any baize or paper washers!

[SimonD]

Hi Everyone, and Happy Christmas,

I did attempt to look at the underside of some or two of the keys, but they didn't come out very easily, so I decided not to spend too long risking damaging the piano by forcing a key out. However, from talking to my Mum, she remembers her mother-in-law buying the piano new not long after they met for the first time, so that puts its purchase date in 1966 or at the latest, 1967. Mum believes that my Grandmother didn't ever have the piano tuned, so the 1975 tuning date for first tune stacks up as that is when it was moved to our house.

Thanks again for everyone's help - very much appreciated.

regards,

Simon