Unknown Piano

[Tehtog]

We've had this piano in our family for years. I was wondering if anyone can help me find more about it's history.
It was actually a wedding present to my parents. It looks like it was supposed to have candlestick holder and as if someone has removed part of the legs. This happened long before my parents got it.


Gallery of high-res pictures


These days it's not in a great state of repair. It needs a few new pins and it's terribly out of tune. The plate that has worn away used to have a name on it around 20 years or so ago (or so I remember) but it's long since gone. .I'm hoping a little more info on the actual piano will give us the shove we need to seek having it repaired.


We were once told It was a german piano dating back to the 1800s. There doesn't seem to be any plates with serial numbers anywhere that I can see. I've tried to find a similar/the same piano online but with no luck but having a look on this forum it looks similar to h.lubitz pianos so that could be it.

[Bill Kibby]

Sconces (projecting candle-holders) would have been normal, and the legs are of a type known as TRUSSES, nothing missing except the pointed part known as a DRIP, as shown at
http://pianogen.org/british.html

I would guess this was around the 1890s. The pictures show a little of the interior, but if you want to be braver, and look for clues, see
http://pianogen.org/datemarks.html

Ask your tuner to check whether the action is marked on the rear with the action makers' name and number, I may be able to date this.

[Colin Nicholson]

We often see many pianos like this, but with fictitious names. I think that even if the name plate was clearly marked with the 'name' of the piano, this doesn't guarantee its the actual maker's name - many were wholesaler's names, or even the name of the city/street where the piano belonged. In most cases, a genuine name is often inlaid in brass lettering, and 'stamped' into the veneer on the fallboard - with a rectangular piece of matching veneer to be inserted. Your piano might have this veneer section?.... but with the plate screwed on over the top.

I also fear that the few loose pins and being badly out of tune may be a result of a crack in the wrest plank. Once this occurs, a few temporary repairs can be made (along with a few strings replaced) - but it might be uneconomical to consider any kind of refurbishment. The missing ivory heads (and cracked ones) can be replaced, but you might find that several more are loose, and the 'white glue' joints have dried up and separated. This is an 'overdamped' piano - and not many piano specialists want to tackle them - they are also notorious for "ringing on", and the damper rail may be warped. If all else fails - the attractive panels are probably worth more than the piano itself! .... and joiners/ carpenters often look for these features in a home restoration.

Some photos of the mechanism (with the front panel removed) may give us more clues to the identity.

[Tehtog]

First off, Let me say thank you for the quick replies. I appreciate it.
Around a decade ago we had a piano tuner in who was able to tell us that it was a german piano and had a very good tone from it. He quoted us £80 to have it 'restored' to working order. Unfortunately he was always busy (being the head of a local orchestra) and last I heard he had died. I think it's out of tune because it's been moved twice (two different houses) and never been tuned after being moved.

The name was on the fallboard in gold lettering and a plastic/glass cover over that. Over the years however the gold has disintegrated.

I've no idea how to remove the front panel, Is there a specific way to do it?

[Bill Kibby]

It should be a one-minute job if you follow the instructions at
http://pianogen.org/datemarks.html

[Colin Nicholson]

The piano certainly looks German from the outside.
In most cases, plastic "perspex" covers were used to add another name to the piano, and the gold lettering applied on the reverse side. It's quite easy to get hold of gold lettering sets, so it may not have been the original name.

If you have any difficulty finding the section on the website, here is a quick photo of your piano with arrows!.... simply open the top lid fully so it folds back on itself, then on the inside of the top front panel (shown by arrows), will be a wooden turnbuckle holding the panel against the side panels with either a wooden dowel, or a wooden tab. Simply turn the turnbuckles (wooden pegs) about 1/4 of a turn so they are facing 12 o'clock to free the panel - then move the panel towards you and lift.
The fallboard also just lifts out vertically.
There's quite a bit of difference between "out of tune" and 'out of tune' ! .... one will be "run a mile, never come back out of tune" .... and the other will be "a quick tap of some of the pins out of tune" .... a tuner will spot it a mile off.

FrontPanel.JPG (138.25 KiB) Viewed 22716 times

[Tehtog]

Unfortunatly it seems there was a repair done (right beside the left arrow) where the piano had cracked and been glued together. This means that the panel won't budge. I don't want to force the fallboard but I presume that panel has to come out first?

[Bill Kibby]

Yes, the top door has to come out first. someone has bodged it, and it cannot be tuned or repaired without opening it.

[Tehtog]

I've managed (being rather careful) to remove the wooden piece in question and get a few photos. I don;t have my SLR at the moment so i'm afraid the quality of the pictures is quite poor. If this isn't good enough I could get better photos within a few days. (indeed I probably will).


Album of other photographs taken

These include what seems to a marking made in the brass. I can't quite make it out though. (Sorry for the glare, Camera was so horrible I needed the flash).

[Colin Nicholson]

Usual mechanism, illegible markings, wrest plank arrangement etc for this period.
Can't make anything out - V. POOR photos sorry to say!....

For mechanism shots, need to be much much closer & crystal clear WITH flash.... but thanks anyway. Certainly no clues there to the maker's name, and I thought these photos were for your benefit?

The brass sheeting doesn't have a maker's name, this would be clearly shown if it was there. The brass sheeting is just a protective cover for the wrest plank, mainly for ornamentation. Sometimes there is a decal there. The lower panel removed may have some clues - think of opening a wardrobe! .... again, either a wooden spring in the middle (under the keys), or turnbuckles at each end... right underneath, so get down on your knees. Might be a bit dusty down there!

If there is any way you can safely remove the mechanism (but make sure the bridle tapes are not broken**), there may be a name there - but again, we need to stress that we can only comment on what we see, and photos need to be nice & clear, like the first one of the main casework. Hope it didnt cause too much damage getting panel off....

**About 1/4 of the way up the mechanism, you will see small red-tipped leather tapes, attached to a small vertical wire (behind the long wires). IF any of these are broken or have come away from their 'curled' bridle wires, then DONT try to remove the mechanism.

Regards
Colin

[Tehtog]

I realise the photographs are poor. The first set were taken with an SLR which someone has borrowed so this was the best I could do until I get it back in a week or so.

[Colin Nicholson]

Thanks for trying anyway. Problem is , is that when we get photos, some new members say, "sorry about the quality of the photo" ...... but in reality, the photo sent to us is for THEIR benefit, not us! .... so you are doing yourself out of finding out any further information.... best to delete them if they are blurred.

Anyway, to give you a better understanding, you are looking for the name yeh? .... thanks for sending the pic of the whole mechanism, BUT, we dont need to see this really (unless you want a description of the type' of movement etc)....and it doesn't tell us anything about its name - afterall, hundreds & thousands of pianos had different names, but often had the same or very similar mechanism. Only some old mechanisms (eg Bluthner over-damped have tubular rails) they can be distinctive.... so try looking for something maybe "XYZ of BERLIN" .... if there is NO name inside anywhere, we wont know the name - unless its on the reverse side of the mechanism - and I would get a tuner to lift it out.

Here is an example below.... This piano is named by the way, but can you tell me what name it is by the first photo at a distance? mmmm, maybe not. ok.... the name is also in raised iron lettering behind the bass strings on the left, incorporated into the cast iron frame. So.... I have taken another photo close-up of the actual name. Someone once said to me.... "does "Bell" mean anything to you" ?? ! .... and of course, this is the name of the piano, "Bell London" ...... there are sometimes clues on the side of the first key, and this shows an example of the key makers, the mechanism is date stamped July 1924. I wouldn't recommend you to take out the mechanism & turn it upside down.... it might drop to bits!! ...... but you need a VERY detailed trained eye, and often a torch to discover many hidden DEEP clues, and look well beyond what you can see 'externally' With your mechanism being quite tall, it hides things more than an under-damped mech.

Hope that helps further....
See below....

The 2nd photo now ZOOMS IN on any wording/lettering (that makes sense) .... and we can see very clearly the name of the piano, on the off-chance the name was missing on the fallboard. Click on the photo twice - and see the detail!

[goodenbp]

I noticed the photo of your piano looks rather similar to one I have purchased recently. Mine may have some decorative features not incorporated on yours, but there are so many other similarities I thought you may be interested. I would be pleased to supply photos of details if you would like that for restoration purposes. The nameplate is "L. Herrmann & Co Berlin" (yes double r and n) However as per the experts comment earlier, I don't know if this is the real name. The shape of the label is identical to yours.The trusses seem the same and I have the "DRIP" referred to earlier.
It is an overdamped 3/4 iron frame. I confess I fell in love with the decorative carving in the center panel, and original sconces. It is very ornate. The challenge for me, as a complete piano novice, is to get it all working and tuned armed with a recently purchased copy of Reblitz's book!
I attach a picture of the piano for you for comparison.
Brian

[Bill Kibby]

To me, the piano doesn't seem that similar, it is better looking and certainly German. Herrmann does seem to be a real maker, established in 1835. Some pianos mention the year 1899, possibly an exhibition medal, as described at
http://pianogen.org/exhibition.html

Some pianos are labelled HERRMANN LIST, possibly a different firm, Herrmann being the forename.

The "drip" suggests a rough date around 1895, see
http://pianogen.org/edwardian.html
That page also mentions the decorative gallery on the top.

If you have a serial number inside, we may be able to date it, my guess is 1893. The action may be marked with the action makers' name and number, and I may be able to date this.

[goodenbp]

Comments noted Bill and you are right of course. Some of the inside features looked similar, but perhaps the same parts were used by more than one piano maker. On a closer look at the frame I see that it is different to the "unknown". I also note that exact style of one of nameplates in the link reference you gave was a different company but exactly the same shape nameplate so that can't be relied on.
Yes, there is the same serial number in two places. One on the top of the wooden piece that is above and part of the mechanism above the dampers in the picture and the same number is stamped onto the inside of the side just out of frame to the right. The number is 6350. I have included a photo showing part of the interior.
Regards
Brian

[Bill Kibby]

I am sorry that the published dates I have are for Alexander Herrmann, and would place the piano at 1913, which is wrong. The action looks to be in good condition, so if you feel able to remove it, there may be markings on the rear. Otherwise, ask your tuner.

[Colin Nicholson]

Just take care if you do decide to remove the action. If there are any broken or weak bridle tapes (red leather tipped ends attached to a wire), when the mechanism is removed, the tapes hold the mech together, and prevent the jacks from dislocating from the hammers. If any break after removal - then please don't try to put the mech back, or you will damage/break parts inside - let us know. The reason I say this is because I notice the last few tapes have been replaced (brown tipped) - and there seems to be an 'emergency' clip-on tape used near the middle?

As long as the levers are resting on the key capstans - the mech is fine (even if tapes are broken/weak), and you could try to recline the mech slightly towards you to see behind - might be better than removing it. OR.... ask your tuner to assist.

[goodenbp]

Gentlemen thank you for your input and advice. I did have a good look at being able to remove the action. I had initially thought it was simply a matter of rotating the two wooden retainers on either side to free it. Then I found that it was also screwed down from underneath at the back of the keyboard bed, holding down the vertical member of the action on either end. The two rear screws were only just accessible from underneath. However the frame was still held in place and it looks as if there are two additional screws from underneath and these ones closest to the keyboard are completely covered and seem inaccessible without removing all the keys at least to remove the wooden member under the keyboard bed or taking it out with the keyboard bed. Wow! Hard to imagine they would make it so difficult to access. I was starting to realise why the books say piano tuners don't like working on old overdamped pianos. So I have put that on hold as the notes all play although two are somewhat reluctant.
By in large the notes are surprisingly in tune with each other, although pitch is down at A 410 Hz well off concert pitch. So I figured I will see if I can get it in tune at a cautious 420 and see if the pegs hold there in doing so uncover any further problems before removing the action. I won't try to get up to concert pitch as it will probably be too much for the old thing. I will file your advice for that scary day.
Brian

[Bill Kibby]

You are absolutely right, it would normally be a simple matter of turning the clips either side, so it sounds like someone has messed about with it in the course of the restoration. It would be a great nuisance to go through that performance every time a small adjustment required the action to be tipped forward, or removed. Overdampers are not at all difficult for access. You seem to be saying that the screws come all the way through from under the keybed? Very wise not to attempt it. Perhaps you will have a tuner in one day. Pitch raising is a difficult thing even for an experienced tuner, and there is a lot of variety of opinion. I tend to aim for no more than an eighth of a semitone on each tuning. Most pianos outside museums were designed to come up to modern pitch, and a piano that simply doesn't hold in tune is nothing to do with pitch. It may be instability because of neglect, or wrestpins (tuning pins) that are loose, or a combination of the two. Loose pins lead to increased movement, metal fatigue, and string breakage. Having spent years learning tuning, I am horrified at the thought of someone who doesn't have that experience attempting what can be a risky operation, but it is difficult at a time when tuning often costs more than an old piano is worth.

[Colin Nicholson]

It sounds similar to a 'grand action' removal, and if there are 2 horizontal hidden screws - these will be attached to part of the key frame. I suspect by the photo, if you remove the 2 screws at each end of the centre key rail, this may separate the keyframe from the key bed, then turn those wooden turn-buckles, and the complete action & keyboard should slide out towards you - rocking it gently side to side. This would also be the procedure to insert the muting strip into the strings prior to tuning. Also - have a look for any 'exposed' screws - undo one at a time, and see what happens. The front rail (one with the lock) - may also be detachable, but if not, it will be fixed to the keyframe. So imagine this as a household bed....

Bed base - keybed (fixed)
Mattress - keyframe (removeable by sliding)
Quilt cover - keys!

I reckon the whole lot will slide forward without having to remove any keys.

If you DID want to separate the action from the keyframe, you have to slide the whole out together to get to the side screws. However.... its very heavy! If I have to remove an action like this (on my own) - I take all the keys out first to reduce the weight. Once the whole action & keyframe is on a table - its quite easy to get to the screws. However, there are some pianos (eg Eavestaff minis) that have 3 hidden screws under a piano key each - the screws are usually located on or near the centre key rail (where you see the centre rail pins).... hope that helps

[goodenbp]

Gentlemen thank you again for your time and wise council. Regarding the tuning. I measured and recorded the exact frequency of every note at the start so I have a "Before" snapshot. Nothing is too far out from each other. The pitch is just a bit low. This is remarkable since this piano survived the second world war in Poland of all places, came out to Australia (it seems even pianos emigrate) and apparently was not tuned for some 25 years! I figured that a serious issue like a cracked pinblock or loose pins would show as some notes way out of tune, so I am hopeful that there are no major issues. Melbourne's dry climate has limited rusting but string breakage is clearly a risk. So you advice to be very cautious in lifting pitch is appreciated. Perhaps I should be content to leave the pitch where it is for now and just have a go at tuning it. Colin I am sure you are correct. I could see a screw holding down the key bed after removing a few keys and wondered if it was the way to do it. I had thought I may need to remove all they keys. They are numbered. Don't you like the carving. Not a scratch on it after all these years!
Brian