Carl Ecke Berlin Upright piano

[marion u]

I have a Carl Ecke Berlin Upright piano which has been passed down as an heirloom through the family since it was originally purchase some hundred odd years ago.

Some great grandfather many times removed bought it for his wife as a wedding gift. It came to South Africa by boat and was carted from Durban harbour to Pietermaritzburg by ox wagon where it was sold by Vause Slatter & Co, Martizburg. It has amazing history, having been "captured" by the British when they took over these ancestor's farm during the Anglo-Boer war, occupying their home with all their furnishings for many years. The only way the piano was kept in the family when they finally were able to return home, was by them being able to identify it by a missing piece in the wooden edging on the top side of the piano. We have no idea what happened to the missing piece - whether it fell off on the voyage, or on the ox wagon trip (which sounds more feasible as it had been sold to them by Vause Slatter in Pietermaritzburg). Piecing together the family history, dates of birth and marriage, etc. I would assume they probably bought this piece originallly somewherebetween 1890 - 1900 (but I could be wrong).

I am not sure if I have the correct serial number, but on opening the top lid, there is a number stamped onto the left side panel at the top. The number is about 7mm in height. If this is the serial number, it is: 7176.

Just below that to the right on the wooden plank that holds the tuning pins (?), is handwritten (seemingly) Mock No. 205. I have not yet opened the piano further to establish any other markings or numbers.

The piano is in immaculate condition, complete with a crest in the centre with two winged dragons, and an intricate brass candelabra on either side.

I do have many pictures of the piano and its various features, but am struggling to upload them here. Perhaps I could email them?

Are you able to assist with approximate dating of this piano?

I look forward to hearing from you.

Kind regards
Marion Ueckermann

[Colin Nicholson]

Hello Marion

Although Bill will confirm this, to my records, your piano date suggests between 1870 - 1875.

During the early years of Carl Ecke, serial numbers were only recorded every 5 years, then after WW2, recorded annually until 1952.

#6000 - 1865
#8600 - 1870

If you note, 2,600 pianos were recorded between these 5 years - so if you divide this number by 5, then the nearest serial number to yours will give you a date.

Hope this helps for now....

Colin

[marion u]

Thanks Colin for the info. Just to clarify however, did you mean the piano date suggested is between 1870 - 1875, or rather 1865-1870>

If I do the calculation as you advised, then I come out at the piano being around 1867, ie.:

2600 divide 5 = approx. 520 pianos per year. Therefore:
#6000 - 6520 = 1865-1866
#6521 - 7040 = 1866-1867
#7041 - 7560 = 1867-1868 My piano's serial number is 7176
#7561 - 8080 = 1868-1869
#8081 - 8600 = 1869-1970

I have more photos, but my internet is problematic tonight, so I'm unable to upload any more.

Regards
Marion Ueckermann

[Colin Nicholson]

Hi Marion

Sorry - I meant 1865 - 1870, which I see I contradicted in my first sentence!
You are spot-on, and thats how we work out dates & serial numbers when there is a gap in the years - so well done, you've worked it out.

Don't forget though, the dates are approximate - but its nice to think of "1867" rather than a 5 year span. However, sometimes the serial numbers are printed/ punched/ etched onto the frame/ soundboard/ wrest plank up to around a year or so before the frame is attached to the "body work" - and often is the case, parts of the piano eventually meet up after several months or even years.... however, the photo looks about right for that period.

I tuned a very old piano last week - dated about this period, and I also managed to find a date stamp "1888" on the underside of the movement.... rarely stamped, but the customer's eyes lit up when they saw it. Again.... approximate, and I usually say "within 2 years".... but then again, there is no other way to prove it. I also discovered the rare "una corda shift" for the left pedal, and the piano was double over-strung (and over-damped) - so your piano tuner may be able to give you more information. Dont forget - we see MILLIONS of pianos just like yours, walnut, sconces, stalagtite turned columns with matching truss work - so we can only go on the overall look - then back up the date with the serial number.

Regrettably though - many pianos like this are difficult to tune accurately due to loose tuning pins/ ringing-on dampers and other "over 100 year" inherant problems....

hope that helps

Colin

ps.. you have also typed "1970" !! easily done - and in fact this is also mis-printed in the Pierce Piano Atlas.... I think it should be 1870

[marion u]

Thanks Colin. That's so interesting.
It's great to get so accurate an estimation on the date.
Yep, it's easy to get the fingers mixed and type the wrong century :)

Here are some of the photos of the piano. I'll upload the last 2 or 3 on a separate mail as it seems I've reached my quota.

Regards
Marion

[marion u]

The last of the photos of my Carl Ecke.

Just wanted to confirm, is this a walnut finish?

Kind regards
Marion Ueckermann

[Colin Nicholson]

Yes, the veneer is walnut - and of good quality (not solid wood). An artist has also painted various sweeping brush strokes with a pony-hair brush to emphasise the grain & design - and mirror imaged them on the lid etc.
The beading/ moulding and parts of the framework around the carving & sconces is usually "plain" walnut, but this may be mahogany - difficult to see.

The missing moulding at the top left is also replaceable - but may not exactly match, so I would replace the lot with an authentic moulding & then french polished.

It would be interesting to see the keys & keyboard? Are the key tops ivory?

If you are brave enough, why not lift off the sconces arms (complete with candles), then remove the front panel - this is interesting to me!!.... to see the internal mechanism. Send them to my email if you wish, and I'll post them back here. If you open the top lid, you will see 2 wooden pegs at either end - just turn these 45 degrees, then pull the front panel towards you.

Colin

[marion u]

Hi Colin

We have had the front panel off before. I'll get my hubby to remove it tomorrow night and take some pictures of that and the keys (which are still in immaculate condition) and upload them here.

By the way, just a question sort of off this subject, what serial numbers did Carl Ecke use between 1890 and 1901? I need this for research for a novel that I'm writing.

My father in law had often wanted to have the missing piece replaced, but I think it would be a shame to do that, because it would be blotting out all that beautiful history that goes along with that missing piece. Just the romantic novelist inside of me perhaps - you'd probably disagree

Kind regards

Marion

[Colin Nicholson]

The serial numbers from 1890 - 1905 are as follows:-

#13000 1890
#14500 1895
#16800 1900
#18000 1905

Year 1901 would be about #17040

The last serial number recorded was in 1952 #36000 (making 36,000 pianos)

Another similar piano to this, with similar central carvings & mouldings were made by Carl Mand. I restored one a few years ago - and it had a missing moulding. These are sometimes broken off if the piano is transported on its side (up-ended), and if the moulding catches the ground, they can break off. Have a look inside the bottom of the piano - you never know! the bottom panel is also removeable.

[Bill Kibby]

I'm sorry, I don't know where my reply went to! Your maths is exactly right, but 1867 assumes that the production was absolutely level, and we have no precise information, although it does looks something from around 1870. Ask your tuner to see if the action is marked with the action makers' name and number, as described at
http://pianogen.org/numbers.html

[marion u]

Thanks Bill.

Regards
Marion

[marion u]

Colin

Sorry it's take a few days, but we managed to get time today to open the front to take pictures of the interior and the keys.

Here are the first pics of the keys. We noted two dates, which would have been tuning dates (I guess it's long overdue, although I know one date was skipped - was done by a blind piano tuner). Latest date is by D. Foster on 8.8.70 and the other, a hundred years ago, on 1/2/12 by A.E. P............. (and I can't read the rest). Fascinating.

Sending interior on separate post.

Kind regards
Marion

[marion u]

Hi Colin

Some interior pics:

Kind regards
Marion

[Bill Kibby]

I am tempted to a later date, but very little information is available about German pianos of that sort of age. Although Watson is much bolder, I suppose it is quite possible it refers to 1870. The action details would be on the rear of the action, at the position I have marked, but I cannot decide if the devices that attach the action to the keys will present problems of access, or risk of damage. It looks like a Morgenstern & Kotrade action.

[marion u]

Colin

A few more, and then I have two or three I'll send on the last post with interior markings:

Kind regards
Marion

[Bill Kibby]

You may have missed some detail on my previous post, because I was still editing it when you posted again.

Bill

[marion u]

Just some final pics of the markings (serial numbers):


This is the serial number I sent - 7176. This is on the left side of the piano at the top.
Just below there's another marking - Mock No. 205 (or Plock?) (enlarged picture below this one).
Do you know what this refers to?

Here the serial number is duplicated, hidden way at the back on the right side of the piano.

And lastly, just a pic of the key numbers (85 on this model).

Regards
Marion

[Bill Kibby]

I'd say that is some English dealer's stock number. The serial number seems clear and not in doubt, I just wish the published dates were more trustworthy!

[marion u]

Thanks Bill.

You may have missed some detail on my previous post, because I was still editing it when you posted again.

Bill

[marion u]

Ah, STOCK No. ... now I see it!

Thanks.

I'd say that is some English dealer's stock number. The serial number seems clear and not in doubt, I just wish the published dates were more trustworthy!

[Colin Nicholson]

The pictures are very interesting, and everything looks to be in good condition - I suspect quite a bit of work has been done inside.

I tuned a piano very similar to this 2 weeks ago.... the interior was similar, but not as much carvings etc to the exterior. The long pieces of wood dowelling that connect the keys to the underside of the action are a sort of "primative" version of being a "sticker action". These allow the stickers to sway slightly to the right when pressing the left pedal - hence I suspect this may be fitted with a "una corda shift" device.... this also "nudges" the hammers slightly to the right, striking 2 of the 3 strings.

The bottom end of each sticker simply pulls out of a deep hole, but the hole is not bushed, the sticker is bushed instead. I also think the action can only be removed by sliding the complete keyboard & mechanism towards you.... however, removing or replacing the mechanism alone would involve removing the keys first, so when the stickers are slotted back in - there is no damage done to the glued end at the top.... a job certainly for a piano tuner!! There may also be 2 or 3 large screws securing the keyframe to the keybed.

Marion.... if you would like an action photo edited, showing the names of the parts, please let me know. Also unique to this action, there are no spiral jack springs, I suspect at the back of each jack is a "leaf" spring - similar in design to a modern damper mechanism spring.

Would be good though if you could press the left pedal & watch the mechanism - I might be wrong about it sliding to the right (hence the reason those stickers are fitted) - but it might be a standard celeste rail instead.

Colin

[marion u]

Thanks Colin for all that interestesting information.

Yes, I think back around 1970, not long after my mother-in-law inherited the piano, the guy who tuned it for her did a some work on it. However, it appears through the history of the piano, that it has been well looked after by every family member who owned it.

That would be great if you could send the edited action photo if it's not too much trouble.

If the left pedal is pressed, the action does move to the right.

My husband can remove the mechanism, which he wants to do anyway to give the piano a good clean beneath the keys. We will take a photo when we do that and send it to you. We found some wood shavings underneath the keys hence a good clean is required. Also found another date stamp on the side of key number one indicating 1898.

Kind regards
Marion

[Bill Kibby]

A key would not usually be stamped with a date or year.

While he is there, perhaps he can find the action maker's name and number.

[Colin Nicholson]

I tried to "write over" one of your photos, but it looked a bit messy and cramped!.... so to suffice, here is a similar action model like yours with some of the parts labelled. Some models are not fitted with damper springs, and the capstans are a different design to your piano (the ones shown in the diagram are much easier and quicker to adjust!).... but they do the same job.

You will also see a chrome-like metal sheet backing for the tuning pins?.... this is just a thin metal sheet protecting the wrest plank.... so the tuning pins pass through the sheeting and are embedded into hard rock maple.

Your mechanism & stringing are of the following design:-

3/4 iron frame with protected metal sheet over wrest plank.

(Regrettably the metal sheet is mainly for show!)

Over strung/ over-damped (bird cage action) with bridle tapes.

[soraya]

Hi,

I have a Carl Ecke upright piano and I was wondering if you could help me to date mine? The serial number is #20706, so judging by the information you laid out I estimate it to be about 1910? Would you agree, or am I way off? I can add some photos if that helps.

Kind regards,
Soraya

[Bill Kibby]

20706 should be about 1911, but Ecke's dates seem about right, it would be nice to see photos.

[goof]

When I lived in Durban, left for Zim in 85, I had a piano identical to yours. I kept my eye out for in the newspaper smalls. I played one in a mine club house in Dundee, and fell inlove withe the tone.
From the photographs I think a lot of work has been done on the action - it is very clean and the red tabs on the bridle straps are planly vinyl, the original were leather and would have lasted for ever.
I made a string winding machine for" Poonans Pianos" in Durban and in payment he repolished the Ecke and replaced, quite unnessarily, the bridle straps: thats how I can tell . I took the piano up to Zim and the pinblock dried out so much that I removed the pins and had them replated to oversize.
When I left Zim ,in 2002, to come to Bristol I sold the piano to a friend who then took it with him to Perth!!
I remember I paid R 150 in 1983. There was a Carl Ecke grand advertised in Dbs for over R1000.
I hope your familly continue to enjoy this fabulous brand. I guess many were imported to S.A. due to French and Dutch connections to the Cape.
Oh! the keys are definately ivory topped.