Restringing ?

[Otto]

I have a 1985 Steinway grand, and have been playing it for a couple of hours most days since I bought it in 2004.

According to its history it's already on its third set of hammers and was completely restrung around 1997.Just recently some of the dampers (like about 4 or 5) have been 'slow' in their work and have allowed the higher harmonics to sound longer than lower ones as the damper is lowered slowly. My tuner has found a brown stained line on the felts as if the string was getting rusty. He's cured that for the moment, presumably by cleaning everything up. Maybe the dampers are absorbing too much moisture from the room (I normally keep it fairly cool). The piano is a bit over-powerful for the room it's in, but that's been long sorted out by 'felting' the duplex for all but the top span of strings.

Sorry about the long preamble.

My problem is that I'm finding that progressively more and more of the notes in the second span of treble notes are beginning to make a 'thunky' sound when you play them - a bit like having a tuning wedge blocking off a couple of strings. That's in the area in the octave above the treble clef. So far I've got half a dozen like that and it's increasingly bugging me.

I've heard that restringing top spans / sections is a fairly common occurrence on these beasties, so wondered if that was the solution.

What does the august panel think and how much will I need to save to get the work done ?

[Colin Nicholson]

Have you had the mechanism regulated recently?

Sometimes the 'thunky' sound is caused by hammers blocking against the strings when you hit a note. If you look inside, over the top of the strings - see what the hammers are doing. Depending on the condition of the back checks, and how the set-off is regulated, each hammer should bounce from the string, and remain in 'check' - a distance of about 15mm from the strings. Also - the set-off may need adjusting.... press a key very very slowly, watch the hammer rise - in the treble, the hammer should 'kick' away about 1-2mm from the string. If the hammer doesn't move, and therefore blocks against the string(s) - your mechanism will need to be regulated (adjusted) .... totally separate to tuning.

If it is the strings, assuming downbearing is OK - and wrest plank is solid, a restring could be the answer, but I usually recommend to change the wrest plank after 2 sets of strings & pins. Also will need dampers replaced and hammers refaced or renewed.

Price depends on the length & model of the piano??
A rough estimate - around 2.5 to 3K

Hope that helps

[Otto]

mmm ...

On close inspection, the regulation seems just fine and all the hammers fall short of the strings in that section, and all are stuck (on their jacks?) at exactly the same spot, waiting for the key to be lifted. I note the problem appears to be in the section where the frame forms a bridge with the strings using a 'sharp edge' rather than the agraffes that are found in all the lower notes (they're just fine).

I can't afford £3k at the moment, but will be able to when I move, as I'm going to build myself another music room. So maybe a 'refit' could be planned for some time in the not too distant future

In the meantime, is a sensible sticking plaster solution to restring just that section and just see how I go with any issues (we may be fine on the pins / wrest plank front)? Incidentally, I think all the wound strings are the originals, and they're still just fine thanks.

[Colin Nicholson]

You could try just restringing a couple of tri-chords first (3 X looped wire), and see if that makes a difference. I doubt there will be a problem with the capo bar/ (inverted bridge section) - but there may be a downbearing issue on the main bridge near the hitch pins. If it also has duplex scaling, those small mountains of alloy may have moved aswell. When I restring Steinway - I use digital verniers to check their original position before removal. They need to go back exactly where they were before.

Finally, just check the damper lift? .... I presume they are all lifting happily from the strings, both when played as solo notes, and with the sustain pedal.

Difficult to know obviously without seeing it & playing it.... you'll have to get a tech guy in I think.

[Johnkie]

sounds like it could be to do with something being split inside .... tight dampers rusty coloured strings that weren't rust ..... ?

I have sometimes come across pianos with problems similar to this, and the deadness has been the direct result of something being spilt and travelled down the string to where it passes under the top bridge of the ironframe, where it has evaporated and gone thick and sticky. An old tooth brush with a mild solvent to scrub the area affected normally cures the deadness. You would need to pull the action out and use a mirror to inspect the area, so either be very careful or get a professional to have a look. Isolated areas of strings in the treble don't usually get as bad as you imply unless it's something very simple (like a spillage) or quite serious ( like bridge damage ).

[Otto]

Hi Folks,

I think I'm certainly exaggerating the problem, but the problem certainly exists to my ears, and has only started to bug me in the last three or four months. It's nothing like bad enough for any casual listener to even notice or remark on, but by the same token, if they could compare it with what it sounded like a year ago, I'm sure they'd notice a difference, as the notes don't 'sing' the way they used to (the damper lift & clearance is just fine). It's most noticeable with high-speed runs through the treble sections as unevenness in sound.

I'll follow your advice Colin and have a couple of adjacent trichords restrung, and while my tech.'s doing that we'll follow Johnkie's advice and see if there's any crud by the capo bar (couldn't remember the proper name last time round!). Perhaps we could clean the ones that don't get replaced and see what that difference has made over the following two or three months. I don't think it'll be any of the more drastic things on offer, considering its age and usage. To my eye as a design engineer, the bridges look just fine too. Incidentally I've been paranoiac about drinks anywhere near it, and don't think it's ever suffered a spill.

It's used for my practising (as it's mine!) and also fairly regular mini-concerts (mostly chamber music). I really want to keep it in the best condition I can, as the adverts say, "Because it's worth it".

Thanks folks, and if I'm doing anything daft, I'm sure you'll not hesitate to tell me !

[vernon]

It really does sound like something spilt in it to me.
Try all the easiest remedies first.
I can't remember any small section of any piano misbehaving in isolation.
You must get an experienced tech to give an opinion before you do anything drastic

[Colin Nicholson]

Don't quote me on this, but I still reckon its a regulation thing..... and Otto - could you answer my question I asked earlier!!

Have you had the mechanism regulated recently?

This is the adjustment of the mechanism - nothing to do with the capo bar or tuning.
Also involves re-regulating key dip, key levelling, dampers, set off, checking, drop screws....? etc etc

Here is a quick test to check the set-off (and combined key dip).... which I think wasn't answered either.

1. Press a note down firmly & loudly (one in the affected area) -

2. Keep it pressed down, then push the key down even further - as though you were pushing the key through the floor....

3. Is there a change in sound?

4. Does the hammer come back up and touch the strings? (during stage 2)

worth a bash....

[Otto]

Sorry Sir !!! (stands to attention and salutes the colonel respectfully)

I've never had it regulated in the time it's been with me (8 years), and 2 different techs on several occasions say it doesn't need it yet - one of them maintains the two BBC model Ds in St. George's Brandon Hill, Bristol (same as mine). Last time he was here I was more concerned about the dampers - which he's nearly sorted - and didn't mention the 'deadness'. He didn't pick that up while tuning it, but then as I said I don't suppose he was necessarily listening for it and it's not terribly obvious unless you have nothing better to do than tinkle on the Joanna all day.


As for your test (which I thought I'd already answered TBH):
Step 1 done (both very gently & very hard)
Step 2 hammer drops right down after hard bash (18mm from string ?) & stays up after gentle bash (7mm?)
Step 2 extra push - hammers move back up about 1-2mm, max.
Step 3 No changes in sound
Step 4 Hammer only ever hits the strings on initial playing of the note. I cannot get it to touch the strings any other way.

Vernon,

As you're the second person with the spillage theory, I might be tempted to clean the strings in question with IPA (iso-propyl alcohol) as that doesn't leave a residue and evaporates as soon as look at it. I can use a cotton bud to go under the dampers. The notes in question are all adjacent to the first bracing bar on the frame (2 in the top section, four or five in the next)

My days of doing 'drastic' things to pianos are long since gone.I used to slide the action out on my old Bechstein and fiddle with anything that was sticking (often with graphite powder), but wouldn't dream of doing that these days. Opening and closing the fall board is a major operation these days ! (ditto lid)

With a piano like mine, I rely on techs who know what they're doing (hopefully) and whom I can hold responsible if something goes pear-shaped.

[Colin Nicholson]

Cheers for that.... and the days of taking your hat off, saluting and rolling out the red carpet are long gone!!

Sounds like a stringing issue.... you seem to have a good selection of tech guys & a good head on your shoulders, so we wish you luck it doesn't turn out to be a major thing. Sometimes even a good tuner might ''turn a blind eye'' if the problem is not that obvious - and various processes of elimination can be a right pain.... as the bill is totted up!

Keep us informed

Colin

[Otto]

Oooooooooooooooohhhhhhhh !!!!! Well that was very interesting ....

I've cleaned the strings up a bit with IPA - well the bits you can see, as the damper covers probably half the strings' length and it sounded a smidgen better.

Then I played the note to lift the damper and ferreted around with a cotton bud and hey presto the sound has returned with bell-like clarity. I've checked with the guy that restrung / revamped it 15 years ago, and he's about 99% certain that he didn't do anything with the dampers, other than store them safely while he did the restringing and other bits and bobs. So along with the soundboard, wrest plank, pins, rim etc. the dampers go back getting on for 30 years when the beastie left the factory.

He suggested that the underside of the felts might be starting to get 'woolly' and that if I got a really wet cotton bud and made the interface where the string meets the dampers quite wet, I could then gently push the damper onto the string and wait while the IPA evaporates so it takes the correct shape. I've tried that on a couple of strings and I'm not sure it's made any more difference, to be honest.

What I am sure about is that the problem is definitely linked to the dampers, not the strings per se at the moment. So that's trouble in the treble and earlier trouble in the mid and bass ranges - all down to dampers.

I've just had a chat with Steinways in London, and they reckon that it's about time for the dampers to start giving trouble, and interestingly suggest that the top two sections be restrung at the same time (that's the top 35 notes) - and they suggested that off the top of their heads unprompted! (I believe it's one of the things Jeff Shackle goes on and on about too - he allegedly restrings those sections on any model D as a matter of course before selling it).

So, it's obviously problem solved time, folks and thanks for all your suggestions. Damper felts are £125 for a set and fitting time is 1.5 days, allegedly - say another £300-£450 ?

Wouldn't it be cheaper to learn the ophicleide instead ? There MUST be a world shortage of ophicleide players...

[Colin Nicholson]

You shouldn't need to buy a complete set of damper heads & felt.... its much cheaper & easier to just replace the existing wedge/clip/split/ flat or stitched felt & backing felt using a damper felt guillotine. Also, there was a similar post not so long ago - this chap bought ''oversized'' damper heads - and they wouldn't fit! I would always try to use the original wooden parts (and the various bends & kinks in the damper wires will be unique to your piano) ......

Well done anyway sorting out the problem.

If you just go for the felt replacement - I reckon your bill will be nearly halved!

[Johnkie]

I not sure how your problem can be linked to damper issues, if the dampers damp nicely (not ringing on). You said that you had a few dampers that were a bit sluggish, and I was under the impression that that's been sorted out. So are the dampers working correctly or not? Are they lifting approximately 1/2 way through the hammer's travel ? if so then they can't possibly have anything to do with affecting the quality of tone.

You also said that after cleaning the strings under the damper felt it returned the note to its bell like sound ... I might have picked you up wrong on this, and forgive me if so, but from what you describe it still sounds like something might be clogging the string up under the dampers ... they may have been cleaned on the top parts where it is easy to see, but liquid will dry out under the strings where you don't normally see.

[Barrie Heaton]

Oooooooooooooooohhhhhhhh

So, it's obviously problem solved time, folks and thanks for all your suggestions. Damper felts are £125 for a set and fitting time is 1.5 days, allegedly - say another £300-£450 ?

Wouldn't it be cheaper to learn the ophicleide instead ? There MUST be a world shortage of ophicleide players...

Dampers compact on grands over time and if you have wet them then yes it will give you that zing as they dry crusty. Newish Grands can get this zing if the damper slap rail is allowed to rise so the damper thump down compacting the felt, after a wile you get a Zing when the damper head comes into play

You can use 1500g paper on the damper felt to give it a new face or change the felt

Barrie

[Johnkie]

I'm getting quite confused here ! I was under the impression that the problem is where notes sound rather dead, not the quailty of damping as in zinging where the damper felt has hardened. What exactly was cleaned with the solution soaked cotton buds .... the damper felt or the strings ? confused.com

[Otto]

The price I was quoted was just for the 88 felts from Steinway, and their estimate was of 1.5 days to remove all the old felts from the wooden heads and replace with those supplied, I assumed was reasonable,if a bit generous.

The problem with having one is that everyone thinks you must be loaded and you get quoted Rolls-Royce prices Whether it's a Rolls-Royce job ...

Johnkie

Sorry if I'm jumping about a bit with the old logic. I was getting inaccurate damping from some of the dampers where the fundamental got damped more quickly than the harmonics when the dampers were lowered very slowly. My tech. found that the strings had left marks (rust-looking) on the damper felt. By cleaning the strings and the damper in some fluid (meths, IPA?) he cured that problem. The dampers have never been so bad as to allow them to ring on when fully down. This all happened in the mid and bass ranges to about 3 or 4 notes - including G# below middle C which drove me absolutely nuts as it seems to occur in EVERY piece of music ever written !

Going on to today's shenanigans, what I have managed to prove is that the damper is interfering with the string while the damper is in the 'raised' position. It could be fuzzy felt which is just lying on top of one or more of its trichord - it could be stuck to the string by congealed coffee or something. I still don't know what is actually going on, but by shoving a cotton bud with IPA on it, I've managed to move the 'obstruction' for the moment. After 40 years as a practising design engineer, I'm only too well aware that whatever it is that's causing the problem, it's going to be back pretty soon if I don't do something about it.

Steinway say the life of damper felt on one of their concert grands is typically 30 years, and as mine is 27, I might as well seriously consider doing something about it, since I've now pretty much proved in two different ways that the dampers aren't doing the job they used to. If I go for new damper felts throughout, then that'll give me the opportunity to look at the condition of all the strings, and at least we can clean them where the felts operate, and that should keep me going for another 5 years or so, even if replacing the strings might be thought to be advisable.

In any event, I shall probably have the beastie restrung and re-regulated when I move.

I've played some pretty sad pianos that have gently decayed from their original glory because no-one thought to maintain them. I tripped over a Chickering (a mere 9' 6" of it) is in a Friend's Meeting House (IIRC) in Boston, Mass., and that's had money spent on it on a regular basis ever since it was born in around 1935. It is simply the most wonderful piano I've ever played.

[Otto]

Folks, I used the word 'wet' in the sense that it was liquid. The fluid in question was IPA (CH3CHOHCH3 if you want to be technical ), which evaporates in just a few seconds, theoretically leaving no residues behind. While it's wet you hope to transfer some crud that's temporarily dissolved onto it, back onto the cotton bud.

There was no water involved at any stage - honest ! So where that leaves you vis-a-vis zingings, I have no idea whatsoever !

[Johnkie]

Cheers Otto .... I'm not so confused.com now

[Otto]

I had my friendly tuner along from Bath last Wednesday, and we took out the action, removed the top eight or so dampers and then cleaned the strings from both below and above using the aforementioned IPA (just got a new litre can from Maplins).

We didn't resort to anything more abrasive than a cotton wool pad, so it should have been just the crud we removed. You could see that we'd got some, but it's hard to tell dust from crud on the pad. Anyway, there was an immediate improvement on the quality of the sound from those strings (much more bell-like), and they continued to improve for the next 48 hours or so. It's now nearly very good indeed.

The damper felts looked to be in near perfect condition, except that they have never sat as designed on the strings ever since the day they left the Steinway factory ! The wooden damper head has two felts on it, one nearest the capo bar / agraffe and the other the bridge end (obviously). All the dampers are canted so that the end nearest the capo bar are heavily used while the bridge end felts are barely compressed.

Does anyone know if that's a necessary fudge on all of their grands to make the damping progressive, discovered through years of experience, or is it just "can't-be-bothered" to do it properly in the factory ?

[vernon]

"can't be bothered" springs to mind.
Seating dampers nicely is time consuming and needs a mirror resting on the strings behind so you see if they are tipped forward.
Standard practice.

[Colin Nicholson]

A few years ago, In Acton, London, I watched a Steinway tech guy weighing new dampers down & embedding them on the strings with heavy small bean bags - and a mirror was there behind.... but I didnt see the regulation or fine adjustments later. However, Kawai were very fussy - little special gauges & handmade wooden jigs for damper lift/ front & back movement etc.... much more thorough. I was also surprised by one of the 'How Its Made' programs.... making a Steinway Grand.... and the QC bloke at the end couldnt even play the piano!!!

[dancarney]

A few years ago, In Acton, London, I watched a Steinway tech guy weighing new dampers down & embedding them on the strings with heavy small bean bags - and a mirror was there behind.... but I didnt see the regulation or fine adjustments later. However, Kawai were very fussy - little special gauges & handmade wooden jigs for damper lift/ front & back movement etc.... much more thorough. I was also surprised by one of the 'How Its Made' programs.... making a Steinway Grand.... and the QC bloke at the end couldnt even play the piano!!!

I think you're talking about Wally Boot, the final voicer/inspector.

[Johnkie]

Otto:

Glad to hear that you have noticed improvement since cleaning the strings as recommended .... it's surprising what a huge difference some foreign matter on a string can make, and all to often it turns out to be somewhere that isn't easily spotted.

As far as good damper regulation goes .... It is a time consuming part of regulation and sadly not often paid enough attention to, even on expensive new instruments ! Dampers should always sit evenly on strings, both front and back, and side to side (extremely important with bass dampers) - If not they will lift skewed .... the back or front sections lifting first and even unwanted side to side movement which tends to be more pronounced especially in the bass.

A well regulated set of dampers should all start to lift at exactly the same time, as if they were one.... no individual dampers lifting earlier or later than others, and each lifting perfectly straight without the slightest sign of back to front or sideways movement.

Seeing how good damper regulation is, can only be done by operating the damper lift using tiny movements of the pedal where the dampers ****Just**** begin to move .... if this isn't done, then the dampers will move too fast and too much, making if difficult to see the quality of damper regulation.

[Barrie Heaton]

A few years ago, In Acton, London, I watched a Steinway tech guy weighing new dampers down & embedding them on the strings with heavy small bean bags - and a mirror was there behind....

Been using ball-baring bags for years now, have now got the spurlock grand damper tool which is very good (That uses been bag as well to weight down the dampers) But not sure ball-baring bags would work with Kawai grands as you say they want them lifting a particular way.

Barrie

[vernon]

Of course,it's critical that the damper bushings are 100% otherwise the dampers will wave about in all directions like the driven corn and be un-regulateable( or some similar word)

[Otto]

Well, problem solved.

I invested in 2 days of ex-Steinway technician Anthony Cooke's time and with the aid of a soldering iron, a 3mm drill and a good deal of knowledge, we're back to a fully working model D ready for the concert platform.

The strings were never a problem, and what had happened was that when the hammers were replaced the strike point was rather approximate, particularly in the critical 5th / 6th octave. As the heads became progressively flatter and flatter with use, so the mis-positioning of the hammers became ever more problematic, and the hammer was effectively both striking and briefly damping the string. Hence the 'thunky' sound.

Once the hammers had been reshaped and the grooves filed away we were back to a properly shaped hammer with a more precise strike point. By moving the action in and out we found the 'sweet spot' where the string naturally needed to be struck and then cracked the head off and re-glued it in the new position. In all there were about 8-10 heads that were addressed thus. Bye bye thunkiness.

He adjusted all moving parts, including the complete pedal mechanism from pedal to keybed, and discovered that the original NY action (complete with rattly PTFE bushes) had been long since binned. This has been replaced by a new Hamburg action. The last vestige of the NY mechanism was the sostenuto bar which clacked and rattled like a penny farthing, and we chased this down to a broken braize on the mechanism. I got two of my trusty soldering irons out and that just about managed to provide enough heat to soft solder it all back together again.

Everything was quite a long way out and he spent most of yesterday regulating the action too. Following instructions, I beat 9 bells out of it last evening to flatten the wispy bits on the hammers after their shaping and today after a bit of tuning and a bit more head moving, he pricked out the brighter heads to achieve evenness throughout. (The 3mm drill was to de-crud the front key-guard's dowel holes).

An excellent job, and I think it's probably as good now as it's ever been, bearing in mind that that 'new' sound will never be achievable again.

Just got to start saving for a repeat performance sometime in the future ...

[Colin Nicholson]

Nice 1 Otto, sounds a good job done.

I've just returned from a holiday to Oz - the friends I stayed with have a 9ft 2 Bosendorfer concert grand (92 key) .... amazing sound! However, bit like your problem, some of the top hammers & mech felt very weak, very soft in sound and no real punch. It took 2 of us to lift this whopping action out!!.... and although it has Renner hammers - good - they were almost too peak-shaped and had developed some kind of felt "scar" on the top.... so I refaced the lot, re-set the set-off, tensioned the rep springs (screw adjustment on these).... and it plays wonderfully now.

[Otto]

Hi Colin,

Many years ago I was surfing the internet and came across an antipodean by the name of Ron Overs, who seems to be a bit of an iconoclast when it comes to bowing and scraping at the Steinway altar. In 2004 we had a natter about hammers, and he informs me that all Hamburg 'D's have lightly doped Renner hammers, and that all the NY 'A's, 'B's & 'D's have too, but more so, as they have less dense felt. I shouldn't be at all surprised if Bösendorfer doped their Imperial monsters, and wonder if the peak-shaped hammers indicated several re-shapings that have hidden the tell-tale signs of doping - hence your felt 'scars'.

You might be interested to read a little more of what Ron had to say ...

I'd suggest having a close look at the condition of the soundboard. Steinway sound boards are compression crowned and they have a reputation (as least from my perspective) of failing. One of the Australian Broadcasting Corporation Ds (a circ. 1986 at the ABC Ultimo Center) which I look after has been redone twice by us (1983 and 1987). But the board is on the way out, and will require a new board if it is rebuilt again. Apart from the deteriorating tone, it has compression ridges all over the panel. Steinway claim that compression ridges don't matter, but it is a sign of a sound board panel failing.

I'm currently building a new board, with our rib-crowned laminated sound board panel and I-ribs, for the 1962 Wangaratta Steinway D (I wasn't planning to build our new technology into their D, but when their house technician heard our no. 4 which was in the factory when he visited to inspect the D, he asked if I would incorporate my design into the D). The original board had failed in the second top string section (which is the most overloaded section of the board) to such a degree that it had reverse crown between the bridge and the belly rail.

You can detect failed boards in the tone once you know what to listen for. The tonal characteristic changes to a short-shocky tone, with considerable initial intensity when the note is struck (this is due to the soundboard impedance reducing as the board loses its stiffness). It eventually sounds more like a duck quacking than a piano, since the sustain is very short. Many technicians claim that these problems can be solved by voicing or changing the hammers. It will help a little but it won't fix an underlying soundboard problem.

One of the reasons why Steinway boards fail is that the soundboard is too wide adjacent to the middle of the long bridge. The ribs and panel CC structure is simply incapable of holding up against the down bearing forces. The board recedes, the bridge rolls anticlockwise towards the bass corner and rest is history.

I'm just off to check the soundboard's condition ...

[NewAge]

A very interesting thread.
Could someone advise me if S&S pianos found in Australia would generally be of Hamburg or NY origin.
Does the OZ climate tend to be a factor in the soundboard related problems as indicated?

[Otto]

A very interesting thread.
Could someone advise me if S&S pianos found in Australia would generally be of Hamburg or NY origin.
Does the OZ climate tend to be a factor in the soundboard related problems as indicated?

I lived in NZ for a couple of years ('89-'91), and the decent piano availability was dire, verging on the non-existant. Those who wanted a good piano tended to choose one while on a trip to Europe / GB / US and then had it shipped out. There seem to be endless numbers of people shipping everything you can think of - including Zodiac inflatables for instance.

My more recent 9 week trip to Oz in '03 did include the odd foray into music emporia, but a similar dirth of decent grands seemed to apply outside of the institutions and venues, and they seem far keener on getting the last vestige of life out of their pianos than we do. Transporting pianos across the tropics by ship can upset them as they can get to temperatures in the 40's C inside their containers, and it's wrecked many a piece of antique furniture, but then a new NY piano ought to be able to cope with those sorts of temperatures.

With my engineer's hat on I can see that a steamy heat might be instrumental in getting the wood to collapse at the individual grain level under the stresses, but Sydney didn't seem that hot to me in Nov / Dec. For the record, I cannot find any deformation of my soundboard when I crawled underneath it (it's about 6mm thick ?).

Aside from Ron Overs, there's Stuart and Sons who make very delicious and expensive pianos (unfortunately with crappy music stands - why ??? ).