1930s Bluthner Upright

[latelemon]

I was wondering if anyone with knowledge and experience of an old Bluthner upright could say something about its action and touch? I have already tried a freshly restored 1929 Model A and found it to be like playing a piano whose keys were made of stone. I will be trying another restored (1932) Model A this weekend and am hoping it is not so leaden and dead, as I have pretty much fallen for the Bluthner tone. But if the 1929 example is representative of how they were designed, then I'll probably be looking elsewhere pretty quickly. If anyone knowledgable about old Bluthners (or perhaps 1930s uprights in general) were able to offer some comment, I would very much appreciate it.

[Barrie Heaton]

I was wondering if anyone with knowledge and experience of an old Bluthner upright could say something about its action and touch? I have already tried a freshly restored 1929 Model A and found it to be like playing a piano whose keys were made of stone. I will be trying another restored (1932) Model A this weekend and am hoping it is not so leaden and dead, as I have pretty much fallen for the Bluthner tone. But if the 1929 example is representative of how they were designed, then I'll probably be looking elsewhere pretty quickly. If anyone knowledgable about old Bluthners (or perhaps 1930s uprights in general) were able to offer some comment, I would very much appreciate it.

Bluthner actions are very responsive even the over-damper ones - its more like the regulating or too heavy an hammer if they have been replaced.

Barrie

[latelemon]

Thanks Barrie.

The example I played had an all new action (including hammers) and the dealer said he had had it regulated the week before. But it felt awful. Shallow key depth, heavy touch all the way down, no 'springiness' in the return, no discernible difference in weight with the sustain pedal depressed, and it had serious repetition problems. It was one of the best sounding pianos in the showroom, but it felt a lot worse than the new entry level pianos half the price that were surrounding it. Very odd.

Anyway, I'll take your word that a properly restored Bluthner should feel lively and responsive when I try out the other available restored model in a few days. I am not, however, too optimistic, and wonder if there is a difference between 1930s upright action design and that of today's pianos that might account for such a sharp difference?

[Colin Nicholson]

As Barrie pointed out, we reckon the mechanism has not been regulated properly. If an old piano, this can take a full day to rectify - regardless of the makers name. I would take what some dealers say with a ''pinch of salt'' - and I also suspect the hammers have not been toned?

A quick check will reveal everything in 2 secs!
Shallow depth may imply renewed front rail washers, but not properly regulated.

[latelemon]

Thanks Colin (again!): you have given me some hope.

The two pianos are virtually identical (a 1929 and 1932 restored Bluthner Model A) but have been handled differently. The one I trialled last weekend was bought by the dealer and then shipped out to SAP Renovations in Poland for a thorough (and by all accounts, expensive) restoration. I was able to play it with the top panel and fall board removed and could see that all of the action was new: new springs, new dampers (felt and barrels). The dealer knew I was interested in it and that I would be coming back to give it a good run through, so he told me he would ensure it was regulated before I came to play it. Despite that, it was awful to play, and if he didn't arrange for a decent regulation then he was foolish: to my knowledge I was the only one to express an interest in the piano for a year or more.

The other, which I will be trialling this weekend, has been bought and restored 'in-house' by a restoration workshop. It has had a less thorough restoration in that the original damper barrels, hammer shafts and springs (hammer, jack, dampers) remain, but I am told it has had an intensive regulation. So it will be interesting to see which of the two measures up better. Are either you or Barrie willing to hazard a guess as to which is likely to play better? I would like to think that the 'in-house' workmanship, even if less thorough and more economical, might produce a better result, but I may be mistaken in my assumptions.

By the way what tests would you use to check the state of the regulation?? You mentioned it could be done quickly, but to my eye everything appeared to be in order, yet the piano was borderline unplayable: it was a real case of "proof of the pudding" and try as I might to like the piano, and though I tried to persuade myself that perhaps this is what 1930s upright actions are like (as opposed to a contemporary Renner action), I just couldn't escape the conclusion that the piano was not for me. Perhaps for someone who wants some vintage brand-name furniture that will occasionally be used, but it honestly did not strike me as a serious instrument for everyday use. But then again, perhaps this is the nature of any restored piano: fine to look at, but not for serious use as an instrument. Or am I being too hard on old pianos and restorers?

[Colin Nicholson]

We are unable to give long lists of regulation processes & stats/ checklists etc to simply cover up for a retailers errors. Much of this info is classified within the trade and can't be discussed in detail on this forum - just general info/ help/ advice.

However, make sure when you play any note, the hammer just strikes the string ONCE, then rebounds and is held in position away from the string. If the hammer rebounds several times/ has no control/ ''bubbles'' against the string a few times, then the action & keyboard has not been regulated properly.

What I would suggest is that you check to see if the retailer is a tuner & technician first - ask him (her) - don't be afraid. Many retailers have to book in a tuner to do the finest regulation work. To the untrained eye, yes, everything will look fine to you, but to us, even if I spot there is lost motion, shallow depth of touch, hammers not checking correctly etc.. we can't just start adjusting it in a shop!!! .... this is highly specialised work and requires special regulating tools aswell.... completely different to tuning. Also check their website.... some retailers dont offer tuning/ restoration.

IF the retailer says it has been regulated, and you think not, then do this..

Firstly ask your retailer casually ''what is the measurement for the key dip" ??.... for Bluthners, the answer is around 10mm - 10.5mm (some times 11mm, but no less than 10mm) - and see what they say. DONT tell them the answer! If they can't give an answer, or ask you to explain further, or give ther wrong answer, then I suggest you book a tuner to check it over with you - then maybe discuss regulation costs after purchase, and see if the retailer will knock off the difference? Make sure also you PAY your technician to check it over thoroughly aswell - tuning/ wrest pin torque/ general alignment of parts/ damper lift/ hammer blow/ set-off/ back checks etc etc....

A retailer may argue the toss with you (some are genuine), and because you are on their 'turf' - they may not bow down/ admit and accept that they know little about regulation. Once the hammer blow & key dip is sorted properly - the rest is plain sailing (for a tech guy - not for you!) - but it takes quite a long time to fully regulate.

Hope that helps

[Barrie Heaton]

The two pianos are virtually identical (a 1929 and 1932 restored Bluthner Model A) but have been handled differently. The one I trialled last weekend was bought by the dealer and then shipped out to SAP Renovations in Poland for a thorough (and by all accounts, expensive) restoration. I was able to play it with the top panel and fall board removed and could see that all of the action was new: new springs, new dampers (felt and barrels).

Wile the workshops are good at some things in Poland, regulating is generally not one of them. Also, if they have fitted a compete new action this will depend on how good their home work was when ordering the action and if it was set up badly this will be good fun to put right

Barrie

[latelemon]

Colin, Barrie: Many thanks for your responses.

Colin: Yes, I like the key-dip test. The Bluthner I tried was well short of 10mm (to judge by feel) and had I the presence of mind to measure the touch weight I'm sure it would have been close to 100g. I'm hopeful the second one I see will be properly regulated, but it is good to hear that a classic Bluthner did have a good key depth and a responsive touch, despite being a 1930s product.

Barrie: There were other problems with the restoration that even I was able to identify. The serial number had been sprayed over when doing the frame and the cabinet had been finished in high gloss polyester rather than French polished as I understand would have been the original. Besides giving the piano too much shine for my liking, the glaze also subdued the name on the fallboard/key cover, rather than emphasizing it. To my mind this suggests a somewhat casual attitude that doesn't instill confidence that the new action had been properly selected, much less regulated. Let's hope the second "in house" restoration fares better!

With thanks and appreciation,

LL.

[athomik]

Not strictly acoustic piano, but Coldplays's pianos (I've 3 dodgy - groovy - ones at the moment) which aren't real, but have done some good service for a few years - I've seen them before - and happen to be Yamaha GT20s, are in fairly good shape (they seem to own loads of them). Only the oldest of them (quite an early one) needs parts - it got wet. A bit of calibration, removing a fair amount of debris and they're off again. The only slightly disconcerting thing is the paint scheme - I'll post a couple of pics when I get them sorted. At least one or two could do with a bit of regulating- bushings & etc.

[latelemon]

Note to Colin and Barrie:

Again thanks for all the advice above. As it happens, I tried the second restored Bluthner this weekend and it played wonderfully. It had a lighter touch than I expected (and much more than the other "clunker") yet was hugely responsive, lively and easy to control. The softest tones could be squeezed out of it with little effort, and the sound was wonderfully warm, rich and resonant in the bass while sweet and clear in the treble, and superbly balanced between the two. Overall, it proved to be by far the best of the pianos on my shortlist and so I will be taking delivery in a few weeks.

The contrast between the two restored Bluthner's was immense, and at the very least I guess it shows just how important good regulation is to a piano, especially a restored one. In the case of the good restored Bluthner, the rebuilder told me he had assigned four days to regulating it, and from what I can see it was time well spent.

Finally, the more I have played, inspected, researched, and learnt about pianos, the more respect and admiration I have acquired for builders, restorers, tuners and technicians. So at the end of the day, I was also glad that in choosing this good restored Bluthner I was also supporting a small dedicated rebuilding shop rather than a large furniture trader or expensive showroom dealer. So, a good experience all round!

LL

PS I've attached a photo of the Bluthner in question. Not only does it seem a superb piano to play, but it's a handsome one too!

Bluthner Model A

[Gill the Piano]

It's the same as my piano! I looked around half-heartedly at new pianos a couple of years ago but couldn't find anything in my price range I really liked so got mine rebuilt, and I'm really happy with it.And hope you are too!

[latelemon]

It's the same as my piano! I looked around half-heartedly at new pianos a couple of years ago but couldn't find anything in my price range I really liked so got mine rebuilt, and I'm really happy with it.And hope you are too!

I've a few weeks to wait before delivery, but yes I'm very pleased! Like yourself, I spent quite a while trying to identify new pianos that I liked enough to justify the 5-7k budget I was working with, but most left me indifferent. A small few (a Petrof 125, a Seiler 116, and a Steinberg IQ24) caught my attention but each had different "faults" that made me balk at proceeding with them. And after my first Bluthner A encounter (wonderful sound, awful touch) I was having serious second thoughts about the rebuilt option too! So, I was very pleased to find the good rebuilt Bluthner and was delighted to find that it ticked off pretty much everything on my "want list", even my fussiness over pedals!

Maybe we need to establish the online Rebuilt Bluthner A Club?