Age of your upright piano?

[Colin Nicholson]

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[Bill Kibby]

This message was much too negative, and just because you can't date a piano doesn't mean I can't, I have been doing this for years before you joined the forum, and serial numbers are not the only answer. A good half of those images are inaccurate or misleading anyway.

[Colin Nicholson]

Bill, this was in no way aimed at you or anyone's elses 'alleged' inability to date pianos; I didn't realise that you owned this history page - it was purely to assist anyone to view at a glance the APPROXIMATE age of a piano ''if all else fails''. Yes, I am aware of other methods such as numbers behind the mechanism etc., and we all know that you have been on this forum for a lifetime, and guard it with your life.

The images were taken from what I thought was a reliable source - a London piano auction guide price book.... perhaps they need to be informed if the images are misleading.
However I will remove it tomorrow if it is misleading, and sorry for interfering with your forum.

[Johnkie]

I wouldn't bother Colin - You have just as much right to post on this forum as anyone else. Bill does tend to be a little on the grumpy side at times which to my mind is a great shame

A PM to the original poster would have been much better, rather than having a go at you for merely trying to help.

[Bill Kibby]

I am sorry you perceive it as a grumpy message, I make no apology for the fact that it is certainly pedantic. I have asked several people's opinions about the original message. They read it as " stop bothering us, we can't date your piano". That is not a message I want the public to read, and since it is out there in public view, it requires public reply. Anyone has the right to put information here, but if they talk rubbish, we have a duty to correct it, in order not to mislead our hundreds or thousands of future readers of the item. In addition to the failure to tell people that there are other ways to date pianos, and there are a number of other people on this forum who are often very helpful, Colin decided to take a picture from a website that is not even a piano source, and put it up on what is probably the best piano history forum in the world, without bothering to check its accuracy. The first, obvious picture of a Zumpe- style square piano is good. The next picture could as easily be 1780s as 1800s. Where are the other important square piano features? The late 1800s could as easily be 1850s. The so-called 1860s Giraffe is not a Giraffe Piano, and is not 1860s, it is a Pyramid piano, more like 1820s. The cottage piano is fine. The 1900 one implies that columns were in regular use by 1900, this is no more correct than the suggestion that pianos were all overstrung by 1900. The pre-1914 one ignores the importance of trusses, and offers some kind of unrepresentative curved columns, which did not end at 1914. I wonder at what age does "wise" suddenly become known as "grumpy"?

[Colin Nicholson]

The post has been removed from YOUR history forum.

The pictures nor the whole template was taken from any website, but in fact taken from the Phillips Auctioneers & Valuers piano prices book (which I did on Photoshop).... written and edited by Richard Reason - which I believe is a well-respected book sold by many piano parts & accessory companies. It also clearly states in their diagrams that this is a ''ROUGH'' guide at the header, and that some attempt has been made to give a basic description of the styles of pianos through the ages - with no particular emphasis on a period, or cut-off dates. This was purely added as a gesture of good will to those who were not able to (or maybe couldn't tackle) adding and attaching photos to their post - so offering an alternative guide instead. The chart was not really meant to show every possible kind of piano (with or without trusses!!!! .... [need to get out more!]) .... and nor was it intended to be of pin-point accuracy to the exact decade. In fact many pianos we see here on this forum are well past their sell-buy-date & good condition, and does it really matter if the age is slightly out?

I have in fact seen a ''Giraffe' piano, similar to this in a museum. The date according to the book is 'suggested'' (there's that word again!) - around 1860. I also believe that pianos of this period had other bizarre features, and of the course the tall cabinet at the Bronte Museum in Howarth - which I heard being played last year is of a similar nature having a large glass panel at the front. However, who really needs to argue the toss over a few years?

You yourself Bill on many occasions say that many pianos cannot be dated by the serial number method alone, (naturally, this is correct) and that you specifically choose words such as ''it seems to be'' or ''the date suggests'' .... or ''this is probably'' ...... etc etc and that you will ''do your research'' ,,,, but there is never anything definite as a result - this conversation has cropped up before. Although you say that this chart was inaccurate and misleading.... can you therefore tell me how accurate and non-misleading your quoted comments are above??.... and how many have you fulfilled to giving the member accurate and not misleading or suggestive/ guess-work comments?

To your eyes, some of these pianos may be inaccurately described to the exact decade - but that was not really the idea of the whole thing. I also found your comment quite offensive regarding ''stop bothering us, we can't date your piano'' ..... EH? .... who has said this? That was not the intention of the post at all - and I hope that my previous attempts to provide useful information such as downloading images has been helpful.... but then again, this rather dramatic reply is always inevitable just so you get your name & power onto the post. I have just recently added my name to the piano accompaniment page - I spotted the odd grammar error (who cares) - but the page looks good and professional despite that.... would it then be appropriate for me to add a comment at the bottom? Somethings are best left unsaid.... it leaves a bitter taste, and spoils the general interest of this forum.

Anyway - I will of course be passing this post onto Richard Reason - he can them sum up your irrational comments.

[Colin Nicholson]

Just to add another comment (if that's Ok?)....

If the majority of the pianos that were being enquired about here were of exquisite beauty, full of history and provenance etc.... I would willingly hold my hands up, and not even attempt to intervene or share some kind of overview chart.... however, with respect, some of the pianos that are shown on this forum look as though they have been dragged out of the local skip! .... with or without trusses, with or without square column legs or bowed legs.... or whatever. I am also reasonably sure that if anyone wanted a ''spot-on'' valuation/ date/ history put on their auction/private -bought piano, they would pay someone to assess it properly, like you would survey a house before purchase. However, my 'FREE' chart was purely to offer a general overview only - just like the Phillips auction book - nothing else, and some useful images to give someone a general age of their piano. I also found some of the images and comments slightly misleading in the book, and took the time to re-arrange them slightly. I agree, its not perfect, and its not meant to be.... the member could quite easily pay over £20 for a book with all the right detailed information in it.... but here, its free.

I hope that this clarifies things & let's chill.

[NewAge]

As a frequent visitor to the forum, for what it's worth, I found Colin's initial post a very helpful general 'guide' for new visitors. Just that, a cheap and cheerful guide - no more, no less!