1906 Bechstein Model 8

[latelemon]

I have a quick question regarding that old chestnut of the "value"/"price" of a piano, in this case a 1906 Bechstein Model 8 I will be viewing in the next couple of days. Here is what I know:

1. The piano belonged to a local Church when it was bought (probably for a song) by the current owner, around 12 years ago. It was then dispatched to a well-known local restorer for a rebuild that involved a new wrest plank and strings. (I'm awaiting information on soundboard, hammers, action, keys, cabinetry.)

2. The piano is for sale privately, prompted by a house move and the owner inheriting another Bechstein that he prefers to keep.

My question: to the nearest £500, what would you say is a "sensible" price to pay for such a piano? When I have viewed it, and played it, I will have more information, and if I like what I see and hear, I intend to call out a tech to have a closer look. But I wanted to have a sense before my visit as to what kind of figure I should have in mind should the issue of price arise on the first visit. I am aware than an "institutional history" (i.e. in a Church) may not be the best thing in the world, but am hopeful that the restorers may have nullified that and that over the course of the past ten years or so, the restoration has held.

With thanks in anticipation for any thoughts, comments, opinions.

LL

[Colin Nicholson]

Hi Latelemon

Thanks for your enquiry. Firstly, we are unable to give you any ''prices'' or ''what it's worth'' as such on this forum in terms of the private piano you are about to visit, and 'Private' selling tends to be a separate selling 'bracket' than selling either through the trade, or at auction. Also the price very much depends on the condition of the piano, the LEVEL and quality level of the restoration (which there are several grades), and of course the overall tone, timbre and stability of tuning.

I have a quick question .... (or 2)....

Have you any inclination of the price they are asking?.... what price are they advertising it for? How much did the restoration cost?

I think we need to know 'some' of that first, before I can offer ''full-on'' advice.

Now then.... I like your first line.... ''I have a quick question'' !.... but this can't be answered quickly - it needs quite some time to collect all the relevant information about the piano, and entering into prices for a 'blind' piano, unseen, unheard and untouched, its impossible to say. It also depends on if the piano is over-strung/ full iron frame/ fully protected wrest plank, or oblique strung/ full iron, partially protected wrest plank.... and if wrest pin bushings have been added for greater stability (during the restoration stages).

I agree with you that you need to bring along a piano tuner/technician - however, if you are purely bringing one along to give the 'yeh or neh' on the piano, that's fine - but they may not have had any experience in the wholesale/selling & buying side of pianos, so you need to check. Also, you should expect the tuner to come back to you after a few days to collect information/ auction prices/ restoration costs etc. so that their asking price is not too over the top. Many private sellers after having restoration done to a piano tend to ''stick on'' a premium added price, to cover some of the restoration costs they once had. However, most of this is the labour costs, and will not reflect on the original and 'forecourt' price 10 years later.

Here is a rough guide/ short list to some pianos for sale at a London auction recently similar to your dated piano, (prices dont show commission/ VAT nor explain the condition) - so presuming 'unrestored' unless stated >>>

1. Bechstein 1905 Model 8 burr walnut/ stool (2010) 1.5K - 2K

2. Bechstein c.1897 Rosewood 300 - 500

3. Bechstein .1896 Burr walnut with tapestry adjustable stool to match. Piano restored..
2K - 2.5K

4. Bechstein in mahogany 'Arts & Crafts' with ornamental brass strap hinges/ wooden columns & external scones 500 - 700

5. Bechstein c.1904 - Model 10 upright piano in rosewood. 500 - 700


Taking 'piano 3' above, thats about the right price for a Bechstein, having had some restoration - and I have seen one or 2 in a music shop, even unrestored at that price! - purely because shop floor prices need to cover overheads/ staff etc. It may have transpired that the piano cost well over 5 or 6K to be restored - but again, for an old piano over 100 years old, not many people would pay that.

Some Bechstein models are also over-rated. The model 10 - a very old design, has this unusual ''sticker'' action - and all the keys are attached and 'snap-on' fittings located to the mechanism.... a right piano for removal of the mechanism/ regulation/ repair work. Also, depending on the tone, (even if re-strung) - some Bechsteins have an inherant problem in their design when it comes to the stringing/ downbearing/ bridge contact for some strings, and they can give off unusual harmonics - making the piano difficult to tune perfectly - even after a re-string.
I suppose a re-strung Bechstein which is now 10 years old - its OK, but many pianos I have tuned after a restring, only tend to last about 10-15 years.... a re-string doesn't mean another 100 year's life for the piano - far from it.

OK.... hope that's helpful - so when you book your tuner, ask them if they do personal assessments/ valuations, based on the condition it is in. Also, make sure you see ALL invoices, including a breakdown sheet of the restoration ''workshop notes'' - showing all prices/ costs etc etc.... and if the piano is being asked around the price in No 3 piano above, .... you ought to be able to eat your dinner from it!

Just to let you know, I recently carried out a restoration just to a fallboard veneer from a Model 10 Bechstein.... full of cracks & damage. I restored it fine - re-French polished etc - and I charged about 300 for it...... however, that doesn't increase the value of the piano by 300 quid!!.... and restoration costs are mostly removed from the equation when it comes to ''real - face - value''

regards

Colin

[latelemon]

Hi Colin,

Many thanks for such a fantastically comprehensive, detailed and informative response! I feel like I should be posting you a cheque for your services!

I have obtained some photos of the piano, which can be viewed here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/80055622@N ... 7346754016

To my amateur eye, it looks like the restoration was a "partial" one, though I am still awaiting further information on what was done to/with the soundboard, action, and keys. In particular, judging from the photos, the following has me a little concerned:

1. Uneven gaps in the keys, suggesting wear.
2. Uneven alignment of hammers at rest, though not too severe.
3. Hammers 75, 79-85 different in colour to others, suggesting they are replacements and the others are originals.
4. Hammer 72 felt extremely compacted/shorn, suggesting something not right.
5. Poor hammer spacing between no 79 and 80 (and possibly others, though this can't be judged from the photos.)
6. Dampers look old, suggesting these weren't part of the "rebuild".

Overall, it looks like the rebuild was done on a budget, though I know that the piano was shipped some 200 miles to the restorers, which suggests that economy was not the priority.

The asking price is £1800 and there may be some room for manoeuvre, so I am still tempted to see it in the flesh and see how it plays and sounds. But your comments on tuning difficulties of old Bechstein's and particularly about the longevity of a restring have made me more cautious.

If you have any other comments prompted by the photos, I'd love to hear them. And when I get more information and/or have a chance to play the piano, I can report back with more detail.

With thanks,

L.

[latelemon]

Hi Colin,

I eventually saw the piano and it is a Model V (=10) from 1900. Straight strung with the odd action mechanism of the Model 10/V that you mentioned and absolutely dog rough throughout. The poor owner who paid for the restoration is now irate. Somebody told her a few years back that is was worth €7500 (= 6000GBP) whereas I suggested she would be lucky to get a €1000 for it. (She was asking €2250/1800GBP.) The irony was that she had another Model 10, from around 1906 that was totally untouched and in original condition and was a much better piano. (The two were side by side and I could compare.) She's not a happy camper and I'm back on the hunt again ...

Many thanks again for your sound advice.

LL

[joseph]

Hi!

What kind of piano are you after? Are you after an overstrung piano with a modern type action? You may be better off looking for something a lot newer.

Of course, if you are attracted to the sound of the old Bechstein uprights, then that is a different matter.

The fact is that there are many new pianos being built, of very good quality, and for not all that much more than the prices you were talking about.

I don't know what country you are in, but if you were in the UK I'd suggest looking at Welmars or Chappells or Broadwoods from the 1970s onwards, or Kembles from the 1990s onwards, or perhaps a new Wendle und Lung or Brodmann piano, or the Kawai K2.

A piano from 1906 will need extensive rebuilding to bring it in to optimal condition. Remember, that is 106 years ago!

[vernon]

Pleased be advised that most tuner/ technicians are well instructed in the quality/condition of a piano but if they are not in the retail part have no idea of " value" ie current sales prices.
Around here we have a tuner who tells all customers that their 1960s piano is "worth" £1000/
This causes mayhem to dealers who would offer around £300 and customers who are seeking the "value "of £1000
The value of any object is what you can realise in the open market.If I offer a customer £300 for a piano they are perfectly welcome to secure a better price elsewhere. That is what it is worth to me on that day. Tomorrow, I may have two similar offered that will attract an even lower offer from me.
It's what's called Capitalism. viz Adam Smith

[latelemon]

Thanks Joseph and Vernon.

Joseph: I was originally in the market for a new piano, but accidentally veered down the "vintage" route after having being impressed with a restored (but over-priced) Bluthner. I am probably going to revert back to the new piano market again as it would seem from my investigations that good quality restored "classics" are as rare as hens teeth where I am, viz. the Dublin-Belfast "corridor". I had a budget in mind to do further work on the Bechstein in question, but from what I saw today--besides it being a model I did not want--was that the piano may as well not have been restored and for me to bring it up to anything approaching quality I was looking at 2-3k on top of the purchase price and with a very uncertain outcome at the end.

Vernon: I am relying on your reflections being true. There are two nearly new pianos I like sitting on dealers floors at inflated prices and I have indicated I would be interested at significantly lower prices. The dealers are holding fast to "value". I'm relying on them coming round to "price", as there is very little movement of pianos here at the moment.

[Colin Nicholson]

Hi Latelemon

I couldnt find the photos on your Flickr ? .... just found some bloke sticking his tongue out to a dog!! (jack russell?).... it also said that 'nothing was created' ?

Yeh, it sounds like that not much was done to this piano, and depending on what the customer had to spend, (or how capable the technician was).... sometimes key bushing cloths/ ivories, damper felt, backing cloth & springs are usually ''last on the list'' . Hammers are probably original with their shanks, causing them to twist & warp slightly after 100 years.

Good luck in your search anyway.

[latelemon]

Thanks Colin. Your detailed advice has been very much appreciated.

LL