Kirkman Baby Grand - age?

[Elizabeth]

Hi, I have a Kirkman Baby Grand Piano (burr walnut) serial 13409, I am curious about its age and if they were considered to be a "good, bad or indifferent piano"! Many thanks

[Bill Kibby]

The term "Baby Grand" tends to imply something from the 1900s, whereas the published numbers for Kirkman would suggest that the number is from the early 1860s. Dating pianos by numbers is not as simple as some websites would lead you to believe, and Kirkmans of the 1900s do not conform to the published numbers. Also, most pianos have several numbers inside. If you could upload images here, or email them to me, I may be able to estimate its age, but most baby grands of the 1900s are so similar that it can be difficult.

The original Kirckmans were one of the first firms making pianos in London by 1777, and highly regarded, but more modern pianos bearing the name tend to be fairly average and, in most instances, condition and specification is more important than names.

At the Piano History Centre, we have two Kirkman cottage pianos, 1864 and 1874, and they will work quite well when restoration is complete, but tuning is perhaps another story!

[Colin Nicholson]

Elizabeth....

I tune a Kirkman upright piano once a year, usually just before Xmas. This is dated prior to 1900 - around 1896. Although the piano is very old, it still holds it pitch - albiet, about a semi-tone below concert pitch!! Very attractive casework - cottage piano style, and ivory keys still in good condition. It has a very ornate cast iron frame inside - and agraffes fitted for the strings (studs that the strings pass through small holes). However - there have been several string breakages - and believe you me, I always try to be very careful! .... it is straight-strung and under-damped.... sounding a bit 'tinny' in places. Back in those days, if I had tuned this in the early 1900's - I would have given it a 3-4 star rating, in terms of design, build & general spec. However - as we all get older, so do pianos - and they also deteriorate. Nowadays - even the pretty casework now doesn't exclude it from only being a 2 star to a possible 1 star rating. So, although we like to reflect on a piano 'name' - and use the past tense to give the piano some hope, in reality - nowadays, most grands & uprights of this period, and their condition will be a 'middle of the road' piece of furniture - rather than a purpose-built pianoforte, to keep up with performances of modern standards.

Hope that helps. (See some of the piano ratings on the 'How to upload an image' ,,, post at the top of this subject. Also instructions on how to upload your photos.

They ARE a name we have heard of, and briefly mentioned in the world of pianos - but in some cases, like the 'extras' I pointed out to you - this is a bit like sticking a BMW badge on an old Ford Escort!!

Bill puts it across more diplomatically than me!!!

[Elizabeth]

Hi Guys,

Thank you very much for your help, I discovered yesterday that it may be a midi-grand as it is bigger than a baby grand!

[Bill Kibby]

MIDI has a completely different meaning in this age of digital pianos. This is not small enough to be a baby grand, it is a "grand" or arguably a "boudoir grand", smaller than a full concert grand, but still pretty big. My estimate of its age is 1862, and the number suggests about 1863, so that seems close enough. When I tune Victorian grands like this, I mainly find them in old churches. The hexagonal legs are typical of huge numbers of London pianos of all types from the 1840s to the 1880s. The carved decoration above the hexagon is peculiar to the period around the 1860s.

[Gill the Piano]

I tune one in a house and it's remarkably good-tempered, stays in tune (although not near pitch) and is well-loved.