Erard Piano

[pamelac123]

We have an Erard baby grand with markings J I 3.77.

Someone has removed the ivory and the harp is cracked.

It's too nice to throw away, so what should I do?

What is the wood used? What metals were used for the harp?

Thank you, Pam

[Bill Kibby]

We can't tell you much just from the name, they were making pianos ever since 1777, so without photos I have no idea what sort of piano you have. Can you upload some photos here, or email them to me? In order to try to help, I need to know a little more. I should add that although I would love to have it for the Piano History Centre, we have no space left for a grand.

When you say baby grand, that suggests something under five feet, how long is it?

Where do the markings you mention appear?

Are there any other numbers inside?

"The harp" is not a piano term, do you mean the iron frame is cracked, or the wood?

[Colin Nicholson]

I've heard the word 'harp' cropped up a few times, and usually refers to the gold frame - as when stood up (like an upright piano), it resembles a harp. The gold frame is made from cast iron - hence that's why a piano weighs so much. Cracks can be repaired & welded, but its quite expensive, and involves removing all the strings, removal of the iron frame, then the gold is stripped off back to the metal & welded - then re-strung. Major restoration involved though, and may not be economical.

The ivories can easily be replaced with "ivory look-alike" synthetic grained key tops.
However if you decided to have the cast frame repaired/ re-stringing, then we also advise that the dampers are replaced, and the internal movement is refurbished - may not need a full restoration, but in some cases, depending on its condition and age - a full piano restoration could be considered.

There are many different types of wood used on pianos, not just "wood" - varying from spruce (soundboard), maple (wrest plank & bridges), timber frames, mahogany, walnut, oak etc.... and of course the veneer. Diagrams may help, but some of the wood on grand pianos you dont see, and is protected - such as the wrest plank, and other areas of wood (eg casework) is often stained to look more like an expensive wood... like an oak veneer made to look like walnut! However, I would assume Erard would use "natural colours"/ light staining & french polished (and French polish itself also stains wood, even without wood stain).

Would be helpful though to see some photos of the crack & the piano.
Depending on the damage, and extent of the crack - the piano tuning may be affected.... and some tuners may not tune this piano - could be dangerous. However, I have tuned an upright with a small crack, and it tuned fine. I would suggest you contact a local piano tuner/ restorer.

It could be likely that the previous owners were faced with the same problems, did some research, got a few quotes (prob well in excess of £8K).... then time to "get rid" - as they say. Piano bargains are there to be had, auctions, Ebay etc.... but they come at a price to be restored!! .... no matter how nice they look externally, or how reluctant you are to part with it. Buying "blind" can also be very risky.

I'm sure the piano is "restorable" - but if you have never been attached to it for long, not an heir loom etc.... think carefully about keeping it. One all important question we ask is.... what did you pay for it? and how much did it cost for removal?
If you got it next to nothing, could be an investment, and Erard is a good name.

Hope that helps....

[pamelac123]

Thanks for the replies.

It measures 33.5" at the short end, 54" at the keys and is 72" long. (US inches, the piano has traveled to San Antonio, TX.)

I've included several photos to help with identification and ideas about repairing the crack.

We paid $500 US 12 years ago.

Thanks for sharing your expertise. I'm looking forward to your information.

[pamelac123]

photos

[Bill Kibby]

Thanks. You say "the harp" is cracked, but your "photo of crack" shows a piece of exterior casework. I don't see the crack, but I presume it is a polishing job, and not the structure of the piano. Inside the top, perhaps at the left, there should be a serial number, and we need this to assess the age. Erards were very much behind the times with some of their technical spec. Paterson, Sons & Co. Ltd.suggests a date after 1927, so it was almost certainly secondhand when they sold it.

[Colin Nicholson]

I think the 2nd last photo of the side rear of the piano may show the crack??
If so, not a difficult repair for a french polisher or piano restorer.
However due to some of the photos being sideways (maybe taken with an iPod?) - and that the "crack" has not been photographed close enough, the photos are rather blurred and distant & difficult to view.

If you can confirm that the crack is on the outside of the casework wood veneer? - near the rear end of the instrument. The 'harp' frame is the black metal framework inside the piano, running along with the strings.... this may be wood or metal?

See photo below - the arrow pointing.... is this the crack?

By the extent of the missing ivories, I would suggest new key tops, simulated grained ivory (off white) is recommended. The keys need to be taken away for a restoration. Matching the old ivory with spare ivory is very difficult due to the grain effect, thickness & appearance of the ivory.... and tend to still look like a patch work quilt!!..... not a very expensive repair. If all of the missing ivories can be found (some may be under the keys).... then quite an expensive job to re-lay the ivory, burnish them and make them match the others - so the synthetic key tops may be a cheaper option. Prices will also vary in the USA to UK prices.

Erardcrack.JPG (13.24 KiB) Viewed 14914 times

Also.... this photo of a modern grand piano, showing the true "harp" shape of the gold cast iron frame surrounding the piano with various brace/ strengthening bars in the middle. .... >>

[Bill Kibby]

The one labelled "photo of crack" shows the name area. I forgot to ask you for the exact wording of the Erard name. Whereabouts on the piano are the markings J I 3.77? It could indicate an 1877 piano, but we need to know the number to find out.

[pamelac123]

Sorry for the delay in responding.

The crack photo previously uploaded was incorrect.

The crack is inside the piano where the three rows of pins are that connect to the strings.

See following photo.

[Bill Kibby]

The wrestplank (pinblock) is often covered with a thin layer called a crossply, which may split. Are you sure the crack goes right through?

Any chance of finding the number to the left of the strings?

[Colin Nicholson]

Oh dear! looks like its curtains then, and a whole row of tuning pins taken out?
If the wrest plank is cracked all the way through, and it doesnt stay in tune - its a major restoration job.
You need to get a tuner to look at it, and maybe beyond repair....

Although you say you have had the piano for 12 years, I just wondered how it got into this state? Surely it hasn't been like this all this time?

I would be interested to see the hitch pins - thats where each string hooks onto at the bottom of the piano - furthest away from the keys. It looks like a piano tuner has removed every right-hand string, and of so, this can only be successfully done if each string has its own hitch pin (eye).... would be good to confirm this mythbuster!!

[pamelac123]

I found a crown with the letters "S O" directly under it inside the piano on one of the black framing pieces inside the piano that run from the front to the back (like "f" on the piano diagram you provided. Getting a photo of the crown has been difficult since it is carved or branded into the side, not painted.

The front label states "Patent Erard London". Below are photos, but the script is hard to see.

It doesn't sound like good news for the piano. Yes, nearly the entire third row of pins has been removed (all but four pins on the left side of the piano). The crack is not on the surface or the veneer of the pinblock. I can see the crack running into the holes (where the pins were) in about 90% of the holes. The depth of the crack varies, but it's at least 1/4 inch.

We purchased the piano in Austin, TX at a fundraiser and don't know anything of it's ownership or history.

I took a better photo of the numbers that are located on inside the piano on the left.

Thanks again for your help!!!

[Colin Nicholson]

The numbers #11377 does look like the serial number and is in the right location next to the first bass string. If this is right - and judging by the very early design of cast frame (black), straight-strung and exposed wrest plank, the serial number suggests a date of around 1833 - 1834. Bill may also confirm this.

The name & letters on the fallboard look genuine enough, but the 'SO' marking is probably just a part number for the frame.

Your piano might be better given to a museum (if selling?) - somewhere that is of historic interest, but to restore this and fit a new "hand-made" wrest plank etc.... you would probably be looking at five figures (excluding cents!!) .... HUGE amount of work needed.

However, if you can still knock a tune out of it now and then, its probably worth keeping it just as a piece of furniture.

Sorry the news is not good - but its best you know.

[Bill Kibby]

This is not a Paris Erard, it follows a completely different sequence of numbers, and I was the first to publish these back in the eighties, although my list has improved a lot since then. The number 11377 suggests that the piano was made in 1868, and this year should be marked on the lefthand end of the action. Your tuner should be able to look for you. I would be interested to know if you find it.

The crown mark would have the letters SC, this appeared on many Erard London pianos, and although we have no idea what it meant, it may have referred to the "music smith" who made the iron parts.

ErardSCmarks42f.jpg (26.88 KiB) Viewed 14789 times