Herrburger Brooks Ltd. action in unknown piano

[wayne32yrs]

Hello,

I'm hoping that you may be able to provide me with some information on my piano. It was purchased second hand by my nanan and grandad aproximatley 1960. It has been handed down to me just over a year ago. The hammer action is Herrburger, Brooks Ltd - London, and the Harp says British Made with a logo on it.

I've supplied some photographs http://www.wj.talktalk.net/Herrburger%2 ... 0Piano.htm

Please not that you may need to run the add-on to view the photos, as I used Microsoft Word to create the webpage, and the photos may take a little while to load, depending on your internet speed, as they are high quality photos.

Thank you

[MarkGoodwinPianos]

I'm going to give some feedback but only in terms of market value. I can't comment on the history, manufacture location or whether it has sentimental value.

Brace yourself for some bad news. I'll be blunt!

The piano is straight-strung: this means that it probably has negative value
The piano is an overdamper: this means that it probably has negative value
The piano has 85 notes instead of the industry standard 88 notes: this is not a big deal but does harm the value

In conclusion your piano, in my opinion, is very likely to have negative value. Negative value means it would cost you more money to move, tune or restore than it is every likely to be worth.

The only way to sell such a piano is either to an unsuspecting bargain hunter or to a friend or relative who values it as a family heirloom.

If it was every played by someone famous and you have photographic evidence then it may have some value. But otherwise, once you have run out of space for it in your home, and if nobody wants it as a nice piece of furniture then it is more than likely only suitable to be thrown away.

DISCLAIMER
Always get the advice of a local piano technician who can physically inspect the piano and give you a written report and approximate valuation.

I hope this has been helpful. If I seem blunt, it's not because I'm trying to be deliberately rude. I'm just giving an industry opinion and I apologise if I've caused any offence due to the piano holding any sentimental value.

All the best
Mark

[Bill Kibby]

Oh! Well! We'd better throw all our antiques away then. I couldn't get the link to work. Herrburger Brooks made the action, not the piano, and the name indicates a date after 1919, but the gold label is probably after 1926. Any further clues will be hidden inside, so have a look at pianogen.org

[MarkGoodwinPianos]

Lol @ Bill
I'm not suggesting throwing away all antiques.
I'm just suggesting that the vast majority of straight-strung, over-damped pianos have little/zero/negative value.

Just my opinion

[Gill the Piano]

...but often still tuneable and good enough to set someone off on piano playing if money is an issue. And you can't budget for sentiment!

[Bill Kibby]

And my point is that value is not just about money, otherwise we'd throw away all the history in the world.

Now that the links have sprung back to life, the piano appears to have a name above the keys, although it is probably meaningless. The interior suggests something from the twenties, and looks more German than British, so it may well be one that imported the strung back and put a British action into it.

[wayne32yrs]

Yes the action is Herrburger, Brooks, and if you could see the photo's the actual Harp of the piano says "British Made" I was guessin mid 1920's so thats probabily right. As for its value, i dont mind how much it is or isnt worth in this case lol, I used to play on it when I was younger, and it was promised to me should anything happen to my grandparents. It means everything to me, and I play on it every day. Thanks guys for the info.

[Gill the Piano]

Guys??

[wayne32yrs]

and girls x

[Colin Nicholson]

"British Made" - I suspect in raised iron lettering - in gold on the cast iron frame behind the strings?? yes, probably mostly UK - but on alot of pianos, the case work/cabinet was imported from Germany. The cast iron frames were obviously produced in the UK, then assembled when other parts arrived at the factory. Just coz it says 'British Made' does not exemplify it from have traces of Deutsch in it.

Regarding the makers name?? - this can only really be worth mentioning (and a slight raise of the eye brow if seen) if the genuine makers name is on the fallboard AND also the same name etched/ decalled inside the piano near the tuning pins. It looks rather like a stencil piano (someone added another name on it).... so the piano is pretty much worthless as Mark suggested.... but if it plays and sounds like a piano, go for it!!

[wayne32yrs]

Well it needs tuning, I've been teaching myself for about 18months now, but its a slow process ha ha, ive put some vids on youtube

http://www.youtube.com/user/wayne26yrs?feature=mhum

Thats if im allowed to post this on here

[Gill the Piano]

Customers of mine have made lovely old piano cases into a drinks cabinet and a fish tank!

[MarkGoodwinPianos]

Those are nice ideas but in practise there are not enough people who want a piano fish tank or drinks cabinet etc to prevent loads of pianos being thrown away.

[wayne32yrs]

Pianolove

Your piano looks nice Wayne!

Thanks, it's had a bit of a make-over, by means of a paint job and hours cleaning all the brass hinges and fittings, and even longer brushing the keys with toothpaste, lol

[wayne32yrs]

oh yeah, n that "logo" (mortiif) on the key cover (fall), i screwed that on lol, x

[wayne32yrs]

Just an update. I had a piano Tuner come around to tune the piano, (yes I've been waiting a very long time lol) and he found a bit more information out. when he removed the first key from the piano, it had the name "Shenstone" engraved on the side of the key.

He has researched it a little himself and sent me this email this morning.

"it would seem that the name Shenstone is the name of the key manufacturers but probably not the piano. I think that it is unusual for a piano to have the action and keys made by different people.
Some suggestion are that it could have been made by Kemble (although I checked this with my piano atlas book yesterday and the number didn't match) or Brasted, a Bansall or CWS piano (the co-op).
If any more information comes in I will forward it to you"

How nice of him

[wayne32yrs]

Another piano tuner has written.....

The piano name does exist, but most likely in badge form and not an original maker (apart from the keyboard!). The one I use to tune though had inlaid brass letters and yes, very well made for a s/s, something similar here. Otherwise historian Bill Kibby has assisted an owner on this forum page.

(link to the page was removed when I copy and pasted)

[Bill Kibby]

If Shentone is stamped on the keys, that is the key makers. They are often found in conjunction with Herrburger Brooks actions, and do not indicate a piano made by Shenstone & Co. Ltd.

[wayne32yrs]

I read one of your other posts Bill, and I'm gonna check behind the felt cover on the back, see if there's anything there, will keep you posted and Thank you for your input

[wayne32yrs]

Hello all, another update.

I haven't got around to taking the felt off from the back yet, but have found a sticker under the first 2 keys;

It says:

Order number: 6200
and there's a date 6/12/40
Name: Spencer
then the number "50"
Size 14 1/2 x 7900 (I think it says 7900 it's hard to make out)

Would you presume that Spencer is the name of the person who purchased the piano in 1940?
Could the piano have been sold second hand? as I assumed it was older than this.

Thank you, Wayne

[Bill Kibby]

This sounds like a typical keyframe label, as described on my website, the NAME would be the piano maker - Spencer, and the date indicates that the keys were completed in 1940. The gold Herrburger Brooks label probably puts it after 1925, and the overdamper action was used in some pianos up to about 1956. Is there a serial number inside the top? I would hope for something in the region of 94000.

[wayne32yrs]

lol, Bill, the original title of this thread;

Re: Herrburger Brooks Ltd, London Serial 93988 with photographs.....

You couldn't be much closer with the serial number

[Bill Kibby]

Sorry I missed that! I had to shorten it because it didn't display on some views.

[wayne32yrs]

I just found this!

Piano Make
Spencer, often connected with Murdoch
Made in
Est. 1883, London UK. older Spencers discontinued 1942. Modern ones mostly 1960 - 1980
Rating when Reconditioned (see makes page)
42-62

Estimated number of pianos in the UK
10,000: 8000 pre 1910, 1500 1910 - 1942, 500 modern ones from various factories.
Dates of manufacture and serial numbers

1895 - 25000
1905 - 38000
1910 - 50500
1915 - 62000
1920 - 70000
1930 - 84635
1940 - 93557

Comments on this make

Common British maker from about 1900 to 1940. Modern ones from different factories. The most common traditional Spencer pianos are pre 1910 walnut or rosewood straight-strung overdampers, which are passable when reconditioned. The next most common Spencer pianos are overstrung underdampers made from about 1910 to 1942, and these vary from reasonable to moderate in quality, when reconditioned. There are also a few (perhaps 200) 4ft 6in to 5ft baby grand Spencers. These are passable to moderate in quality when reconditioned. Modern Spencers are not very common and are very varied, from passable to reasonable in quality.

[Bill Kibby]

If, instead, you search for Spencer on this forum, you will read that there are many problems with the published dates of their numbers, and we receive more enquires about Spencer numbers than any other. It is useful to have your confirmation that the numbers for 1940 are correct. Thanks!

[wayne32yrs]

Thank you Bill

Excellent!

So to summarise, I have a Spencer Piano, 1940's with a Herrburger Brooks Ltd action and a Shenstone Keyboard.

Thanks again