Old Collard & Collard Grand Action Advice

[Collard-Resto]

Hi all,

I have a Collard and Collard Grand which seems to have been made around 1877. Apparently it has an unusual action. Has anyone seen one of these before? (pictures below) There seems to only be a few points that can be adjusted for regulation. Does anyone know what each of these adjustments do?

Also, I am currently replacing the dampers/damper action - so any advice on replacing grand dampers please? :) (In the picture below of the damper action one can see that there are pieces of wood into which the damper wires go. The original system had it so that the damper wires were threaded making it possible to simply "screw" the wires straight into the wood. I had a technician out who tapped threads into new holes in the sides of the wood pieces and put grub screws in thus bringing them "up-to-date" - but the pieces of wood wouldn't hold a thread. So I am now fabricating plastic replacement pieces.)

Thanks in advance.

Dinkum

[Colin Nicholson]

I can only see one picture (not pictures?) .... so cant comment on regulation screws etc.

Quite common of this period to have leather straps acting as hinges - so you will be advised to replace these also - hence removing the damper wire blocks first from the damper levers (the levers have the lead weights inside).

You will have problems with wood of this age, very brittle and old, so I would replace the blocks and make some new ones.

Screwing a "self tapping" screw into the blocks will not work, and will probably split the wood - you will need to fit brass collered studs with an internal thread, along with machines screws (not wood screws) - this is the more "up to date" method.
OR: fill in the existing holes & redrill for the damper wires. If you decide to use machine screws, the threads on the damper wires will have to be removed - or fit new shiny smooth wires with no threads - for better regulation.

However - to make any progress, you need to remove the blocks completely (cut away the leather/cloth strap hinges) and work closely in a vice, or you risk damaging them. Quite a long job...... about 65 dampers?

If you need any damper felt cut for the damper heads - use a guillotine if poss.
This is a specialised job really and you'll need the right tools for the job.

Hope that helps

[Collard-Resto]

Thanks Colin. That was a nice prompt reply. :)

Here are the action pictures. I couldn't attach more than one to my post. I am actually making new bits (damper wire blocks?) out of plastic with a grub screw tapped into each of them. Is there any reason why this shouldn't work?

Also, I have new dampers+damper heads and new wires so that side of things is good. The new heads do not have weights in them. Is that normal?

I'll post a few more action pictures - one at a time!

[Collard-Resto]

With hammers removed

[Barrie Heaton]

Why did you not re felt the old heads much simple way than what you are doing, New heads don't have lead in them and you will find that they are heavier than the originals and this will cause you Inertia problems for the player

To get the new heads to fit the old one you need to fit colts in to the old one but you will have problems with the old wood or get some new body's made and fit them to a new rail but again this will give you a lot of problem when you come to regulate unless you fit anew action as well

The action is an English Direct action BTW very light touch but crap at damping

Barrie,

[Colin Nicholson]

I can see major problems with this in the near future.... ie regulation/ simultaneous lift and generally speaking, poor damping qualities - like Barrie says.

Because the damper blocks and levers are not flanged & pinned (and not screwed onto a rail) the damper head will be very difficult to regulate, and there will be too much movement & sway from the 'hinges' ...... so to start, you need to replace all the leather straps & perhaps use good quality bushing cloth for the inserts (where it slots into the grooves).

If you want your action looking like a lego kit - fine! ...... but be aware that some glues may not adhere properly to plastic. Leather should also be 'pre glued' - left to go hard (and allow glue to soak) - then reglue with hot animal fat glue (pearl glue).... then you will form a proper bond between wood & leather. If you cut corners now - you will soon see the end result.

I dont really see the point in you asking for advise when you have already told us you are fitting plastic blocks!!!!...... have you ever seen a Lidner action? ---- you'll get my drift when you come across one.

Yeh.... whats wrong with the original damper heads? .... if some are leaded - its there for a reason.... and you must replace the felt using the same heads. If some are scratched at the top - just sand them down and apply some black french polish.

The main issue is gluing plastic to leather/cloth?

Dont forget, there is sideways movement from leather/cloth, so the original materials will have lost their strength in regaining a good perpendicular lift. New leather will help this.... but dampers having strap hinges usually have a mind of their own.... and I wouldn't touch one with a barge pole! ...... there might as well be some sellotape instead...... so the damping quality is not just the felt on the head, the strings, weight of the parts and the bushing guide holes for the damper wires will need to be looked at. I would also weigh a plastic block, then compare it to a wooden one. The wooden one will be lighter than when it was new because the wood has dried out - so plastic should be a little heavier.... but not too heavy, or it will affect the balance, and touch weight of the keys.

Too much to mention here though - but thats just for starters!

[Collard-Resto]

Thanks for the replies, Barrie and Colin.

I'll explain the story behind the piano to make clear what I am trying to do with it.

When I bought the piano it all worked fine except for the fact that the dampers didn't damp properly. So I had a technician out to replace them. He first "reconditioned" the damper action to some degree and then re-felted the old heads. But when he went to put it all back together it still wasn't damping properly. He reckoned that the old damper heads were too short. So he sold me new dampers+heads. (The new bass ones are twice the length of the old bass ones.) But he then decided he wasn't going to do the job (for health reasons) - which is why I am now on here asking questions.


So, I have two problems, the first is that the damper wire blocks (is that the correct term?) are ruined because he tried to insert a grub screw into the side of each of them (first he drilled a hole, then he tapped a thread, and then put a grub screw in - a proper grub screw, not a wood screw) but the wood won't hold a thread. He was going to replace them with plastic but then he disappeared on me - so that is why I was going to try and make some new ones out of plastic. I am not fixed on the idea but I have bought the materials and it does seem like plastic is the only thing that will hold a grub screw.

The idea Colin conveyed here is exactly what I am thinking of doing with the plastic:

OR: fill in the existing holes & redrill for the damper wires. If you decide to use machine screws, the threads on the damper wires will have to be removed - or fit new shiny smooth wires with no threads - for better regulation.

The existing wood is brittle and a lot of them are broken, etc, etc, so I can't use the existing wood. I am not fussed at all about how the action looks and I would like the action to be a bit heavier too so is there any other downsides to using plastic?

Also, the technician I was using was thinking of using those flexible plastic hinges used on model aircraft to replace the leather that connects the damper lever to the damper wire block. Is that crazy or would that fix the "mind of their own" symptom a little?




The second problem, which is not so immediate, is the regulation. I will post my questions regarding this problem later - if I get that far!



Please bear in mind I am just trying to make the thing work properly, not restore it to like new. I am not concerned if the touch is a bit different than it was originally. (I am only Grade 3) Though I am not going to be happy if the touch ends up really uneven or it rings on forever!

Cheers,
Dinkum

[Colin Nicholson]

I can imagine your piano technician running a mile, and seeing the dust trail behind him!.... joking aside though.
Firstly, fitting new dampers is a specialised job, and even after my years of training - I would think twice before doing a job like this. The dampers ---- where are they? please send a photo of a few re-felted.

When relaying the damper heads back onto the strings - because mostly they rely on gravity (and not spring assisted like upright pianos).... they sometimes need to be weighed down with bean bags - or something reasonably heavy - for a few days. This will then seat the felt properly into the strings. However - your action is similar to some Broadwood squares I've seen, and the dampers are tiny .... and of no use.

I think I have already pointed out why wood is better than plastic. You will also have to try out your experiment of using model aircraft hinges - no idea here, you have lost me!

Those blocks are quite easy to make out of wood - about a 4ft length of cedar or maple, then router the bottoms (45 degrees) to get it looking like the hull of a boat - slice it all the way along with a band saw to get your grooves, then slice the wood into small block sections (about 65).... then drill your holes.

What size grub screws are you using?
For modern dampers - the screw thread is about 2mm, and the brass threaded sleeve fits inside.... the screw head is about 3.7mm.... so very small parts - any bigger, and the wood or plastic may split. The sleeves also need to eased gently into the wood - there is usually a slot for a screw driver to ease/ push fit them in.

Here is a quick diagram ......

Damper block assembly

[Barrie Heaton]

Fitting a new set of heads as Colin has pointed out good fun on a modern piano As i stated in my first post damping on these pianos was never great so you are changing the sound of the piano

From memory the damper bodies are glued down not screwed, if so, you need to pilot a hole for each body so you can put screws in to hold You could go down this road a full set of new damper body sections you would need to turn the flanges

The trick to fitting new heads is constance in the wire bending so the heads sit correct on the string and the wire is located in the correct place for the hole buy a few spar damper wires to practice on . As your piano is a straight strung there will be only a little bending needed

If you want to keep the old damper bodies then before you drill them soak them in Apoxy Resin or paint it on this will give the wood some extra support Next you will need some velum as those hinges will go. So you need to learn how to change the velum hinge - the trick is in the glue you need animal glue

Seems a lot of tuners are walking away from jobs lately had a call from a guy that was left high and dry with his grand that had been de strung

Barrie,

[Collard-Resto]

Hi,

Back in the piano fixing mood at last!

Firstly, I must thank you for all the advice, Colin and Barrie. It is wonderful to have such professional advice so freely available and so quick.

I've been trying to find replacement parts, but I've had no success. There don't seem to be many aftermarket 1878 piano part makers around...

Anyway, I am now back to tossing up the plastic vs wood again. (If I go plastic I can have it playing in a few days...) I have just one specific question: what effects will adding weight to the back end of the keys have? Colin said something about balance before, will that have a serious implication? (Please excuse the greeeeeeen-ness.)

I am under the impression that you can buy weights to add to the back of the keys to make the touch a bit heavier. Won't this throw the action out of balance? Or are they for uprights only?


Please bear in mind that I am not overly concerned at changing the touch (I do want it even - just the key weight is what I am not concerned about), I just want to make it play properly again. I do want it to have proper, good, dynamics though. I need to be able to impress my friend with the AMUS. It seems such a shame that so many of these fine creations are not fit to be used for performance level piano and that it is not worth fixing them to be so.


And Colin, there are 62 dampers. I should have answered that question before. (Also, if I go for the wood, which I am leaning towards , where do I find those brass threaded sleeves and screws please? And will any cedar or maple do?)

Cheers,
Dinkum

[Colin Nicholson]

I think this subject may beyond the normal realms of this forum - just general advice can be offered really. Even regulation books state this subject needs a volume of its own, and extra training needed..... very specialised subject.

Here is a general overview .....

Firstly, you need to weigh a wooden damper block, then compare it with your plastic version. If the plastic is slightly heavier, by about 2 grams - should be OK.... however, I would use wood always, and check the weight. If you start using plastic and modify the original parts - you just need to do it yourself, cant offer you advice any clearer than I have already said.

Touch-weight (weight-off) is the amount of weight needed for a piano key to be depressed under the weight of the mechanism - usually around 52g in the bass, tapering to about 47g in the treble (Steinway's rules) .... however, the action needs to be finely regulated and all working smoothly. The inertia of the key movement, combined with its balance etc is set in the factory - not to be messed with - and if lead is fitted or not, so be it .... dont change it whatever you do.

Touch-weight is measured using brass weights (see image below) - and depending on the piano, they are adjusted accordingly by removing or adding the brass "washers" - each one a different weight. There is a special technique to measure touch-weight - so best you just leave that.
If a customer's piano feels very sluggish/ heavy - or if they mention it to me (which is better than me creating!) - then the touch weight will be heavier if the keys stick, or maybe some repinning needed - whatever, but its always measured without the damper. By resting the selected weights on a key - the weights should not move at first, until you slowly press the sustain pedal - then the key should very slowly drop - however this not always guaranteed to find the problems with heavy actions.

After a full restoration, I always check the weight - and its usually good, but I wouldn't dream of adding more weight to the keys unless the customer asked for it - then again, it might throw the inertia out - so best left alone.

I dont know where to get those screws & sleeves from - nothing like that in the parts book. If I did a job like that, I would probably contact Steinway or someone/ local piano shop etc & salvage them from an old action.... or get my mate to make some - but would be expensive..... but then again, not worth the hassle!

If you make the blocks yourself - either wood will be OK, or hornbeam - so long as its hard wood, and its 3/4 sawn .... to be honest, I would probably have to chat to my old college guru who is an expert on that - or my mate who is a good carpenter, he could make some..... but dont know prices.

Right.... here is that image >>>

Key touch weights

[Colin Nicholson]

OK.... here is a suggestion, but personally, myself, I would probably make the blocks from scratch and get someone to machine some screws & sleeves - depends on other things though.

As Barrie suggested - you can order damper lever carriages complete with flange, block and screw & sleeve - but you have to order it as a complete set, as the brass sleeve is factory fitted - so you cant buy the blocks or screws separate...... unless you make them.

So.... you could buy about 64 complete damper levers (have 2 spare just in case), then remove the centre pin from the damper block - on modern actions, these are incorporated into a bushed flange - but yours is a velum/leather strip - acting as a hinge. When the block separates from the lever - you will basically be left with a block of wood with a gap at the bottom - this area is where the pin tightly "push fits" into the lever. Then cut some small blocks of wood to fill in the gaps - glue into place, then recut/ re-profile each damper block into the right shape. The blocks come pre-drilled for the damper wires, and all fitted with the sleeve & screw - then just discard (or donate) the other bits.

Here is a brief image showing what to do >>>
Note that the right image shows the block from the side, however it passes either side of the lever and secured with a centre pin - left image (top) shows what it looks like from the front, and the left lower image shows the extra piece of wood (grey) ......

Damper block modification

If anyone else has any suggestions???? !!! ...... however, dont ask me about regulating & adjusting them afterwards!!!! ...... best to pay a technician to do it.
There will be alot of fettling & modifications to do, but at least all the wood is mostly pre-cut for you.

[anglophile]

Hi Dinkum. Did you ever get the Dampers on your Collard & Collard to work to your satisfaction?

I've read this post with great interest because I recently bought an 8" Collard & Collard straight strung grand piano. Every square inch of it shows it was built by people that cared and knew what they were doing! I believe it dates to the 1860's. The frame is a fabrication rather than cast. The action is identical to the images earlier posted by Dinkum, and I have the same problem with the Dampers.

[Pianos La Haye NL]

Sometimes one has to accept the consequences of the concept of a particular design. A C&C grand from the 1860's will not dampen properly according to modern standards, and I call that "character" !

So it's the overdamper concept translated into a grand. The pianos had to sound a bit on, and people probably liked that very much in those days. If they really would have wanted differently, they could have made larger dampers then as well. It's not like people in the 1860's didn't know what they were doing.

Has nobody thought of that before ? So please - dear colleagues - do not temper with our precious antiques.

Plastic in in such an action... BRRRR Sheer horror to me.