Hastelow & Co

Franzz · Post by **Franzz** » 27 Dec 2011, 17:36

Hello everyone,

I've buyed an old Hastelow Piano to restore it!

Can someone tell me when/where it's made?
There's a number inside: 5294

Thanx already!

Edit: Link to pictures

Post by **Bill Kibby** » 27 Dec 2011, 19:25

This Hastelow vista is a sketch of one I used to tune, made after 1855, possibly around 1862, and with the number 5526, so probably later than yours, and made in Hackney Road, London. In 1855, they were still called Caperoe & Hastelow. It is not possible to date the piano exactly by its number. Can you upload some photos?

Franzz · Post by **Franzz** » 28 Dec 2011, 00:03

Ive uploaded some pictures in the 'advice' corner.
I'll make some more pictures from the inside and put them on pucasa with the original sizes! The piano is already under construction. It looks great on the inside!

It will be a long way to restore it, but with al the tips and trick of this forum.. Great to see al the huge music and piano fans!

Franzz · Post by **Franzz** » 28 Dec 2011, 00:15

Ive uploaded some pictures in the 'advice' corner.
I'll make some more pictures from the inside and put them on pucasa with the original sizes! The piano is already under construction. It looks great on the inside!

It will be a long way to restore it, but with al the tips and trick of this forum.. Great to see al the huge music and piano fans!

Franzz · Post by **Franzz** » 28 Dec 2011, 09:03

Here are some pictures!

Post by **Bill Kibby** » 28 Dec 2011, 12:42

That is fairly similar to the one I tuned many years ago, and in many respects, it is a "Cottage Piano", although some people argue that it would have to have tapered hexagonal legs to qualify. Have a look at...
http://www.piano-tuners.org/piano-forum ... f=2&t=8718

This style of legs was mainly used from about 1860 to 1878.

Franzz · Post by **Franzz** » 28 Dec 2011, 14:00

Thanks for the explanation!

So the piano is between 133 and 151 years old as I understand.
The exact date will never be uncovered i think!

I will have some clear pictures of the piano as he lies apart.

I am now looking at where I can find pads and cork to replace everything.

Some things need to be repaired, but all 165 strings are intact!

Post by **Bill Kibby** » 28 Dec 2011, 17:39

I don't think you will find any cork in there! I tend to think in terms of years rather than age because then, the figure stays constant, even if someone reads it in ten years time, so let's say maybe it was around 1859. The most likely place for a date is the keys, so have a look at "Gen about pianos" at pianogen.org for more clues.

Franzz · Post by **Franzz** » 30 Dec 2011, 12:37

I have no keys.. thats the problem

Thanx already for the answers! This afternoon I wil make some pics of the piano!

Post by **Bill Kibby** » 30 Dec 2011, 22:58

I'm confused. What are those black and white things then?

Franzz · Post by **Franzz** » 31 Dec 2011, 10:11

My father in law told me yesterday that a key can be something else than something to open a door with...

My English is'nt that good

He's busy with the piano, cause I've worked this week

On the most left key there is a number.. 63

Here some new pictures!

Link to pictures

Post by **Bill Kibby** » 31 Dec 2011, 13:33

Your English is considerably better than many English people's! In various languages, the "key" that unlocks the sound is the same word as the key for a door lock.

I don't know what 63 means, key numbers are not usually helpful. Have a look at all the surfaces of each key, starting from the left.

I have had a look at the photos, but they are too small to show much. Can your camera produce higher resolution?

Post by **Bill Kibby** » 01 Jan 2012, 14:19

Sorry, I have been coughing the new year in, and ignored what you were saying. Piano locks are very simple, and if you unscrew it and take it to a locksmith, he or she will be able to make a key that works.

Franzz · Post by **Franzz** » 02 Jan 2012, 13:52

I wish you get well soon!

The lock is a great idea! I will ask my father in law the unscrew it!

And if there are more numbers on the keys?? I do not know

, but I'll ask, I'm at work now.

In my web are more pictures on the forum because I have them scaling.

link to album

Franzz · Post by **Franzz** » 13 Jan 2012, 14:18

I've uploaded some new pictures! (date: 07 januari 2012)

Link to pictures

Last Saturday we almost sanded all parts.
Upcoming Saturday, we want sand the final parts.
Then we will put the items in the primer.

Now is the sticker on the top cover, except I think it is difficult to keep it in connection with the sanding and painting.
Do you know if someone could make a replica?

Colin Nicholson · Post by **Colin Nicholson** » 13 Jan 2012, 17:46

Most interesting.... and good luck with the restoration.

From personal experience though - I think before you start stripping this piano down, or ordering bits etc., you need to get a tuner out to check to see that the piano is "structurally sound" for a tuning - assuming you want it tuned? Many pianos like these are now condemned & un-tuneable. The tuner will need to tune most of the piano, check the tuning pin torque, condition of the strings/ bridge - and with this piano having a wooden frame, some pianos like this are difficult to stay in tune for more than a few days - and a piano tuner may walk away.... so unless you've done that, if not, get it checked out.

Watched a restoration program on TV last night "Restoration Man" - and this couple converted an old water tower (dated about 1840) into a luxury home.... however, they had to have it checked out - brickwork etc before work started to fit new ridge beams & various levels of flooring.... same as old pianos!!......

anyway....

I doubt if you will find a replica of this decal (sticker).... however try Pierce atlas: >>

http://www.piercepianoatlas.com

they do millions of decals - not sure if they could make on from a photo, but you could try. Send them an email - ask for Larry or Kim - they are based in Albuquerqy, New Mexico, so would involve an international bankers draft & shipping costs.

When you come to eventually tune it - presuming you will book a piano tuner? ,,,, dont forget to ask them to bring an oblong tuning lever - different to a standard tuning lever (star shaped)

If Pierce cant help you, just mask the decal off, strip down around it, and touch up later.

Franzz · Post by **Franzz** » 16 Jan 2012, 12:13

Thank you Colin, we have lots of fun in the restoration.

As regards the tuning ... We first want all broken and damaged parts replaced.
The felt and the hammers are all to adjust and replaceable.
This is the first priority.

We bought the piano for later (when we married), as a piece of furniture in the livingroom.
Currently, the piano in a garage where it is cold.
When everything is ready, it will stand in the living at my parents in law.
Here the temperature is better, and then we'll see if its tuneable

.

Pierce Atlas I've emailed. Now hoping for a positive response!
Thanks for any information.

Colin Nicholson · Post by **Colin Nicholson** » 16 Jan 2012, 15:49

Franzz wrote:Thank you Colin, we have lots of fun in the restoration.

As regards the tuning ... We first want all broken and damaged parts replaced.
The felt and the hammers are all to adjust and replaceable.
This is the first priority..

Mmmm I would have to disagree with your priorities! .... buts its your call, and afterall - as you say - lots of fun!!
Just be careful though spending money, then finding out it cant be tuned. Many parts such as hammer shanks, jacks, flanges etc can be replaced - but the wrest plank can not be replaced.... and moving a piano from a garage into a warm home may cause serious damage in the long-run.
Hope Pierce get back to you.... they may be able to do you a "custom" decal - but nothing like the one you have on display. Some piano restorers also stock gold lettering.
If you DO manage to get something similar - always order 2 of them! They are tricky to apply - using a tacky varnish is needed, then applying water to the top layer to remove the paper protections.... you only get one chance at getting it right - so order another just in case.

Good luck

Post by **Gill the Piano** » 16 Jan 2012, 17:15

A good signwriter could complete the decal by hand; might even turn out cheaper, as only a few bits of it are missing.

Colin Nicholson · Post by **Colin Nicholson** » 16 Jan 2012, 19:35

I once asked a local art college if any of the students were interested in some paintwork on an old piano. I tried to rescue the original decal before repolishing, but some of the masking tape pulled off bits of the decal edges (twirly golden bits!).... it took her about 3 hours to fill in the gaps, and it looked great - and she just asked for £20!

Not sure about the price of full decals, but when I ordered (in 2007) about 5 numbers for a Steinway serial number, and about 10 miniature numbers for the string gauges - I think it only cost about £12.00 inc. postage from USA.... not bad!

It would be better though to preserve the original decal, as best as possible - and maybe use low-tack masking tape, or even black insulating tape....

Post by **Bill Kibby** » 16 Jan 2012, 22:01

The alternative is to photoshop the image and practise printing it to the right size and colour.

Colin Nicholson · Post by **Colin Nicholson** » 17 Jan 2012, 01:48

I suppose there must be some kind of photographic 'self adhesive" acetate to print it on - but the question is how thick is it.
Does anyone know the actual thickness of a decal? .... must be fractions of a mill!

I could probably quite easily touch - up a decal on my Photoshop Elements, but then how would I transfer it to decal paper? .... someone must be able to do that...

Franzz · Post by **Franzz** » 17 Jan 2012, 11:31

Colin Nicholson wrote:I suppose there must be some kind of photographic 'self adhesive" acetate to print it on - but the question is how thick is it.
Does anyone know the actual thickness of a decal? .... must be fractions of a mill!

I could probably quite easily touch - up a decal on my Photoshop Elements, but then how would I transfer it to decal paper? .... someone must be able to do that...

Colin Nicholson wrote:
Franzz wrote:Thank you Colin, we have lots of fun in the restoration.

As regards the tuning ... We first want all broken and damaged parts replaced.
The felt and the hammers are all to adjust and replaceable.
This is the first priority..

Mmmm I would have to disagree with your priorities! .... buts its your call, and afterall - as you say - lots of fun!!
Just be careful though spending money, then finding out it cant be tuned. Many parts such as hammer shanks, jacks, flanges etc can be replaced - but the wrest plank can not be replaced.... and moving a piano from a garage into a warm home may cause serious damage in the long-run.
Hope Pierce get back to you.... they may be able to do you a "custom" decal - but nothing like the one you have on display. Some piano restorers also stock gold lettering.
If you DO manage to get something similar - always order 2 of them! They are tricky to apply - using a tacky varnish is needed, then applying water to the top layer to remove the paper protections.... you only get one chance at getting it right - so order another just in case.

Good luck

Its not a must that the piano is 100% playable! I even cant play a piano, but ists more the fun we have of restoring it!
And when every key makes a sound... thats good enough for us

.

And the total costs.... some sandpaper, a primer and a heater for the garage

Colin Nicholson wrote:I suppose there must be some kind of photographic 'self adhesive" acetate to print it on - but the question is how thick is it.
Does anyone know the actual thickness of a decal? .... must be fractions of a mill!

I could probably quite easily touch - up a decal on my Photoshop Elements, but then how would I transfer it to decal paper? .... someone must be able to do that...

Printing a decal is not a problem, my colleague can print it.

I've asked Pierce Piano to make a decal... 60 USD for the decal and 16 USD for shipping!

I think we try to save the original

Gill the Piano wrote:A good signwriter could complete the decal by hand; might even turn out cheaper, as only a few bits of it are missing.

And asking a good sighwriter... good Idea, I knew someone who ca do that!

Bill Kibby wrote:The alternative is to photoshop the image and practise printing it to the right size and colour.

And photoshop... I cant play with that.. I would I could right now!

Franzz · Post by **Franzz** » 18 Jan 2012, 10:03

Yesterday we've finished sanding the piano!
The entire piano sat under a thick coat, and the dust caps have their work well done.

I'll upload some new pictures this week.

Next week the painting starts!

Colin Nicholson · Post by **Colin Nicholson** » 18 Jan 2012, 14:41

Look forward to more pictures!

How are you "painting" it?

Franzz · Post by **Franzz** » 18 Jan 2012, 16:11

First we put it in a black primer.
Than we sand the piano light again.
Finally we will have the piano black paint.
I do not know if this gloss will be, or that we work with a clear coat over the black paint.

Someone tips?

And photo's will follow tonight I think! There already on my laptop.

Edit: I've uploaded some pictures. (17 januari 2012)
On one of the pictures u see one of the keys..
In that key is written: B. Claydon
Does someone know what that is?

Franzz · Post by **Franzz** » 06 Oct 2012, 20:58

Hello there,

It's a long time ago, i've bin online.
Today I've made some pics of our finished piano.

Its painted twice, almost everything is ready.. but what that is I'll write on the bottem of this reply, first some pictures!

https://plus.google.com/photos/10542654 ... 8284277617

What I like is the original decal.. It's still on the piano, and looks amazing.

We've tried to tune the piano.. but unfortunaly... its not possible.. Whatever we've tried, it sounds horrible!

What we're looking for is an digital piano what we can fit in. Does anyone now how we can make that fit? I know that its possible, but how.. thats the next challenge!

Post by **Bill Kibby** » 06 Oct 2012, 21:18

I am surprised you wanted my old, crude drawing on there. That piano also had the top key imprinted J.Claydon. It's very dark for a cottage piano, but it will no doubt match the digital piano. Yamaha are one of the makers who have a digital piano that is shallow front-to-back. The trick is being able to reach the controls, and you may have to settle for 6 octaves.

I wish you were nearby, I'd try to find a way to sort out the loose pins. I hope you haven't boxed in the front? Still, it won't spoil the tonal quality if it's electronic!

It is worth remembering that some tuners don't make much effort to try to tune antique pianos, so a second opinion is worth having.

Claydon could be a worker at the key makers, or at Hastelow's works. Is the name imprinted or just written? And where is it exactly?

Franzz · Post by **Franzz** » 08 Oct 2012, 09:23

Bill,

We've had an piano tuners in our house, and he've tried it. Not just an amateur.

The colour is dark indeed, but we like it this way (a lot).
We've bought ourselfs a house last month and the piano will be in te livingroom when we've finished the house.

The inscription of Claydon is imprinted on (what i think) the last key.

Post by **Bill Kibby** » 08 Oct 2012, 11:41

I wasn't suggesting that your tuner was an amateur, what I meant is that some tuners make more effort than others to try to save antique pianos, and some have more experience in finding ways around the problem. You will find some information at
http://pianogen.org/central.html

Franzz · Post by **Franzz** » 07 Jan 2014, 22:37

Well, here I am... its a long time ago, bought a house, married in june last year and now... its time to build in a digital piano in the old piano!

Last saturday we'we bought an Roland F20

This evening we've started to remove all the parts on the old piano.

Photo's will follow tomorrow!

Post by **vernon** » 07 Jan 2014, 22:54

sounds like a result.
I bet Bill's not pleased. Neither am I.

Post by **Bill Kibby** » 07 Jan 2014, 22:57

I have to admit that it is a little better than scrapping the whole thing.

Franzz · Post by **Franzz** » 08 Jan 2014, 08:48

It was a complete new piano (and the old one to the scrapyard) or this.
And this is much more fun!

Here some pictures of the start:

Yeah.. thats empty:

The new?, yeah, brand new digital piano. Sounds really good!

The problem of the roland is... it's to wide. We have to remove the sidepanels and still its to wide (we knew that).

Whats next.. We have to cut pieces of the piano out to fit in the new piano.
The result have to be an OEM looking piano!

Post by **vernon** » 08 Jan 2014, 10:50

presumably you will de-string it otherwise it will hum like a beehive..
As Bill says, the conversion is better than scrapping it.

Franzz · Post by **Franzz** » 08 Jan 2014, 13:50

Its all empty, including all strings!.

And thanx for the support.. I know its hard to see, but when we're done we can play piano agian!

Post by **Bill Kibby** » 08 Jan 2014, 13:50

I have no idea what OEM means, but I think it is a way of saving a little of the history without having to put up with a dilapidated instrument. Why would you want the speakers facing the strings? Surely there are opportunities to face them towards the pianist?

I do find it odd that people are so set on having 88 notes when nothing much is written for those notes. A shorter compass would have solved the fitting problem.

Franzz · Post by **Franzz** » 08 Jan 2014, 15:35

OEM = Original equipment manufacturer.
It is nog original but it looks like...

The speakers are facing the string side, Facing towards the pianist means cutting the wires, and thats not wat we want.
When the piano is broken, we can rebuild it as it was. (3 years guarranty).

The piano is 1.26m wide and the space in the old piano is 1.28m
We have loosened the sides and now we'll need 0,015m.
That's the thickness of your finger

By cutting a litte on the inside the piano looks 100% the same..
Only the keys and the controlpanel reminds the different.
Do you close the cover.. u cant see the different!

And we could choose 76 keys... It looks horror when u have so much space on both sides.

Colin Nicholson · Post by **Colin Nicholson** » 09 Jan 2014, 01:09

Very interesting!
Are you going to fit a sustain (damper) pedal?

Franzz · Post by **Franzz** » 09 Jan 2014, 22:22

Yep, thats the idea.
We've just finnished all the measurements on the old piano!
The cover of the new piano is almost complete removed, only the rear of the piano will be used in the old piano.

Why? Cause al electronic parts are screwed on it. And less cutting in the old piano.
Only the small controlpanel and the keys will be visual.

The damper is an other ''problem''.
Idea is to fit the damper inside the piano,and make an construction between the ''old'' damper and the new one.
From the outside it looks the same, but when u push on it, u will push at the same time the new one.

Saterday after 14:00 we will start cutting in the old piano.. Pictures will follow!

Post by **Bill Kibby** » 10 Jan 2014, 01:04

Can I just say it is not a DAMPER or a DAMPER PEDAL! That would imply that it damps the sound, but it does the opposite, so by all means call it a DAMPER LIFT PEDAL, but SUSTAIN PEDAL is the more usual, or SUSTAINING PEDAL.

I know, Roland find it convenient to mark the socket "damper" - I have two Rolands.

Franzz · Post by **Franzz** » 10 Jan 2014, 15:03

Wow, learnd something new!
Didn't know that!

I'm looking forward to keep going on the piano!

Franzz · Post by **Franzz** » 11 Jan 2014, 22:57

Well, we've worked hard and the result is...

https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/1054 ... 8284277617

It works, looks great already and fits perfectly.
Next saturday we'll hope to finish everything.

The control panel wil be under the piano. So when u see the piano... u can't see its an digital one

Post by **Bill Kibby** » 12 Jan 2014, 00:14

Shame about the black paint, but I suppose it's easier than French polishing.

Colin Nicholson · Post by **Colin Nicholson** » 12 Jan 2014, 02:00

can't see any pics of the digital piano installed? .... just the old keyboard

Franzz · Post by **Franzz** » 13 Jan 2014, 08:27

Can u see the (crappy) picture now?

And u cant see anything of that paint Bill. Its just when u look at the keys u cant see some light trough it.

Post by **Bill Kibby** » 13 Jan 2014, 11:09

I'm sorry, I don't understand. Isn't the whole piano painted black?

Franzz · Post by **Franzz** » 13 Jan 2014, 12:26

Yea, the whole piano is black. High gloss.

The wood what was on it was damaged a lot.

Franzz · Post by **Franzz** » 20 Jan 2014, 09:00

Yea! Done! We've made it, everything is working. And it looks great and souds even better!